Post-Imperium Galaxy

By Milova, in Dark Heresy

Due to problems with the quote function (*shakes fist in anger*) I'll be using Italics to indicate the statements I'm responding to and regular type for my own work.

The Tau don't have the numbers... yet.

Best case scenario is that they won't have anything like the numbers for a long, long time. They have a couple dozen planets with a total population less than that of Necromundia. The Imperium has more than 30,000 hive worlds.

And they aren't going to grow fast. They're under threat and attack by Orks and Tyranids and that's without even bringing humans into the issue.

Their technology is constantly leaping forward, in a millenium they will probably equal, if not surpass, that of the Dark Age of Technology .

That's an optimistic interpretation. Here's another one. Their technological progression plateaus and stagnates. That's optimistic, because it assumes they don't get eaten by Tyranids.

Their empire expands rapidly, at the moment the only thing really stopping it is the Imperium. Once the Imperium shatters, the Tau will be able to absorb human worlds with ease. Again, their culture was designed with this in mind - their willingness to accept non-Tau into their empire allows them to expand quickly, especially with the amount of human worlds out there that will be just waiting to be gobbled up.

No, it won't. They local humans will still be there and a few densely populated planets have more industrial might than the entire Tau Empire. The Tau don't have the population of a single subsector and given the feudal nature of the Imperium, organization will survive on those low levels on many areas. Given the Tau's crummy FTL and lack of astropaths, their empire will have far greater difficulty with large scale organization than Imperial remenants.

And that's ignoring the Orks and the Tyranids and the Necrons and everyone else. Or Ultramar deciding "these guys need to die."

This will, as I said before, take a long time. And it's true that another force could wipe them out before they succeed. But it is quite definately a possibility. That is the horror of the Tau - they are the successor race for humanity. They have been designed with the fall of the human race in mind. Someone out there (the Eldar) have forseen the end of the Imperium and coldly decided that they needed an alternative race to impose order on the galaxy.

Basically, the Tau plot is clearly taken from Asimov's Foundation series, which is pretty much exactly the same accept all the factions are human.

40K steals from everywhere. And 40K's plot owes a lot more to Dune than Foundation.

The Tau were intended for something alright. Whether or not that will come to pass is another thing. Their numbers and position (right by Ultramar of all the places in the galaxy) make it unlikely that whatever Eldar faction created them means to use them to "take control of the galaxy", something the Eldar view as their rightful spot anyway. Anti-chaos, anti-human cannon fodder armies to bolster the Eldar's own lack of numbers makes much more sense. It'll bolster the eldar numbers, being a blunt race their resistant to possession, they are conveniently controllable through the ethereals, and could be a potent force when directed to fight and die at the right spot by farseers.

As for Tyranids and Necrons, it'll be the Necrons. The 'Nids aren't interested in unliving matter and much of their biotech and control mechanisms is based on warp power. Once the Necrons complete the Great Ward and seal the galaxy off from the Warp, the Tyranids are toast.

However, there's hints that the Tyranids are just servants of a greater and more terrible master.

If you have a look in the latest ork codex you'll find that the tau are being stalled by a lot more than just the Imperium. There are ork Waaaghs! that have completely halted the 3rd sphere expansion.

Hellebore

Been hearing that wacky things going on with the quote function, so if this quote doesn't go through I am responding to "If the Emperor became a Chaos God, what would he embody?".

I'd say that the Emperor would embody control. Every creature wants some form of control over their envirnment. From basic things like making sure their envirnment has ample food and water and prospective mates to more complicated things like wanting a higher place in a social hierarchy. The Emperor as Chaos God would embody the urge to dominate what is around them. Control is often concieved as a ood thing though. Control is what makes society work. Control is what makes a formal system of Law and Order work. Just as Tzeentch can be concieved as the God of hope as well as pointless change, the Emperor as Chaos God would be the God of civilization as well as soul crushing dominance. A 'good' worshiper of Khorne would be an honorable warrior and the 'bad' would be a bloodthirsty barbarian warlord. A 'good worshiper of the Emperor would be an honest judge making sure the innocent are safe and the guilty are punished while a 'bad' worshiper of the Emperor would be a tyanical dictator who seeks to control every action and the very will of the people he rules. As a side effect, the urge to control is one of the reasons behind technology and order is what makes them work in the first place. Thus worshipers of the Emperor as Chaos God may be the most technologically minded of the worshipers of the Gods.

Also, we need to come up with a name for this Emperor as Chaos God. The other Gods have names as well as titles. Nurgle can be known as Nurgle, Lord of Flies. We need a ____, the Emperor. I nominate Aquilla. So it would be Khorne, Nurgle, Slannesh and Aquilla.

Aquilla, Lord of Business Tax, Master of the holy order of the IRS. What better way to control people? gran_risa.gif

Hellebore

I have a question though with all this glorius talk of the Emperor being resurrected and becoming a god. What happens if it doesn't happen and when he dies there is nothing left. Now I know this may be very unlikely due to the real financial aspects of destroying the main faction in 40k, but would humanity really be screwed? Could they survive even create a new god?

After that earlier question another conundrum has crossed my mind. If the Tau dominate humanity and many other easliy corrupted races, will they resort to genocide once the civies start manifesting all sorts of warp? Wouldn't it be in the interest of the Greater Good to do so?

You seem to be under the impression that Aquilla (hey I gave the Emperor as Chaos God a name and I'm sticking to it) would have any intrest in preserving the human race. The Emperor is a God now. He may go the route of Slannesh and just find us particularly tasty.

Anyway, Humanity survived and was an on and off galactic power for 30,000 years or so. I think we can survive for a time without a God Emperor.

TheSaylesMan said:

You seem to be under the impression that Aquilla (hey I gave the Emperor as Chaos God a name and I'm sticking to it) would have any intrest in preserving the human race. The Emperor is a God now. He may go the route of Slannesh and just find us particularly tasty.

Anyway, Humanity survived and was an on and off galactic power for 30,000 years or so. I think we can survive for a time without a God Emperor.

Gods aren't per se interested in their followers. That is Nurgle doesn't lose sleep about his Champion's well-being. They are interested though, in having what they embody represented in the real world. Decay, death, stagnation, etc... these are the things Nurgle cares about and those who embody these traits and make them a reality draw his attention. Same with the other Chaos Gods.

The Emperor were he to ascend would likewise look after those who embody his primary traits. It's not that he'll be caring for mankind, but rather that he'll most likely represent some human quality and thus by extension protect humanity. I suppose, if he were to ascend he'd probably embody something like hope, sacrifice, faith or obedience, as that's what in my opinion the IoM is founded on despite all the Grim Darkness.

Men's plight is based on the hope that the Emperor's plan can continue. The Emperor guides (literally and metaphorically) the IoM. It's his crusade and mandate that birthed the Space Marines, and that belief (some might even call it faith in him) still guides them (even if they don't worship him). And it's hope in the Emperor that has led to the many manifestations of Living Saints and Martyrs.

TheSaylesMan said:

Also, we need to come up with a name for this Emperor as Chaos God. The other Gods have names as well as titles. Nurgle can be known as Nurgle, Lord of Flies. We need a ____, the Emperor. I nominate Aquilla. So it would be Khorne, Nurgle, Slannesh and Aquilla.

How about the name Malal?

Graver said:

How about the name Malal?

Ah yes, Malal. God of non-canon. lengua.gif

Actually, I really like Malal. The Choas God of hating Chaos being non-canon only improves his thing I think. Really wish he'd come back into the universe legitimately but I doubt that GW will ever want to go through all the malarky that would require.

Graver said:

TheSaylesMan said:

Also, we need to come up with a name for this Emperor as Chaos God. The other Gods have names as well as titles. Nurgle can be known as Nurgle, Lord of Flies. We need a ____, the Emperor. I nominate Aquilla. So it would be Khorne, Nurgle, Slannesh and Aquilla.

How about the name Malal?

Heresy!

How about Zuvassin and Necoho? Those two chaos gods are more chaos than the rest. gui%C3%B1o.gif

I honestly doubt the emporer would become chaos god of control.

control is what the imperium wants, not the emporer.
ironically the emporer opposed religion because it make the people less free, but the priesthood possible shushed it so that they could have control.

The emporers ultimate goal is to help mankind and insure its survival, but that was when he was walking and he cant have been corrupted meanwhile by sitting on a demon gate for 10000 years.

Sarius said:

I honestly doubt the emporer would become chaos god of control.

control is what the imperium wants, not the emporer.
ironically the emporer opposed religion because it make the people less free, but the priesthood possible shushed it so that they could have control.

The emporers ultimate goal is to help mankind and insure its survival, but that was when he was walking and he cant have been corrupted meanwhile by sitting on a demon gate for 10000 years.

What if the Emperor is really bitter when he is reincarnated. I could imagine him saying how disappointed he is and how the Imperium's leaders have lead his people astray. Maybe that's why some are trying to stop him from being reborn. To keep the status quo.

Oh yeah, that's what they tell you in the Horus Heresy books but I don't buy it. The Emperor was far-sighted enough to use the Dragon to ensure a machine cult on Mars for his war thousands of years later and yet not far-sighted enough to predict the Heresy? No. I think he planned it all so that he could eventually become a God. The Imperial Truth was nothing more than a means of clearing the field so that no other religions opposed his. And he let the Heresy happen because it would give rise to the perfect conditions to let him become a God.

And as for what his domains of power would be, even if he did not plan the wole thing (which I admit to being unlikely) it is the perception of his worshipers that would determine his domains. On most worlds it seems that the Emperor means the Law. On far-flung worlds the priests and adepts only come to ensure that taxes and the correct hhomage are paid. Hell, on more civilized worlds the agents of the Emperor seem much more concerned with the people being orderly and obeying the law than nessesarily being hapy or hopeful. The servants of the Emperor seem to be much more affiiated with rules and regulations than anything else. And the people are definately going to associate what the servants of the Emperor are about with what the Emperor is about. Hell, even during the Great Crusade, what did the Emperor do? He led large armies and crushed other worlds and obliterated their cultures. Sure it was for the 'best' but that doesn't mean that making their faith illegal and their local government moot was a good thing. The Emperor was nothing more than another warlord in my eyes. An immortal, very powerful warlord, but still just as selfish as any other human.

TheSaylesMan said:

Oh yeah, that's what they tell you in the Horus Heresy books but I don't buy it. The Emperor was far-sighted enough to use the Dragon to ensure a machine cult on Mars for his war thousands of years later and yet not far-sighted enough to predict the Heresy? No. I think he planned it all so that he could eventually become a God. The Imperial Truth was nothing more than a means of clearing the field so that no other religions opposed his. And he let the Heresy happen because it would give rise to the perfect conditions to let him become a God.

And as for what his domains of power would be, even if he did not plan the wole thing (which I admit to being unlikely) it is the perception of his worshipers that would determine his domains. On most worlds it seems that the Emperor means the Law. On far-flung worlds the priests and adepts only come to ensure that taxes and the correct hhomage are paid. Hell, on more civilized worlds the agents of the Emperor seem much more concerned with the people being orderly and obeying the law than nessesarily being hapy or hopeful. The servants of the Emperor seem to be much more affiiated with rules and regulations than anything else. And the people are definately going to associate what the servants of the Emperor are about with what the Emperor is about. Hell, even during the Great Crusade, what did the Emperor do? He led large armies and crushed other worlds and obliterated their cultures. Sure it was for the 'best' but that doesn't mean that making their faith illegal and their local government moot was a good thing. The Emperor was nothing more than another warlord in my eyes. An immortal, very powerful warlord, but still just as selfish as any other human.

I see him more as a crusader with a case of "the ends justify the means". Most of his actions point to him not wanting needless human suffering but his will is firm.

A more interesting idea on what type of god he might become is one of regret. For an immortal being he's sure made alot of mistakes, especially involving his highest servants the Primarchs. For example when he singled out Horus as his favorite, he was only asking to nuture a dark form of pride within his most favored son. It blinded him so that he was confined to the Golden Throne for failing to strike down Horus when he had the chance. This disbelief also lead to him accusing one of his most loyal sons, Prospero even after he tried to warn him of Horus's treachery. Another mistake was his whole handling of the Primarch in his meeting them. Nearly every traitor Primarch was slighted by the Emperor in his arrogance, however well meant.

Planting the Dragon on Mars isn't proof of farseeing abilities, it's proof of being able to do long term planning. Humans are poor diviners. The Emperor has repeated demonstrated the ability to plan for the future, but as for farseeing, not so much. The Eldar, the best farseers, see multiple futures and then try to shape events so that they're prefered one takes place. They don't always pick right. The same surely re applies to the Emperor, who was distracted by trying the hijack the Webway and thus provide safe FTL travel for humanity during the early stages of the Heresy.

That's also a compelling reason for the "farseeing device" in Legion being bogus. It shows two futures, instead of many. It shows the futures that the human hating xenos want. It is able to convince the alien killing Alpha Legion to trust these atiens they loath and mistrust just by watching it and cause them to instantly betray all they hold dear. The only Eldar involved is not a farseer. In fact, a farseer warns the Emperor of the Heresy and Eldar fight against Horus during the Heresy. They aren't doing that because they love humans.

I can remember beading a very good piece of fan fiction once, where the Emperor died, the throne failed and the master of the Adeptus Custodes was named as the new Emperor, sanctioned by the 12 lords of Terra, the Grand master of the Grey Knights and by Marneus Calgar, chapter master of the Ultramarines. The whole feel of it was very somber and dark. I read it years ago and it still sticks in my mind.

Cynical Cat said:

The Eldar, the best farseers, see multiple futures and then try to shape events so that they're prefered one takes place. They don't always pick right.

They can't always pick right. A Farseer might see a hundred or a thousand potential futures... but that isn't all of them. And then, with all that, he can only pick the most favourable one to pursue (imagine the Fall of Iyanden in this light - that millions of Eldar must die to halt a Hive Fleet that would otherwise do far greater damage is perhaps the best of a theoretically dire collection of possible futures).

Another aspect that appears now and again is that there are certain events that even the most gifted of seers, diviners, prophets and fate-architects cannot see clearly - referred to in one novel as "Shadowpoints". The Heresy is extremely likely to be such an event - so much riding on it, so many different ways it could have played out, so many variables and uncertain factors and interested parties that to obtain a clear vision of how it could end or should end is virtually impossible, before you even consider the turbulence in the Warp that formed as the Heresy began.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Cynical Cat said:

The Eldar, the best farseers, see multiple futures and then try to shape events so that they're prefered one takes place. They don't always pick right.

They can't always pick right. A Farseer might see a hundred or a thousand potential futures... but that isn't all of them. And then, with all that, he can only pick the most favourable one to pursue (imagine the Fall of Iyanden in this light - that millions of Eldar must die to halt a Hive Fleet that would otherwise do far greater damage is perhaps the best of a theoretically dire collection of possible futures).

Another aspect that appears now and again is that there are certain events that even the most gifted of seers, diviners, prophets and fate-architects cannot see clearly - referred to in one novel as "Shadowpoints". The Heresy is extremely likely to be such an event - so much riding on it, so many different ways it could have played out, so many variables and uncertain factors and interested parties that to obtain a clear vision of how it could end or should end is virtually impossible, before you even consider the turbulence in the Warp that formed as the Heresy began.

An excellent elaboration on my point.

The Imperium would collapse. I think humanity would survive, though. The Demons would not just come rushing in. They still require a tear from warp space to our space. They will incite their agents to attack. So you would get uprising and battles on many worlds. With the death of the Emperor, his beacon would be gone...or would it? Could smaller beacons be created? Could the Mech's build something smaller like a light house system? The Imperium is already collecting millions of psychers with their black ships. Maybe it can fall on them to light the way? I mean they are already doing it now for interstellar communication, why couldn't navigation be added to it?

As for the Webway behind the throne, perhaps both the Eldar and the Emperor had a plan for when it happened? Maybe the Eldar will arrive to help to perserve the Emperor legacy? Even the Eldar realize that Humanity has a place to keep back the darkness. Anyway, just random thoughts.

Normal Astropaths can create a 10 LY Beacon for use in loclised Navagasion, there are repotadaly Greater Astropaths with the ability to transmit up to a few hundred LY, but their as rare as hens teath with the Inqusision keeping them for their own use.

Drop Bear said:

Normal Astropaths can create a 10 LY Beacon for use in loclised Navagasion, there are repotadaly Greater Astropaths with the ability to transmit up to a few hundred LY, but their as rare as hens teath with the Inqusision keeping them for their own use.

There's also boosters that make the Astronomicon visible around Ultramar. Navigators can still use their talents without the Astronomicon, but they'll be constrained to much short and less accurate jumps without it around as a reference point. In other words, it's still better than what other races use to travel the warp and can sustain a larger civilization, but not a galaxy spanning one.

Cynical Cat said:

In other words, it's still better than what other races use to travel the warp and can sustain a larger civilization, but not a galaxy spanning one.

[coughs]Webway[/coughs]

Hey, look, a method of interstellar travel that can be done by individuals on foot, isn't reliant on bulky in-ship hardware, and which allowed a civilisation to maintain a galaxy spanning empire for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Cynical Cat said:

In other words, it's still better than what other races use to travel the warp and can sustain a larger civilization, but not a galaxy spanning one.

[coughs]Webway[/coughs]

Hey, look, a method of interstellar travel that can be done by individuals on foot, isn't reliant on bulky in-ship hardware, and which allowed a civilisation to maintain a galaxy spanning empire for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years...

Great idea! I'm sure some Eldar would be more than happy to hand over their secrets of making the webway a viable system of transportation.

Didn't the Emperor once try to make a webway gate behind the Golden Throne that failed miserably and became a huge rift in the warp? Isn't that the basis behind the idea that if the Emperor would die, demons would devour Terra almost instantly?

Note that the web way is not all the same size. Parts of it allow the passage of eldar space ships.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway