I'm gonna run some sessions with 6-7 PCs. I'm already sensing that some weird stuff is going to happen. Like:
Does anyone have a clean solution to this so I as a GM can take my mind off making all kinds of macro decisions that will slow down the game?
We stick promptly to one guarded position active at a time (per engagement), assisting is limited to one per action in story mode and encounter mode both. And we play with just four players. It doesn't damage the system in any way that we've been able to spot and you avoid all of the stuff you mention.
I am actually in favor of rulings instead of rules. So you decide that only 1 person can assist in translating a letter but maybe 3 can assist in climbing a wall. Static rules feel often forced because they do not fit the situation.
Story-Mode Assist is definitely an issue with a group that size. I'm not thrilled with the idea of limiting them to 1 assisting PC per roll, though, that seems unnecessarily restricted to me. 1 or 2 white dice is just a tiny drop in the bucket. We regularly end up with 4 or 5 dice of story-mode assists at my table, and they still manage to fail on critical efforts often enough to keep things interesting. 10 or 12 white dice, on the other hand, would definitely start to break things. I'd suggest: for most tasks allow a maximum of 3 people to assist.
Assists during combat shouldn't really be a problem. The need to pay fatigue for manoeuvres mean that in general each PC won't assist more than 1 person per turn. Often less than that, if the terrain is unfavorable or the NPCs have a fatigue-inducing action the PCs have to be wary of. Sure, if they're all in a single engagement, and really good at coordinating their teamwork, you may end up with 1 ridiculously inflated attack per turn... but it will usually be overkill and wasted effort. I'm frequently seeing overkill like 19 damage to an ungor with a whopping total of 5 soak and 8 health. I find that the three heavy-hitters in my party can pretty reliably one-hit kill one bad guy each per turn. I'd say on average they kill 2.7 baddies per turn as a group. Having 6 extra white on one of those rolls wouldn't change that at all, because they wouldn't know for certain which one attack was going to need the big bonus.
I wouldn't be very worried about huge multilayered guarded position situations. For starters, guarded position isn't very exciting, so some percentage of the players just won't do it because they'd rather be attacking or casting a spell. The number of NPCs it will take to survive a round with 7 PCs going offensive is pretty large. Which means that if the PCs do insist on turtling up behind the guarded position instead, you'll have the sheer numbers to squeak something past a defense from time to time. There's also plenty of other ways around guarded position: Fear Checks, spells, attacks that aren't vs Target Defense, terrain cards that limit how many characters can be in an engagement, etc. Remember that henchman groups can be up to 7 monsters per token with that many players, so they'll attack at +6 white dice themselves which should make a dent on the guarded position. Combined white and black dice do not effectively cancel out, they increase the variance of the rolls.
Your biggest problem is actually likely to be the slow pace of combat with that many players. Assembling and resolving a dice pool can take a lot of time. There's going to be a lot of downtime between turns during bigger fights. It's not going to be easy to keep the players attentive and focused while you count up the dice for the 10th roll since their own last action.
You'll also want to decide up front if you're going to let players double-up on actions / talents / careers /etc. There are a few talents and actions that work just fine with 1 or 2 people at the table using them which could cause trouble if 5 to 7 PCs had them. For Example, the Tactic talent Flanking Manoeuvre is harmless as a singleton, but stacks ridiculously if a bunch of PCs all have it.
Important question: do you have a big enough table for 7 players? With all the cards and doodads, PCs easily take up double the table real estate here that they do in other games.
Thank you r_b_bergstrom for the verbose answer!
I think I will set a soft limit of 3 effective Assists and Guarded Positions with some modifications in odd cases. Thou, not an odd case, I feel that ranged attacks could not benifit so much from Assists... maybe only one.
We don't use assists for ranged combat, but archers can aim as a manoeuvre - which enables them to gain a white die to an attack. (kind of like them assisting themselves)
I would argue that one could assist a ranged attack by any of the following:
Given the abstract nature of the movement and manoeuvre system, it's not hard to flavorfully justify that you're doing *something* that helps. +1 white die is not a particularly large bonus, and the 1 fatigue is a hefty enough cost to keep it from getting out of hand. YMMV.
Edited by r_b_bergstromI would argue that one could assist a ranged attack by any of the following:
- gauging the wind or distance to the target,
- providing advice on proper archery form,
- helping brace their aim,
- being "Johnny on the spot" with the ammo,
- watching their back so they can concentrate on their aim,
- distracting or baiting the target,
- or even just stepping aside so you're not in the way of the shot.
Given the abstract nature of the movement and manoeuvre system, it's not hard to flavorfully justify that you're doing *something* that helps. +1 white die is not a particularly large bonus, and the 1 fatigue is a hefty enough cost to keep it from getting out of hand. YMMV.
Good examples but sometimes a task (or shot) might require great concentration. Assistance might instead become a nuisance. Judging that the one making the shot need great concentration I guess about half of your bullets in your list still apply.
I need to ask about the Fatigue cost. Characters have one free manouvre. They can use that for Assist and do not need to take the Fatigue penalty right?
Edited by HashKey64Yes that is right, likewise if they are an archer they can use their free manoeuvre to Aim.
Maybe I'm a bit stingy, but I wouldn't allow really any of those bonuses maybe beyond one white..or perhaps there aren't enough opponents to keep you all busy
For a 6-7 group, especially a combat-heavy group, below are some typical encounters I would put in my games. I would remove one group of monsters for each non-combat-heavy PC. Not all would necessarily appear at once.
2 groups of ungor henchmen
2 gor
1 mutants
1 wargor or minotaur
1 chaos hound
===
1 group of snotling henchmen
2 groups of goblin henchmen
2 orcs
1 squig
1 black orc
===
3 groups of skeletons
2 zombies
1 crypt ghoul
1 necromancer or vampire
===
5 wolves
1 wolf with Hero's call "Hero" template
1 terrain hazard (ice, underbrush, "stumbling" terrain
===
2 groups chaos cultist henchmen
2 mutants
1 cult leader
1 chaos maurauder
1 chaos warrior (variable strength)
Who has time to bother with assists?
Edited by EmirikolI need to ask about the Fatigue cost. Characters have one free manouvre. They can use that for Assist and do not need to take the Fatigue penalty right?
Yes, PCs can spend their 1 free manuever to assist. In my experience, though, most turns PCs have something else they want to do with that free manuever: draw a weapon, reload a pistol or crossbow, engage or disengage or move, change which talent they have socketed, control their horse, etc.
Basically the choice players are frequently confronted with is:
Beyond that remember that assists must be declared on your turn, NOT the turn of the person you're assisting (unless you have the one Talent that over-rules that). Often this timing prevents players from assisting because they don't yet know what their comrade is planning to do three initiative numbers from now.
So with 7 players you may have the occasional freak turn where one or two PCs get +3 or more dice in assists, but that's not going to happen very often, and almost never in the first turn of any fight. I've run over 20 sessions with a table of 4 or more players each time, and during combat I have never seen anyone get more than 1 assist on any single action. YMMV.
Maybe I'm a bit stingy, but I wouldn't allow really any of those bonuses maybe beyond one white..
You're not stingy, you just misunderstood what I was saying because I wasn't as clear as I should have been when I spoke.
When I said:
I would argue that one could assist a ranged attack by any of the following:
- gauging the wind or distance to the target,
- providing advice on proper archery form,
- helping brace their aim,
- being "Johnny on the spot" with the ammo,
- watching their back so they can concentrate on their aim,
- distracting or baiting the target,
- or even just stepping aside so you're not in the way of the shot.
I wasn't trying to to argue for (nor would I even allow) all 7 of those things to be done to give 6 or 7 assists to a single Ranged Attack roll. I see why you'd interpret it that way (given the context of the thread being about gaming WFRP with 7 or 8 players) but that's not what I meant at all.
Instead I was merely trying to say that as GM I would have no problems with a player using any one of those rationales to explain them giving an assist on a Ranged Attack roll. Some of them are better justifications, or more universally applicable then others, but none of them would make me say "no" to a player.
My list of ranged attack assists was in direct reply to the post above mine (which I should have quoted then) where Gazery said they didn't allow Assists on Ranged Attacks at all. Quoted here for the sake of clarity and completeness:
Edited by r_b_bergstromWe don't use assists for ranged combat, but archers can aim as a manoeuvre - which enables them to gain a white die to an attack. (kind of like them assisting themselves)
I'd just like to clarify my statement as well. I didn't mean to imply that we don't allow Assist on Ranged Attacks but that we just haven't used Assist on Ranged Attacks. We also very rarely use Assist on Melee Attacks unless there is an obvious moment to use it and there is nothing better to spend your manoeuvre on.
In our party we have a Wardancer who is constantly using Manoeuvres to dance and pirouette around the battle scene - it's actually really exciting and interesting to listen to - but he never has spare manoeuvres. A blunderbuss/crossbow wielding Dwarf Engineer, who needs to spend Manoeuvres to reload and control his wagon. A Halfling who is usually too afraid to enter combat and so never gets close enough to Assist, but will often use Actions to aid others. A Human newly turned Priest who is the most likely to be in a position to use Manoeuvres to Assist, but usually has a better reason to spend them. And myself a Waywatcher, who is usually too far away from anyone else to Assist and preferably up a tree (hugging it if no-one is watching)
So for our party I agree that Manoeuvres can be used to Assist Ranged Attacks, it's just that we never have. But I will often spend a Manoeuvre to Aim and give myself a White Die on Ranged Attacks. I have worked out that I am able to add up to 8 White Dice to a single Ranged Attack of my own (not including Fortune Points) which come from 2 Specialisms, (bows and longbows) 1 Fortune Point on Agility, 1 from having a Bow of Athel Loren (superior longbow), 1 from selecting the enemy as my quarry, (from my previous Bounty Hunter Career) 1 from using the Action Hunter's Eye, 1 for using a Manoeuvre to Aim and 1 for having superior ground (up a tree
) It is very rare that I add 8 Fortune Dice, but I always add a minimum of 4 Fortune Dice to Ranged Attacks. This may seem a lot, but when I see the Wardancer spinning around combat and routinely adding 12+ Misfortune Dice to Enemy Attacks (and still get hit by the lowliest Gobbo!) it does make me want to add as many Fortune Dice as possible to give my Attack the best chance to succeed.
Gazery
(you probably didn't want to know about my white dice, but I wrote it any way!)
7 men improved guarded position in military warfare is called the turtle formation. It is a popular defensive formation since roman empire and old China and it is still used in modern warfare ( http://sfaw.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/roman-turtle-modern-version.jpg ).
So why not, by doing so your players do not get hit, but do not hit as well.
One more : https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3287056640/hC44FBB08/
7 men improved guarded position in military warfare is called the turtle formation. It is a popular defensive formation since roman empire and old China and it is still used in modern warfare ( http://sfaw.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/roman-turtle-modern-version.jpg ).
So why not, by doing so your players do not get hit, but do not hit as well.
One more : https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3287056640/hC44FBB08/
That is the problem with it. Players do not hit the enemy and can't be hit. So you have effectivly done absolutly nothing that round. Seems to me like a waste of time or the players just sitting it out to lower their action cards cooldown.
Edited by abidibladidudaSure, I can imagine a group of 5 dwarf ironbreakers, who are heavily trained, marching through the warrens of Karak Azgal still eventually getting their asses handed to them, as this isn't Roman times (or even the same planet), and the Romans weren't fighting supernatural creatures... Somehow even the mighty Romans, in their turtle formations, still manged to get beat, even in their columns.
It would be fun for an encounter or two with perfect circumstances, but if they're thinking they get to do it repeatedly, it may also demonstrate the necessity of variability of terrain and need for: disease, fire, insanity, mutation, curses, and BROKEN EQUIPMENT on chaos stars (or criticals against them). Could be fun to surpise the group, but gamer evolution occurs quickly in response to natural selection in games. When a character dies b/c of combat, the next character will come back tougher than the last because that's what the player has been conditioned to expect.
Other solutions?
jh
Edited by EmirikolThere is a very good, not supernatural, solution to break turtle formation. A solution used against roman by Celtic people: bee/wasp hives. Throw them in the heart of the formation and watch them run...
Seeing as you actually need a bee hive and throw it at the enemy I think this is a rather bad solution. Throwing bee hives at someone without getting stung or just having the whole thing backfire in your face sounds rather hard to pull off anyways. Actually I think you just get yourself in trouble if you take and try to throw it.
I also do not see how a group of PCs trains the use of a formation to actually be able to pull it off.
Edited by abidibladidudaI have found that for a large party of PCs it works well to have multiple things happening at the same time. Effectivly "forcing" them to split up.
For example the PCs might wander into a chaos raid on a small village. There might be two groups of beastmen attacking from different sides of the village and both groups need immidiate attention as the defending villagers on both sides seem to be close to loosing the fight. So the party could decide to stick together, attacking one of the beastman groups to wipe it out but it should be clear to them that a lot of the villagers would die on the side they decided not to defend. It should be clear to the players that splitting up is the better option, effectivly making the two PC groups in to normal sized parties.
Another version on the same theme is that the chaos beastmen attack from one side, but some buildings have been set on fire by the attacking beastmen and there are villagers needing to be rescued asap. Again the party could stay together and fight, but then a lot of villagers might burn to death, so to save more pepole it would be better for the players to split up. This also gives characters who are not as combat focused something else to do during the fight.
It's easy to come up with other "you can split up, or stay together" choices for the group. Where staying together is safer, but splitting up is more heroic in some way. Then it's up to the players to choose if they will take the safer path, or the heroic one.
