I was thinking about all the different force users that have been presented to us, from Revan in the Old Republic to Luke as the new Grand Master, to all the myriad of Jedi and Sith in between. It had me wondering....just where do all these different force users rank when compared to each other?

The more I thought about it, the more I realized I had no real idea. Who is stronger, Yoda as Grand Master or Luke? Would jedi of the new order compare to those of the Old Republic? After all, you would have to think that having so many force users in the Old Republic would make them stronger (the idea being that so much competition brings the strongest to the fore), right? I mean when you consider how many jedi and sith there were, it would stand to reason that a notable individual would have to be quite special indeed to receive notice above all the others. Plus you would have to factor in how easily accessible knowledge of the force was during those times. Perhaps though, the lack of so many force users forced later generations to reach greater heights. Certainly that seems to be what Bane believed by instating the Rule of Two for the Sith.

So, my request to you wonderful forum members is this. Rank your top most powerful force users, maybe top 5 or top 10. Hell, you could do more if you're feeling motivated. Give us some reasons why too, as I am really intrigued by the idea of this and would love to know what you are thinking when deciding who the most powerful is. Who's your number 1? Is Sidious stronger than a Bane or Revan? Would Luke stand a chance against either of those two? All questions I'd love to hear other's thoughts on. Cheers

What a wonderful question. I'm not exposed to as much EU as others are, and I'm not interested in turning this into a debate on what is canon or why certain facets of star wars is bad/good, so if that's you're response to my critique then can it.

1.) Emporer (gotta love that manipulative sonuva)

2.) Starkiller (Quoted to be as-good-as if not better than Vader where it not for this and that.)

3.) Anakin/Vader

4.) Yoda

5.) Revan

Revan did a lot more flashy things than what you see with the rest of the group, but I see that as much of a sign of the genre and times in which he appears (compared to the others) as much as anything else.

By Force ability:

1. Darth Sidious

2. Master Yoda

3. Darth Plagueis

4. Master Luke Skywalker

5. Darth Caedus

Honorable Mentions: Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn, Anakin Skywalker

Thoughts: All made "unconventional" use of the Force on a large scale. Even if they may not have been specifically the strongest, they could use their ability to greatest effect.

By combat skill:

1. Master Mace Windu

2. Master Luke Skywalker

3. Darth Vader

4. Knight Jaina Solo

5. Master Yoda

Honorable Mentions: Obi-Wan Kenobi, Darth Maul, General Grievous

Thoughts: Luke, Jaina, Grievous place so highly because they have used or defeated the most varied weapons and techniques (i.e. not only conventional blasters and Jedi- or Sith-wielded lightsabers, but also spacecraft and other weaponry used by Ssi-Ruvi, Yuuzhan Vong, Killik, Mandalorians, and others).

Hi people!

I had the same doubts when I readed about the Force Rating on Beta. Joker Two or anyone else with knowldges about SW and EU, can you use Force Rating too to classify them, pease?

Personally I believe that.

7. Legendary: Skywalkers, Starkiller, Revan and probably Palpatine and Yoda.

6. Formidable: Probably Jedi Council

etc...

Thanks!

I agree with Josep Maria just above me.

Though I would put Revan as number one over anyone,

I personnaly think he's the most powerful force user I've seen.

A very hard question to answer! I can only really answer it in terms of people I've enjoyed reading about and/or watching:

1. Darth/Jedi Revan. Rather, him during the KOTOR games, and less-so in how he was portrayed in the MMO. He was not only among the most powerful Force-users ever encountered, but he also possessed a number of other skills that would have made him either an incredible Jedi (had he not disappeared) or Sith (had he actually conquered the Republic and converted it before the Sith Empire rolled in): charisma, linguistics, a mastery of military tactics, combat technique, etc.

2. Darth Plagueis. By far the most interesting Sith I've read about, and - according to the novel - he was Sidious' superior in power up until his assassination by his apprentice (which, I think, was only achieved because a) his obsession with his experiments and mastery of midichlorians blinded him to Sidious' ambition, and b) said experiments being his focus removed him from placements of power that might have solidified his powerbase after the erosion of his company). There is a reason that Sidious honestly honours him with the title of Plagueis the Wise.

3. Darth Malgus. His story was interesting, and his assault on the Jedi Temple solidified my interest in him. He didn't lack for conviction, and his raw power and ferocity made him, to me, what Vader could have been if he hadn't lost most of his Force power via the amputation of most of his body.

4. Sith Assassin/Jedi Starkiller. Yes, he was ridiculously overpowered - and for that reason, I put him here in an incarnation that has him on more realistic levels of power. I liked his story, and whilst that puts me in the minority I'm not afraid to admit that I do. He was a Sith with loyalty, and one who was redeemed with love rather than condemned by it. Plus, I like the actor who rendered his model, and provided the voiceover for him.

5. Jedi Satele Shan. As Shans go, she was a lot less insufferable than Bastila, had greater control over her emotions (save when it led to her brief affair and child), and was powerful in her own right (she beat Malgus!). That and she was voiced by Jennifer Hale. :D

I hesitate to rank characters introduced or most prominently featured in video games, especially when they are the protagonist, for several reasons:

- Books take priority in my own personal order of canonicity, and I've read a LOT of Star Wars books.

- I've never played The Force Unleashed, and haven't gotten very far in Knights of the Old Republic.

- How rarely their characters are mentioned in existing materiel outside their own product line.

- I don't consider them particularly reliable measures of the universe, particularly because of how they handle existing canon loosely, and tend to work their own protagonist into almost every notable event in their timeframe. This is done to give the player an opportunity to connect the game to their prior Star Wars experience, not to rewrite galactic history.

Not that I deny their existence as characters, just that their abilities and actions are exaggerated for the sake of a cool and profitable video game.

Hi people!

I had the same doubts when I readed about the Force Rating on Beta. Joker Two or anyone else with knowldges about SW and EU, can you use Force Rating too to classify them, pease?

Personally I believe that.

7. Legendary: Skywalkers, Starkiller, Revan and probably Palpatine and Yoda.

6. Formidable: Probably Jedi Council

etc...

Thanks!

How much Force Rating you assign depends on how many times you can stack Control, Range, and Strength talents to affect uses of Force powers. My guess is that powerful Force-Users gain access to more of these talents than listed on the existing trees, for example:

At the Battle of Endor, Darth Sidious is using, continuously and more-or-less simultaneously:

- Influence Power: 2 Range (Personal-Medium) to fuel Luke's anger.

- Influence Power: ~8 Range (Planetary-Extreme) with 10+ Strength and 3+ Control to guide the Imperial Fleet with battle meditation.

- Influence Power: ~11 Range (Galactic-Long) with 3+ Control to imprint his last command on Mara Jade.

- Sense Power: ~8 Range (Planetary-Extreme) with 1+ Control to monitor the Imperial Fleet.

- Sense Power: 2 Range (Personal-Medium) with 2+ Control to protect himself from Luke.

- "Manifest" Power: 1+ Range (Personal-Short) with 2+ Control and 2 Strength to generate Force Lightning.

- "Manifest" Power: 0 Range (Personal-Engaged) with 5+ Control to preserve his spirit after his death.

Which means he's using or committing 7 or more Force Dice and has at least three times the listed upgrades on several existing powers, as well as using multiple instances of at least one currently unwritten power.

The EotE beta had this chart.

Force Rating

Rating_____Maginitude_____Examples

Zero_______No Affinity_____Common Populace

1_________Sensitive_______Jedi Initiate

2_________Tenuous_______A self-taught exile, Padawan

3_________Moderate______A young Jedi Knight

4_________Strong_________A well-trained Jedi Knight

5_________Potent_________A veteran Jedi Knight

6_________Formidable_____Jedi Master, Sith Lord

7_________Legendary_____The most truly heroic Jedi or most villainous Sith Lords

The problem with these sorts of questions is they invariably turn into pissing matches about which Force-user has the bigger Schwartz.

Honestly, most of the "top tier" Force-users, be they Jedi, Sith, or something else are simply as powerful as the plot requires them to be. Also on how well the author understands that "the Force" doesn't equal "superpowers and/or do-anything magic."

Revan got talked up a lot in KOTOR2 to almost fanboyish levels, so I'd take his/her reputation with a grain of salt.

The Emperor's powers got talked up a lot by EU authors, particularly in the Dark Empire series where he was frankly more of a D&D wizard with the stunts he pulled than a Force-user, and the Tales of the Jedi series turning the Sith more into wizards than sticking to the "psychic abilities" feel that the movies presented, as well as turning what was a bad-ass effect (Force Lightning) into a fairly common parlor trick (this was especially true in the d20 RPGs but also WEG d6 system as well, though you had to meet a few pre-reqs in d6 in order to select the power). And I highly doubt that was actually was simultaneously doing all that Force stuff that Joker Two listed, and especially not with the powers as FFG has presented them currently (particularly the Sense stuff).

Some great responses!

Hi people!

I had the same doubts when I readed about the Force Rating on Beta. Joker Two or anyone else with knowldges about SW and EU, can you use Force Rating too to classify them, pease?

Personally I believe that.

7. Legendary: Skywalkers, Starkiller, Revan and probably Palpatine and Yoda.

6. Formidable: Probably Jedi Council

etc...

Thanks!

Personally I wasn't looking for people to try and fit their rankings into game terms, as there is just too much information regarding how Jedi and Sith work in the system, but if people would like to try and rate them that of course is their choice!

@Donovan Morningfire

I'm very aware of the potential for, let's call it "thread degradation." Hopefully this doesn't happen and people can just discuss intelligently

For me personally, I never really even considered adding Starkiller to the list, simply because to me those whole games were about being over the top and ridiculous, purely for the fun of it. Also, I seem to have a lot more respect for Darth Bane than anybody else,perhaps that's just me? My list would be as follows...

1. Revan- I know, I know, a lot of almost fanboy level of stuff out there for Revan, but it's just hard to argue with what he's done. He's proven that he's capable of being both an incredibly powerful jedi and Sith, and one who was able to get others to follow him unto death at every turn. He defeats some of the best Jedi and Sith of his age

2. Grand Master Luke Skywalker- Luke, seemingly, only grows stronger and stronger with age. He ends up with knowledge of many different force techniques, and how many times do we get to see Luke romp through his enemies? There is a scene in the (admittedly awful) Fate of the Jedi series where he and Ben fight literally dozens of Sith and that to me just kind of showed how strong he had become.

3. Darth Plagueis- Palpatine pretty much admits to this guy always being stronger than him, and he is highly interesting. As mentioned before, there is reason Palpatine refers to him as "the wise"

4. Darth Sidious- Hard to argue with this guy, I mean just go watch the movies again. Yeah, that's all him (a little help from his master ). He beats Yoda, and several Jedi masters (though I wouldn't include Mace Windu in that group).

5. Yoda- Yoda may not be the biggest powerhouse on this list , but I think he was definitely the wisest. He does lose in a fight to Palpatine, but part of me does wonder whether or not if he'd been younger he could have won. He trains some of the best and brightest jedi, including Luke, so the little green guy comes in pretty high.

6. Darth Bane- I've got a lot of respect for the big man. I know, he only gets three books, but I don't think that means he lacks quanity, just quality. He studies at the Sith academy and is more powerful than all the other rival apprentices. he even battles against the weaponsmaster and wins. Also helping his cause are the holocrons he finds and employs, including Revan's. The man manages to use a thought-bomb to wipe pretty much everybody out, so that's another point in his favor. I know he loses to his apprentice but...isn't that what he wanted to happen after all?

7. Mace Windu- Mace is another guy I've got some respect for. I put him lower than Yoda because well Yoda is the Grand Master and I believe Yoda is the stronger of the two. He also manages to hold Sidious to a draw so that makes it a little difficult, but overall I think this is a good fit for him.

8. Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus- At one point, the amount of force techniques Jacen has is truly bewildering. He's always listed as being pretty powerful, but because he never really beats any other force users of note aside from Mara, he doesn't get moved up the list.

9. Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader- This was a tough one, but for me he's down here because of the fact that he never really gets to mature into his power. He may have been one of the most powerful if not for the whole falling in lava becoming a robot thing, so he comes in at number 9.

10. Jaina Solo- This ten spot was definitely the toughest, and I'm not 100% on this choice. I'm choosing her mainly because she does defeat Caedus, and is trained in how to fight in many different ways. They call her the "Sword of the Jedi" and I would hope that it's not an empty title. There are a lot of force users who could have slotted in here.

Which means he's using or committing 7 or more Force Dice and has at least three times the listed upgrades on several existing powers, as well as using multiple instances of at least one currently unwritten power.

Another example of why it's silly to explain movie scenes using the game's mechanics. Even if Palpy was using all those powers...which I don't believe to be true.

In so far as Yoda vs. Sidious, I think it's a case of where Sidious might have had a bit more raw power, but Yoda had centuries of wisdom and experience backing him up. I'd peg them as both being Force Rating 6 in terms of how "strong" they were, but again it was the sake of plot that Sidious won that particular fight (otherwise, no Episodes 4 thru 6). I remember reading a web article that was pretty much an analysis of the fight, and that in the end, it simply came down to dumb luck that Yoda was on a ledge and not able to catch himself from falling all the way down, where Palps was able to grab a railing, otherwise, they were pretty evenly matched. The "throwing the Senate, the whole Senate!" scene was read as Palps using a desperation tactic; notice that Yoda had little trouble dodging them or catching one and sending it right back, eliciting a brief look of shock as he realizes that he'd better leap away if he doesn't want to get smooshed.

Luke's always been a problem child where the EU is concerned, mostly due to authors treating the Force as a mix of magic and superpowers and letting him develop new powers as the plot demanded. Though if anyone would rate a Force Rating of 7, it'd be him, at least by the time of the New Jedi Order series, since he's supposed to what Anakin (aka the Chosen One) could have been had he not been maimed on Mustafar. Truthfully, I think Tim Zahn was the only author to really write Luke in a believable manner in terms of what he could do with the Force, with a decent author's saving throw attempted in the Hand of Thrawn duology to explain previous EU authors having Luke be so ungodly powerful... **** shame later authors went right back to making Luke the Star Wars equivalent of Silver Age Superman.

Mace Windu wasn't necessarily a powerful Force-user (Force Rating 5 I'd say), but he was one heck of a lightsaber duelist, and very well could have won that fight with Sidious. In game terms, he'd have plenty of combat and lightsaber-based talents to make him an utter badass in a fight.

Luke's always been a problem child where the EU is concerned, mostly due to authors treating the Force as a mix of magic and superpowers and letting him develop new powers as the plot demanded. Though if anyone would rate a Force Rating of 7, it'd be him, at least by the time of the New Jedi Order series, since he's supposed to what Anakin (aka the Chosen One) could have been had he not been maimed on Mustafar. Truthfully, I think Tim Zahn was the only author to really write Luke in a believable manner in terms of what he could do with the Force, with a decent author's saving throw attempted in the Hand of Thrawn duology to explain previous EU authors having Luke be so ungodly powerful... **** shame later authors went right back to making Luke the Star Wars equivalent of Silver Age Superman.

It's funny that you're talking about believability when it comes to something that doesn't have anything like it in the real world, namely the Force. Vehicles, weapons, etc... all have something to match them against for "realism", but not the Force. So, when Luke's the protagonist, the authors want him to win, heheh. The Force is just the Deus Ex Machina that he uses to do so. Oops, he's in trouble, the Force will get him out. Sort of like Spock on Star Trek.

Wasn't Kyp Durron supposed to be really, really strong with the Force?

Wasn't Kyp Durron supposed to be really, really strong with the Force?

Supposedly, but that got brushed to the side when Kevin J. Anderson left to go ruin the Dune franchise. Kyp's not exactly a fan favorite seeing as how he pulled a Karma Houdini after committing an act of mass genocide on par (if not worse than) the destruction of Alderaan.

Kallabecca,

Actually, the Force as presented in the movies is less magic and more a type of psionic ability, falling within the general realms of psychic powers, such as empathy, limited telepathy, telekinesis, physical enhancement, and precognition. As you said, the less capable writers simply used "Luke's a powerful Force-user" as a crutch for when they had painted the good guys into a corner and simply couldn't come up with some other way to still have them win.

Courtship of Princess Leia is a shining example of this, with Luke able to pilot the Falcon via the Force with more skill than Han with a full crew complement could ever hope to manage. I don't recall the series, but there was also one where Luke single-handedly rebuilt Vader's palace on Coruscant with the Force, a stark contrast to seeing Yoda looking a bit winded from merely lifting an X-Wing. Then there's Legacy and Fate of the Jedi, where the only reason there's much of a challenge at all is because the authors can't have Luke simply end the entire plot arc in the first couple novels.

In contrast, there's Shadows of the Empire where it's Lando's willingness to do something incredibly foolish that's the main factor in winning the day against Xizor as opposed to Luke pulling some new Force power/ability out of his arse to save them all. The only "nifty" Force thing that Luke really did in that book was go into bullet time against Guri, but that itself falls in line with "enhanced combat prowess" that Jedi were generally known for. There's also Timothy Zahn's works, where Luke is certainly powerful, but he's not God Mode Sue levels of powerful.

Where Revan's concerned, I don't tend to look at how he's referenced in KOTOR II or SWTOR (especially the latter); instead, I merely go on how he's portrayed in the first game of that series, and what we know he was able to accomplish (rather than what he's rumoured to have done).

As Kreia, his master and a Sith Lord herself, said: "Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."

Donovan has pointed out correctly that debates like this will rarely have a shared answer, because in a setting like this the question of "who's strongest" always falls back to "any and all of them, depending on whose story you're watching/reading/telling." This is why I listed my picks in the order of which I most enjoyed following, rather than who I believed to be the strongest Force user or warrior.

Wasn't Kyp Durron supposed to be really, really strong with the Force?

Supposedly, but that got brushed to the side when Kevin J. Anderson left to go ruin the Dune franchise. Kyp's not exactly a fan favorite seeing as how he pulled a Karma Houdini after committing an act of mass genocide on par (if not worse than) the destruction of Alderaan.

Wasn't Kyp Durron supposed to be really, really strong with the Force?

Supposedly, but that got brushed to the side when Kevin J. Anderson left to go ruin the Dune franchise. Kyp's not exactly a fan favorite seeing as how he pulled a Karma Houdini after committing an act of mass genocide on par (if not worse than) the destruction of Alderaan.

OK. I only remember reading some of the stuff on him during the Vong war where he was described as being really badass. As for the karma turn, I'm OK with redemption stories, even ones dialed to the max.

Well, it wasn't so much a redemption story as "Wow kid, you really screwed up... *shrug* It happens, no big deal."

I was thinking about all the different force users that have been presented to us, from Revan in the Old Republic to Luke as the new Grand Master, to all the myriad of Jedi and Sith in between. It had me wondering....just where do all these different force users rank when compared to each other?

The more I thought about it, the more I realized I had no real idea. Who is stronger, Yoda as Grand Master or Luke? Would jedi of the new order compare to those of the Old Republic? After all, you would have to think that having so many force users in the Old Republic would make them stronger (the idea being that so much competition brings the strongest to the fore), right? I mean when you consider how many jedi and sith there were, it would stand to reason that a notable individual would have to be quite special indeed to receive notice above all the others. Plus you would have to factor in how easily accessible knowledge of the force was during those times. Perhaps though, the lack of so many force users forced later generations to reach greater heights. Certainly that seems to be what Bane believed by instating the Rule of Two for the Sith.

So, my request to you wonderful forum members is this. Rank your top most powerful force users, maybe top 5 or top 10. Hell, you could do more if you're feeling motivated. Give us some reasons why too, as I am really intrigued by the idea of this and would love to know what you are thinking when deciding who the most powerful is. Who's your number 1? Is Sidious stronger than a Bane or Revan? Would Luke stand a chance against either of those two? All questions I'd love to hear other's thoughts on. Cheers

I have ~0 knowledge about EU, but from the movies I would say:

1. Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious (Rank 7)- was able to conceal himself from the jedi council and rise to power and overthrow the jedi council.

2. Master Yoda (Rank 7)- was able to fight #1 to a draw in single combat.

3. Mace Windu (Rank 7)- seemed to be Yoda's equal on the jedi council and was also able to beat #1 in single combat (possibly, though it is impossible to know if Palpatine was bluffing to get Anakin's aid or really was defeated...he was manipulative enough that I feel that he could have been in control of the situation the entire time...even if it didn't seem so).

4. Obi-Wan Kenobi (Rank 7)- he was legendary enough to be known to the rebellion...was able to defeat #5 in episode 3 (although he allowed #5 to win in episode 4).

5. Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader (Rank 7)- was able to hunt down and kill all remaining jedi; was instrumental in the death of #'s 1, 3, and 4 (to help bring balance to the force...by essentially removing all trained force users from the universe)

The Jedi Council members were likely all Rank 6's or 7's. I would put Dooku in the same range as well. Quaigon would likely fall to the "6" range. Same with Darth Maul and Luke Skywalker. Luke was not able to really even contend with Darth Vader to a large extent without turning to the dark side (lost an arm to him early in his career), and was getting beaten by the emperor before his father stepped in and threw the emperor away. It sounds like he became more powerful in the EU, but I wouldn't know.