Maybe my players are just incredibly intelligent, but they picked up on the AP system and RoF pretty much immediately.

I'm terribly sorry to say it, but your argument in invalid.

your players can't be incredibly intelligent, as that would unavoidably turn them into GMs.

Pft, the nerve of some people...

Give them time, this is only their first TTRPG

I think the only major problem with RoF was the numbers, some weapons were way too slow to be worth using, but all it takes is a few house-ruled RoF increases and you've got a good system that's much more interesting and tactical than half/full/reaction.

I thought it was a pretty good idea, honestly. Just some bad numbers.

The fractions were the obvious offender - those should all have been RoF 1 with a Single Shot quality.

The other big problem was when they introduced scaling with Agility which could lead to insanely high numbers. Either drop the scaling or set a cap (though the built-in WS cap did help with this - it might actually not have been that bad in practice).

I don't think there was a real problem with the high-RoF ranged weapons. They were all scaled fairly well to either be a few almost-safe hits, or a bunch of doubtful ones. Risk vs. reward.

Also, it was a hell of a lot cleaner than Semi-/Full-Auto. The system was intuitive in that you could explain the basic rules to someone and they could extrapolate from there. It was self-contained.

The return to half/full actions will probably mean that I won't be playing 40k RPGs in the future (yeah, yeah, door hitting me on the way out, etc.).

Seriously the only bad thing about action points where in fact the horrible rate of fire rules that came with it. Now they fix rate of fire they should just bring action points back.

Yup, I agree. The current system already uses the equivalent of 3 AP (two Half Action and one Reaction, modifiable by certain Talents)- I see no reason not to shift fully to APs, now that Beta1 's horrible RoF rules have gone the way of the dodo...

What do you mean cleaner? What is so hard to understand that one shot is +10, semi is 0, and auto is -10? With the amount of ammo consumed as this s/4/8 which means s = single shot thus one ammo, semi fire takes up four ammo, and auto takes up eight ammo.

MagnusPhil: Or you could stick with the Dark Heresy beta pre-Only Warification, I'll be talking it over with my players next session and we'll most likely be doing that.

Early Christmas for me, I especially like the return of aptitudes and classic combat. From the fast skim I am a bit disappointed about the backward change of evasion/dodge/parry (the original beta version as opposed test was brilliant) and there is some roughness in character creation still, but that can be fixed.

Just one question, how the hell should we call it? DH 2.0 Beta 2.0 is a bit clunky.

Just one question, how the hell should we call it? DH 2.0 Beta 2.0 is a bit clunky.

I would suggest "Lost Opportunity"

The opportunity cannot be lost yet considering that the system is still in Beta Phase.

Just one question, how the hell should we call it? DH 2.0 Beta 2.0 is a bit clunky.

I would suggest "Lost Opportunity"

Although poetic, far too conflicting

Oh please...

I would suggest "Lost Opportunity"

By that type of silliness I would call it "Savior of profits lost"!

Enough already! Even though I didn't care for the old beta I tried it and made suggestions I thought would make it better! Get over yourselves!

Let's move on to working with what we've got.

It seems like FFG is calling this version DH Beta 2.0 and the older version DH 2nd edition Beta.

We could call it the Only Heresy beta.

We could call it the Only Heresy beta.

I started running a game of OW all the way back in February in which the party works for Ordo Hereticus and does a mashup of OW and DH stuff. Only Heresy is the title.

We always refer to any campaign I'm running as Top Heresy or Top Quest. Most intro's are usually done with the Top Gear intro song and a monologue about "Tonight, Player 1 looks at a website, Player 2 shoots his own foot, and Player 3 rolls a die."

A few comments on some of the things people have said. With yes/no dodging, especially at higher level where bonuses can get ridiculous, an easy fix to that is to see how many raises the person got on their dodge test verse how many raises the shooter got on his, with an 01 dodge always succeeding. It makes an expert marksman be able to easily hit most people outside of those who are skilled at avoiding such blows.

Skill levels just give a bonus % to the linked attribute. It's not hard to change what attribute you are rolling from if the GM decides the situation calls for it. My own group has been doing this since Black Industries was the producer of Dark Heresy (using intelligence as a base for concealment to find the best ambush spot is a favorite of mine).

Also, if you don't like the 'any more then one means good to go!' style of wounds, ROLE PLAY IT!!!!! It's a role playing game so why not? Wounds, HP, and their like has always been an arbitrary way to measure damage, leaving it up to the players and the GM to decide the details of wounds that the players suffer from. That way those of us who like to play the 'I can take it" tough guys who force through the pain can do so with no penalty.

The guns. I'm not sure whether they implemented range mods back in (I'm sure they did since this is essentially a carbon copy of Only War). If they did, the gun ranges are close to being acceptable. If they didn't, its absurd. In the grim darkness of the far future their assault rifles shoot ~1/8 as far as ours. I understand that some GM's have trouble designing encounters at ranges outside 100 m but that shouldn't limit the rules themselves.

I have to comment on this. You do remember that this is 40k. Your average las gun is probably a hundred or more years old, most battle tanks are thousands of years old. Maintenance is so highly ritualized and not understood that it's arguable if they have any true effect other then to keep things from falling apart at the seems. Weapons technology has not only stagnated, but it has regressed over the last 10k years to be on a worse level of understanding then what we have nowadays. Outside of the stuff like meltaguns, plasma tech, and the space based stuff, the average military tech of today is probably just as, if not more, advanced then what you'll probably see in the guards armory.

Weapons technology has not only stagnated, but it has regressed over the last 10k years to be on a worse level of understanding then what we have nowadays.

Wrong. The petty 40k Autogun would be Star Wars tech for us. It fires caseless rounds of the 10mm rifle caliber that somehow does the exact same damage as our 12.5mm HMG rounds...

Don't apply real world physics and weapon knowledge to 40k. It's a dangerous path to go down considering the writers just asspull random figures.

A Land Raider is significantly less well armoured than a modern battle tank according to 40k science.

Don't apply real world physics and weapon knowledge to 40k. It's a dangerous path to go down considering the writers just asspull random figures.

It is from official GW sources. They said that the lasgun has the hitting power of a 12.5mm HMG and since autoguns are roughly equal to lasguns in this manner... .

Official GW sources are inconsistent as all hell. They don't follow any sort of science, they follow 'this probably makes sense I guess, better not check!'

Official GW sources are inconsistent as all hell. They don't follow any sort of science, they follow 'this probably makes sense I guess, better not check!'

Then how else could we tell it for sure ? At this rate, we could say that the 40k weapons are thousand times better than IRL ones and who would prove it otherwise?

It would be just easier to fix the weapon stats. For example, get rid of long/extreme range as they are now and simply say that for every range band, you suffer a -10 to the BS test to a maximum of -50 (for example, a weapon with a range of 100m can fire at 100m with +0, at 200m with -10, at 300m with -20 and so on until 500m/-50). With the Marksman Talent you can fire at six times range for -60 too. Long range is simply the x2 and x3 range, while Extreme range is the x4 and x5 (and x6) range. Yay, problem solved, everyone is happy.

I'm just saying 40k stats and figures are really off. Like, the Land Raider has 365mm thick armour that's roughly equivalent to modern day steel, according to Imperial Armour. Meanwhile an M1A2 Abrams has roughly 900. Doesn't sound like AV14 to me.

I'm just saying 40k stats and figures are really off. Like, the Land Raider has 365mm thick armour that's roughly equivalent to modern day steel, according to Imperial Armour. Meanwhile an M1A2 Abrams has roughly 900. Doesn't sound like AV14 to me.

Oh man, those Forge World tank stats... With the Land Raider weighing 72 tonns (this isn't much more than the Abram's 65 tonns, though the LR is nearly twice as big)...

I'm just saying 40k stats and figures are really off. Like, the Land Raider has 365mm thick armour that's roughly equivalent to modern day steel, according to Imperial Armour. Meanwhile an M1A2 Abrams has roughly 900. Doesn't sound like AV14 to me.

Oh man, those Forge World tank stats... With the Land Raider weighing 72 tonns (this isn't much more than the Abram's 65 tonns, though the LR is nearly twice as big)...

Probably has to do with hom much less armour it has?