Look you are making a standard attack with a flat percentile chance of landing it, and as you level up you find it easier to land normal attacks, by spending exp on stat advances, and there are more bonuses to landing attacks than there are to avoiding them.

When you make a special attack, like a called shot, you should compare DOS just as you do when making a full auto attack,

As it stand you are all saying you should get super special hits with basic attacks, because spending exp to avoid them easier is some how not as valid as the exp spent on making them easier, which makes zero sense.

Basic attacks should not ever be super special because nine times out of ten, there are always more bad guys than the good ones.

As you advance you find it easier to land attacks, it doesn't meant you landed some super special killer combo hit

Well, if you scored 4+ DoS, then your attack was a super special killer execution even with the normal melee attack action. That's why we have the DoS system after all.

But you do not because DOS do not matter, nor are they factored into the maths on whether you hit or miss, I cannot say this any clearer, you either hit or you miss, whether you roll well or not has zero bearing on the result, you either rolled under or you rolled over, and the issue is arising here because you think it does mean something when you roll well, well it doesn't and it never ever has in any of the WH40k games.

it does with auto fire though...

But you do not because DOS do not matter

Of course it does! DoS from the attack test transfers to damage (you can replace one damage dice with the number of DoS you scored) so it must represent something, doesn't it?

Balenorn reminds me of the people who get mad that in D&D 4E fighters have interesting moves they can do other than standing and swinging their sword. Truly it goes against the laws of nature.

Balenorn, consider this: why does DoS not matter on a single shot attack? In a system where DoS is considered for just about everything (especially in combat), why does this one particular action not care about DoS?

This new beta update must be making me crazy because I'm finding myself agreeing with GuantZero. Dodge subtracting DoS from the attack should absolutely reappear. It makes DoS matter on standard attacks, which is a good thing. The first beta got that (and a lot of the other Skill system changes) right.

Aye, you boys have convinced me. Cheers!

If CPS and me should agree on something - believe me - then it is the objective truth. ;D

If CPS and me should agree on something - believe me - then it is the objective truth. ;D

Add me to the list of people agreeing that evasion should be an opposed test - and I'm usually in the middle ground between Gaunt and CPS - I've been running evasion (both dodge and parry) in DH1 in this way for years and never had a problem with loosing characters, although from what I've read around these forums my PC seem a little more survivable than most.

Regards

Surak

People have always talked up Dark Heresy to be more deadly than it really is.

Well, if only to play a devil's advocate, I think Balenorn may have a point.

Consider the following:

1. A vindicare assassin (BS score 55+, aiming bonus 60+, etc) is making a called head shot. There are two ways he can do it - properly and "from the hip".

1.1A. If he is doing it right, then he is concealed half a mile away from his target, his rifle is silenced, the target is rigged with a homing beacon and is asleep. Under these circumstances, the target has no chance to dodge because it is unaware of the attack to begin with. So it gets no save and - unless the assassin botches the roll - is pretty much doomed.

1.1B. The same coniditions, but the target is awake. Just the same - the bullet comes from very far away and with a nearly supersonic speed. No knowledge of the shot, no dodge attempt.

1.1C. And then, the same assassin is firing straight in the face of the target that is aware of the fact. That's a whole different story, because, no matter how cunning his aim is, he is still making just a single shot. The bullet is away and now it comes down purely to the reflexes of its intended target - it's not like the sniper can mentally alter the bullet trajectory, after all. DoS have no business here - they were used to determine the lethality of the shot if it hits, but they rightly have no bearing on the hit chances.

2. A master swordsman, inquisitor Conan of Ordo Pathos, is attacking someone with his Sword of Auto-Hit +60.

2.1. Now, he IS a master swordsman and as such he knows a lot of cool and lethal moves, with which to throw his target off balance. That's what Killing Strike, Feint and all other things are for - to ensure your target gets no chance to dodge / parry in the first place.

2.2. But if this great warrior only makes simplistic moves, bellowing "Hasan chops!"... well, he can be sure the target will try to evade. And then it's only just a single basic attack, driven by muscles and subject to laws of physics - it is no easier nor harder to evade due to renown of the swordsman

To sum up, think about this in this way: if the character is a great warrior, he should know his moves, And if he does, his target WILL die with no chance to evade, but If he plays it stupid, well... to be blunt, it's his own problems.

And also consider the opposite situation:

3. An amateur shoota-boy-wannabe with his BS 24 is making a shot at PC character (a high-level assassin). Ork scores 3 out of 24 and gets 2 full DoS. Assassin scores 84 out of 91... a basic success. Under current rules assassin gets to live as he easily dodged the clumsy ork shot, under DoS-based version he... well, maybe not dies, but is obviously not well. A rather grotesque situation, IMHO.

Well, if only to play a devil's advocate, I think Balenorn may have a point.

Consider the following:

1. A vindicare assassin (BS score 55+, aiming bonus 60+, etc) is making a called head shot. There are two ways he can do it - properly and "from the hip".

1.1A. If he is doing it right, then he is concealed half a mile away from his target, his rifle is silenced, the target is rigged with a homing beacon and is asleep. Under these circumstances, the target has no chance to dodge because it is unaware of the attack to begin with. So it gets no save and - unless the assassin botches the roll - is pretty much doomed.

1.1B. The same coniditions, but the target is awake. Just the same - the bullet comes from very far away and with a nearly supersonic speed. No knowledge of the shot, no dodge attempt.

I would handle these two situations narratively.

1.1C. And then, the same assassin is firing straight in the face of the target that is aware of the fact. That's a whole different story, because, no matter how cunning his aim is, he is still making just a single shot. The bullet is away and now it comes down purely to the reflexes of its intended target - it's not like the sniper can mentally alter the bullet trajectory, after all. DoS have no business here[/b - they were used to determine the lethality of the shot if it hits, but they rightly have no bearing on the hit chances.

I could not disagree more. You can't just drop a statement like "DoS have no business" here like it's some fact handed down by God. Back up that statement with any kind of justification.

2. A master swordsman, inquisitor Conan of Ordo Pathos, is attacking someone with his Sword of Auto-Hit +60.

2.1. Now, he IS a master swordsman and as such he knows a lot of cool and lethal moves, with which to throw his target off balance. That's what Killing Strike, Feint and all other things are for - to ensure your target gets no chance to dodge / parry in the first place.

Feint and Killing Blow are both exceptions to the normal rules for attacking and dodging. A master swordsman should probably be making use of these options, but we're talking about the dodge system in a general sense.

2.2. But if this great warrior only makes simplistic moves, bellowing "Hasan chops!"... well, he can be sure the target will try to evade. And then it's only just a single basic attack, driven by muscles and subject to laws of physics - it is no easier nor harder to evade due to renown of the swordsman

But it is (read: should be) easier or harder to evade based on the skill with which the attack was delivered. How famous the guy happens to be has nothing to do with the mechanics of evasion. (Side note: if you want a game where this is the case, check out FATE)

To sum up, think about this in this way: if the character is a great warrior, he should know his moves, And if he does, his target WILL die with no chance to evade, but If he plays it stupid, well... to be blunt, it's his own problems.

And also consider the opposite situation:

3. An amateur shoota-boy-wannabe with his BS 24 is making a shot at PC character (a high-level assassin). Ork scores 3 out of 24 and gets 2 full DoS. Assassin scores 84 out of 91... a basic success. Under current rules assassin gets to live as he easily dodged the clumsy ork shot, under DoS-based version he... well, maybe not dies, but is obviously not well. A rather grotesque situation, IMHO.

Grotesque in what sense? The ork was luckier at shooting than the assassin was at dodging.

Thats why I would be a fan of putting Per for initiative (1d10 + Per instead of 1d10 + Ag).

Would give Per some more love and Ag less.

Whether or not you perceive an attack/ambush would determine whether or not you would be able to react, but agility (to me at least) would determine how fast you react.

The bullet is away and now it comes down purely to the reflexes of its intended target - it's not like the sniper can mentally alter the bullet trajectory, after all. DoS have no business here - they were used to determine the lethality of the shot if it hits, but they rightly have no bearing on the hit chances.

That's not how Dodge works. You're not Neo, you're not dodging bullets. You are generally being Evasive and making it harder to hit you by ducking, moving, and throwing yourself behind things.

The combat rules in DH are purposefully abstract, and this is reflected in how an Attack Action models "exchanging attacks, Parries, Dodges, Feints and a number of other manoeuvres, all of which are rolled into the Standard Attack." (DH v1 p 191).

You are being way to literal in your reading of events here. And also, in the equivalent scenario where this sniper opened up with a burst attack, his DoS would indicate number of successful hits, and the defenders DoS the number of hits evaded.

If you're going to try to model detailed physics with the DH rules, you will lose your sanity!

Whether or not you perceive an attack/ambush would determine whether or not you would be able to react, but agility (to me at least) would determine how fast you react.

Reaction time depends more when you perceive it than how fast you can move in general.

Perceiving the danger 1 second before gives you more of an edge than being fast in general...

If anything it would be a combination of the two.

I can see the argument from both sides, flavour wise. But in terms of balance? Perception totally wins.

Perception does need some love ;-)

I also think so. Both of course are choices that can make sense. But regarding to balance it would be a decision for Per in my opinion.

Why don't we make a new Perception talent, called like "Perfect Blows" (crap name, I know)
Tier 2, Perception, Finesse

When you make Standard Attacks and Single Shots against an enemy, they must beat your DoS on their evade roll to succeed

Perception gets a little buff, dedicated snipers and single shot specialists get a buff, and a good rule returns.

Plus we can always use more talents. More more more.

Feat Talent bloat is not the answer.

Well opposed evade vs attack tests are only relevant on single shot weapons anyways. It already works like that on multiple attacks, and it doesn't make sense for blast or explosives or even flame in a way.

And I like talents. So there.

It also makes sense towards blasts to a certain degree.

If you react faster and into the right direction, you can evade a greandes radius more likely.

I love a non-binary dodge system. I want a non-binary dodge system. I have to add that Naviward is my GM, and makes Mook dodges of 30% around 90% of the time....he's the Sex Panther of Mook-Dodge....

Well opposed evade vs attack tests are only relevant on single shot weapons anyways. It already works like that on multiple attacks, and it doesn't make sense for blast or explosives or even flame in a way.

And I like talents. So there.

Actually, it does effect multiple attacks differently to the current system. In the current system, 1 DoS = 1 hit negated, no matter what. Subtracting your dodge DoS from the attack's DoS is different.

Say someone manages to score 6 DoS on an attack that can achieve a maximum of three hits.

Under the current system if you scored 3 DoS, nothing hits you.

On the other hand, under the old system, the firer is still left with 3 DoS after subtracting your Dodge, meaning all his shots hit home.