You all who complained about the first version of the Second Edition rules are pathetic cry babies who threw a fit when exposed to something new. By the Emperor, none of you could really be creative or smart enough to understand the flexibility the first version gave to players and GMs?

As opposed to what this is? A pathetic gamer who is crying about the changes presented now?

Cogniczar, please don't respond to this tabletop Andy Kaufman and ruin the joke for me, thank you.

It was so bad some people in my group fell asleep in combat. I had to switch over to minions, elites, and keep masters as plot devices.

This was exactly how it was intended to be run, Masters were intended as boss type encounters. I don't understand your complaint at all here. "It was so bad that I had to use the rules as intended"

I think your missing something there. What I was saying the wound system was so bad I had to remove it from the master level enemies as well. So they were basicly stat less plot devices.

The complaints that the system of the Beta are clunky, while not baseless, shouldn't lead us to conclude that we need to scrap any changes entirely. The Beta needs work, that doesn't mean that we need to go back to D&D.

You can just as easily say "The complaints that the system of DH1 are clunky, while not baseless, shouldn't lead us to conclude that we need to scrap it entirely. DH1 needs work, that doesn't mean that we need to risk another D&D4E."

You all who complained about the first version of the Second Edition rules are pathetic cry babies who threw a fit when exposed to something new. By the Emperor, none of you could really be creative or smart enough to understand the flexibility the first version gave to players and GMs?

*snip*

None of you who complained the first time could use your imagination. Dam, turn on a video game and get the hell out of role playing. You can't think, nor do I bet ANY of you are a half-way decent story tellers. So just go back to your computers games where you get the same old crap (OMG God of War 13! Grand Theft Auto Whatever: THE SAME DAME THING AGAIN! Oh, got to buy that!) You all are ruining it.

I can't help but take vague offense to this. First of all, the combat system was badly broken. Telling everyone to 'use their imagination' or 'houserule it' defeats the purpose of having a published game book to begin with. Being able to hose someone down with a heavy bolter and have them not die but then flick them with a fly swatter and have them explode like a grenade made no sense at all.

Second, I have it from a much better and far more respected source than you that I am, in fact, a good DM/GM/Storyteller. I'll gladly take his word over yours.

Third, screaming about how the people who did not like something suck makes me think that it is, in fact, you, not them, who needs to go back to video games.

I can't help but take vague offense to this. First of all, the combat system was badly broken. Telling everyone to 'use their imagination' or 'houserule it' defeats the purpose of having a published game book to begin with. Being able to hose someone down with a heavy bolter and have them not die but then flick them with a fly swatter and have them explode like a grenade made no sense at all.

Second, I have it from a much better and far more respected source than you that I am, in fact, a good DM/GM/Storyteller. I'll gladly take his word over yours.

Third, screaming about how the people who did not like something suck makes me think that it is, in fact, you, not them, who needs to go back to video games.

Thank you. No seriously that is pretty much it. If the whiny troll is going to pop up and act like a spoiled brat he needs to be called out on it. There had bee a few people that that didn't like the change, but they pretty much stayed civil about it. What is the OP's excuse? None. He has no excuse to behave the way he did which is why I made my post.

Civility?

This is no room for civility!

This...is... ONLY WAR!! (Imaging flying spit, kicking someone)

Really, the excuse is to say that you’re too lazy to do anything and need more of the same? No one stayed reasonable about the first edition; it was just a huge message board of watered-down whine feasting. You cry babies got your own narrow-scope books back, hand walking you down the way a skill needs to work, even through I doubt you will read the skill descriptor section.

And re-introducing wounds, really? When some someone is hit, something happens - IRL!. No magical "wound Emperor" comes out and says, oh, you got hit by a sword; that's -3 wounds". No, blood is on the floor. Ever hit should be a critical hit. The conversion took no effort, and all my players picked up on the 4 Action Points per rounds after two rounds of combat. This is just as bad a being "healthy" or "tough" or whatever stops a grenade? Having Wounds lacks as much reason as Toughness Bonus reducing damage...

That is, none.

But hey, got it - you love your video game elements, which is why they have to remake the same thing over, over, and over again.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest you don't have any idea what it is exactly you are complaining about Homonculus. Whether it was beta 1.0 or beta 2.0, there is no 'real-life equivalency' to damage and damage soak between the wounds system presented in either the former or later. Both have the same level of dissonance between what we expect with a 'wound' and an effect, and both systems require the suspension of belief to varying degrees with the caveat that comes with any role-playing game.

I'm going to quite politely request that you refrain from any further emotional outbursts. You are neither making any valid points, nor is this thread at all helpful towards the development of the Beta or the discussions of the pros and cons of the current paradigm shift. If you wish to join the conversations about the Beta, I'd lastly recommend you to stop making broad generalizations based on your (apparently) narrow point of view.

-Messiahcide

Civility?

This is no room for civility!

This...is... ONLY WAR!! (Imaging flying spit, kicking someone)

I have to admit, that made me laugh.

Anyway, at the end of the day there were always going to be two camps:

1. Those who wanted a game compatible with the other RPG's.

2. Those who wanted the game to keep going in the direction of the original beta.

This hasn't changed. These two groups still exist. However, somewhere during this process, the powers that be decided to go with one over the other due to the response to the beta, again bringing us back to the whole point of the beta. I can't imagine any company doing such a big course change lightly, or due to a vocal minority (or to people simply "whining").

I'm sad to see some things go, and I'm very happy to see the back of other things. As someone who's spent hours running combat encounters in DH2.0 - hours - and watching people set on fire gradually reach the point where they explode (!) I can tell you that I am happy to see the return of the other-RPG-compatible combat system. I wish we didn't have to lose talent trees though, but things like this are a compromise. You can never get everything you want all the time. Yelling at other people in the Internet isn't going to change that.

BYE

As someone who's spent hours running combat encounters in DH2.0 - hours - and watching people set on fire gradually reach the point where they explode (!)

Are you implying this DIDN'T happen under the older critical damage system we've had since DH1e? Because that's, uh, a bit of a questionable claim. I've definitely seen it happen before.

Really, the excuse is to say that you’re too lazy to do anything and need more of the same? No one stayed reasonable about the first edition; it was just a huge message board of watered-down whine feasting...

...

But hey, got it - you love your video game elements...

Whining about how everyone else is supposedly a whiner just keeps getting funnier.

-And complaining about 'video game elements' from someone in favor of Beta1's 'two hits and they pop' Minions (nakedly patterned after 8-bit video games) is priceless...

I did not like some aspects of original beta because of their videogame-ness. Such as combat. I did not like some aspects which seemed like copy-paste from different system (namely Edge of the Empire), Such as talent trees. And as I lost interest in discussing the product I was seriously torn about without being constantly reminded that I am not forced to continue if I do not like the changes in original beta differing from previous 40kRPGs I left. With occasional popping in to lurk and not to be bitchy.

Now imagine my surprise, when after checking the new version of beta which I like, I came back. Second thread I open and there is, excuse me, literally hysterical attack on crybabies who forced the change and how they destroyed everything. Holy Geriatric on Golden Throne, am I only one who sees hypocrisy and cosmic irony here *shakes head*

Why cant 40kRPG fandm get along and argue about idiocy of Games Workshop or about Female Space Marines.

You all who complained about the first version of the Second Edition rules are pathetic cry babies who threw a fit when exposed to something new. By the Emperor, none of you could really be creative or smart enough to understand the flexibility the first version gave to players and GMs?

You all needed a reprint of Only War rather then a setting that allowed GMs and players to uses skills as the situation fit (changing characteristics and the ability to rely on broader situation) and instead need to be hand-held into the narrow type of skills? This new version is worse then the old one, but hey, you all bitched for it and the real role players in this world have to see your sad little crap reprinted cause you all have to ***** and whine, "OH... we need Only War...wan...wan"

Gods, I would hate to play with any of you. You're all the same players who properly think the Dark Eldars make great characters cause they're Dark Eldar and you're all awful power gamers. Never does it cross your small minds that they create awful group dynamics, but hey, if you all thought you wouldn't have forced FFG to give you the same crap back.

When I though a game was going to be open-ended setting within the Imperium of Mankind, the community (you all) came along a ruined it.

FFG had to do this. Give the same old thing to you all, hand-hold and walk you all into the way you have to play. They have to make sales, and shut you all the hell up. So you all would throw money at the same old crap without thinking on your own.

None of you who complained the first time could use your imagination. Dam, turn on a video game and get the hell out of role playing. You can't think, nor do I bet ANY of you are a half-way decent story tellers. So just go back to your computers games where you get the same old crap (OMG God of War 13! Grand Theft Auto Whatever: THE SAME DAME THING AGAIN! Oh, got to buy that!) You all are ruining it.

Vitriolic but not altogether untrue. If FFG go with the latest version of the Beta then all the 40K RPG's can look forward to is nothing more than stagnation. The first Beta was nowhere near perfect, it needed a lot of tweeking. What it didn't need was wholescale reversion to Only War, Personally our group got the hang of the AP and ROF system in one two hour session. What the original Beta needed was a carefully programed system looking at the problems and solving them without throwing the baby out with the bath water. However now the baby has been thrown in the incinerator, perhaps the parents should follow it. This Beta should be consigned to the dustbin and FFG should go back to being innovative or they might as well hand the license back to GW.

I feel that we should better use our time to perfect the current iteration of the game system rather than argue over which system is better.

Vitriolic but not altogether untrue. If FFG go with the latest version of the Beta then all the 40K RPG's can look forward to is nothing more than stagnation. The first Beta was nowhere near perfect, it needed a lot of tweeking. What it didn't need was wholescale reversion to Only War, Personally our group got the hang of the AP and ROF system in one two hour session. What the original Beta needed was a carefully programed system looking at the problems and solving them without throwing the baby out with the bath water. However now the baby has been thrown in the incinerator, perhaps the parents should follow it. This Beta should be consigned to the dustbin and FFG should go back to being innovative or they might as well hand the license back to GW.

The fact you are supporting this guy while there are other people who deserve better for being rational adults is sad. Seriously no praise to SublimeShadow, but your backing up this troll. You might as well just leave along with the troll. Your not helping people who want a better Beta 1.0 and your wasting the time of people who want to have a discussion about Beta 2.0.

Now normally I would not waste my time, but this guy that your agreeing with is a obvious man child troll who is a hypocrite. His posts does nothing to help you. In fact quite the opposite as he is making you look bad. If your going to back some one up it should be SublimeShadow who had shown to be the far better man in this thread.

I think ragnar is merely pointing out that while Homonculus clearly did not make their points well in their rant, there were some good points there that could be addressed in a more reasonable fashion.

I am also saying that Ragnar could be commenting on SublimeShadow's comments he is trying to help out where Homonculus is spitting out venom. GauntZero is another guy trying to help out as well despite how much he loved the old beta system. We should be high lighting better people instead of some ranting troll.

True but those people are not the original poster.

That doesn't matter. The OP was acting immature and he deserves nothing other than to be called out on it. From there we should be focusing on the people that are being mature, thoughtful, and actually helping the game.

You've all ruined this great thread. Let's just let it die now, okay?

His words are chosen by sadness, grief and anger.

But the message is right.

Progression was stopped because of some grognards. And I also dislike that very much.

His words are chosen by sadness, grief and anger.

But the message is right.

Progression was stopped because of some grognards. And I also dislike that very much.

Again, change != progress, and the previous beta managed to port over problems back from WFRP 2e as well as introducing a ton of new ones.

As someone nicely put it on 4chan, we didn't hate it because it was new. We hated it because it was crap.

Unfortunately what we have now isn't really change or progress, just stagnation.

Not that I think the first beta was particularly robust. It's a great document to pull houserule ideas from, though.

Unfortunately what we have now isn't really change or progress, just stagnation.

Not that I think the first beta was particularly robust. It's a great document to pull houserule ideas from, though.

Unfortunately, that's true. While stagnation is generally preferable to bad change, it'd be nice to re-examine the specific subsystems of the previous beta calmly and see if the better ones can be ported over to the old basic rules. I've already started a discussion to such an end about the psychic rules, as you're aware of.

Of course, it'd require people to drop the "edition wars" mentality.

After evaluating recent FFG releases (in the 40k line, at least. Edge of the Empire is pretty solid), I'm more than confident they couldn't have got the first beta to a quality state. At least this beta might approach something that isn't totally broken.

Personally I'm just frankensteining together the bits I like from the various 40kRPG books we've got over the years to create a ruleset that works for me, because I'm not sure FFG are up to the task of making the game I want to play.

I'm out of the edition wars mindset and into the utterly apathetic one.