I've been trying to figure out some numbers with a friend for tie-wing uglies. We use the die-wing card that turns all hit damage into critical damage, but I wanted to make a better ship for the mini. I came up with this:

PS4

2-2-3-1

ept

14 points.

My friend said it should be closer to 16 points.

I think we compromised and said PS 5 and 15 points.

I tried to base the values on Black Squadron.

Thoughts?

Red Squadron pilots who are trained, well motivated, and experienced pilots are only PS4 and don't have EPT.

Pirates are poorly trained, poorly motivated, and have little experience in an actual dogfight as most of their engagements will involve the target running away, or surrendering. I would question them being able to get PS4 and certainly no to EPT. Many named characters don't have EPT, so your regular pirates shouldn't either. Save EPT's for named pilots in general.

I've been trying to figure out some numbers with a friend for tie-wing uglies. We use the die-wing card that turns all hit damage into critical damage, but I wanted to make a better ship for the mini. I came up with this:

PS4

2-2-3-1

ept

14 points.

My friend said it should be closer to 16 points.

I think we compromised and said PS 5 and 15 points.

I tried to base the values on Black Squadron.

Thoughts?

Red Squadron pilots who are trained, well motivated, and experienced pilots are only PS4 and don't have EPT.

Pirates are poorly trained, poorly motivated, and have little experience in an actual dogfight as most of their engagements will involve the target running away, or surrendering. I would question them being able to get PS4 and certainly no to EPT. Many named characters don't have EPT, so your regular pirates shouldn't either. Save EPT's for named pilots in general.

So base it more on Obsidian?

PS3

2-2-3-1

13pts

?

I would say that you would have academy level pilots, and better trained, more experienced pilots.

PS1 and PS3 seems about right for the level of ability that you would expect from them.

I'm kinda split on this one.

Alright. Say we use this ship type for Mercenaries. Would this be more appropriate for that? ...

PS4

2-2-3-1

ept

14 points

I kind-of think that people who fight and pillage for a living might be higher pilot skill than academy ties.

Alright. Say we use this ship type for Mercenaries. Would this be more appropriate for that? ...

PS4

2-2-3-1

ept

14 points

I kind-of think that people who fight and pillage for a living might be higher pilot skill than academy ties.

Pirates avoid dogfights unless they have the overwhelming advantage. After all this is a business and it isn't cost effective to lose ships in a battle if you can avoid it. So Pirates have low skill levels.

Mercenaries on the other hand will generally be more experienced and will sit around PS3 and PS4 as they are ex Army/Navy.

It's like he took small parts of different ships and added them all together and it still didn't make a whole ship.

How about these figures for the tie-wing:

Pirate escort PS1 2-2-3-0 10 pts. + focus

Die wing PS3 2-2-3-0 7 pts. + focus. Turn all "hit" damage cards face up.

Mercenary wingman PS4 2-2-3-1 14 pts. + focus +barrel roll +ept

Berzerker PS5 2-2-3-0 17pts. + focus + barrel roll + Action: may perform two attacks this round.

I know what you're thinking, but nobody is going to buy ten of these minis to use. Anyhow, they only have two agility and three hull. Using Black Squadron as a base for the Merc, I moved one agility to a shield. Take into note that BS also has ept and evade.

I didn't make up the Die Wing. Someone else gets credit for that. I played one last week and it was very humorous.

The Berzerker Action came up on another thread this morning, plus a friend texted the exact same thing to me at the same time! Coincidence? I think not.

Thoughts?

Let me just say...AWESOME build. the work on the ships is sweet and the cards look clean. I will not argue the stats, because I am not too faimilar with the ships. Black Sun flew anything they could get their hands on. anyone remember what they flew in "The Hutt Gambit?"

Pretty sure 12pts is the basement for a combat capable ship 2 attack die, 2 agility, and focus is still pretty potent. 2 more ships at 3 hull each and still having access to focus is still a lot of HP to chew through. You made the swarm a little easier to hit but you gave them 2 more ships!

Double attack has no place here and definitely not at 17pts. Also, so far no ship has had individual rules text. I prefer to keep it that way.

You're certainly in the right direction. Good work but needs some balancing.

Pretty sure 12pts is the basement for a combat capable ship 2 attack die, 2 agility, and focus is still pretty potent. 2 more ships at 3 hull each and still having access to focus is still a lot of HP to chew through. You made the swarm a little easier to hit but you gave them 2 more ships!

Double attack has no place here and definitely not at 17pts. Also, so far no ship has had individual rules text. I prefer to keep it that way.

You're certainly in the right direction. Good work but needs some balancing.

Comparing it to academy ties, the pirate escort cannot barrel roll or evade. Plus it is one evade die short. The loss of an evade is a heavy deal by itself. I figured that these losses might be greater than two point value but I didn't want to go below ten.

Do you have recommendations for elite pilots or otherwise?

The Action:"attack" on Berzerker might work if he had to take two stress, or not roll any attack dice the next time he fires, plus take stress, etc.

You traded 7-8 ships at 3 AG for 10ships with 2AG. Those 2 extra ships provide you with 6 more HP and 4 more dice to attack with. It's a pretty solid trade even without BR/evade. Evade would make it a pretty great straight up trade. I would probably be more worried about being able to bring 7-8 of these to bear AND still have 20-30pts left over.

For elite pirate stuff they might play with initiative order or have some kind of scavange abilities. Also, being able to fire at a ship after overlapping would be good. Maybe one that allows you to place an extra asteroid? Or move an asteroid or something.

I'm still against double attack.

You traded 7-8 ships at 3 AG for 10ships with 2AG. Those 2 extra ships provide you with 6 more HP and 4 more dice to attack with. It's a pretty solid trade even without BR/evade. Evade would make it a pretty great straight up trade. I would probably be more worried about being able to bring 7-8 of these to bear AND still have 20-30pts left over.

For elite pirate stuff they might play with initiative order or have some kind of scavange abilities. Also, being able to fire at a ship after overlapping would be good. Maybe one that allows you to place an extra asteroid? Or move an asteroid or something.

I'm still against double attack.

I've had all day to think about it. I'm not thinking that a double attack is right. I do kind-of like the Action:attack + stress, no attack during combat phase. It's similar to Advance Sensors.

Arvel is PS6 and is 6 points higher than the base Awing.

10pt pirate escort + 6 pts = Rak Wisto, PS6 with Arvel's ability.

So the local nerds dished last night and this is what we came up with.

Pirate Escort PS1 2-2-3-0 10 pts. focus.

Die Wing PS3 2-1-3-0 7 pts. focus. [Resolve damage cards face up]

Mercenary Wingman PS4 2-2-3-1 14 pts. focus, br, +ept.

Bossk PS6 2-2-3-1 20 pts. foc, br, tl [Action:perform one pimary weapon attack. Receive two stress]

Villar PS7 2-2-3-1 17 pts. foc, br, tl [When you reveal your maneuver dial, you may perform a primary weapon attack. May not perform another attack this round. Receive two stress]

Ausgezeichnet:)

I just listened ot the correllian-audiobook when Han talks about how he hates Uglies.

I would recomend lowering the hull OR dexterity on the ships, just to show how crappy they are

Alternatively some special rule for them

(eg: when you get a face down damage card, roll an evade die. On an evade result, flipp it face up)

Villar is a nice way to ensure he "always" gets to shoot first and never get killed before shooting. I don't think it even requires2 stress, probably just one.

I still think your baseline points are too low. 10 and 7 are just asking for 2hr+ games, swarm shenanigans, and the named pilots are very valuable. Diewing (unless its an all together different ship) should be a cost reduction title; ships don't have special abilities. NO EPT on a non-named merc at PS 4 at 14pts. Still don't like double attack, even with 2 stress.

Sorry to sound harsh but it seems like your new faction is just "not as good" as the empire. Imperial lists have high numbers because of cheap ships and strong named pilots. Your faction has even cheaper ships and even stronger named pilots.

Your faction needs an identity. Maybe a new action and some odd dials or upgrades.

Jury rig: During the set up step choose one extra droid, systems upgrade, or modification card. Action: You are considered to have this upgrade until the end of the round. Gain one stress token.

Not perfect but you get th idea- they force thier ships to do things they shouldn't be able to do through ingenuity or necessity. Or something like an alternate set up to represent their "trap" or "ambush" tendancies. Those could be modification slots too.

Ambush slot-

Vanguard, 1pt- after all players have finished their set up you may select 1 white or green manuever. Perform that maneuver.

Asteroid, 2pts- this ship does not start on the map. During the first reveal dial phase place this ship touching any one asteroid instead of performing a maneuver. This ship is not considered overlapping for this round.

Would give them thier own feel, own specials, and add new tactical options to the game. Keeps in flavor too.

I'm not sure 2-1-3-0, counting all hits as criticals... most of the time 1 or 2 shots at them and they will be toast.. even at 7pts with 14 of them on the board I can't see games lasting silly lengths of time.

I was thinking about things like this for pilot upgrades,

• enemy does not get additional agility dice when being shot through asteroids.
• If this pilot moves through an asteroid roll an evade dice. On an evade it ignores all effects from the asteroid.
• While outside of the enemies primary weapon arc may reroll one attack or evade dice against them.
• gain an additional attack dice if another one of your ships has the target within range 3 and primary weapon arc.

Things that feel like they are used to working in packs and ambushing shipping lanes.

"The Good the Bad and the Uglies!"

Hello to everyone!

I'm a X-Wing fan form oversees (Germany) and I want to show you the progress of my 3rd Faction

Project: Black Sun Pirates. Well, and I love uglies!

Well, I guess my English is not perfect, but I hope you guys and girls can handle it.

First of all I have to say, that Black Sun and Pirates are different faction. Furthermore,

in the STAR WARS Universe we have many many different pirate factions, but I want to build a faction witch is big enough to fight against the Rebels and the Imperials. This faction should be a strong counterpart to the two major faction. So here are my Black Sun Pirates!

(The fist Pirate Squadron - ready to fight!)

The idea comes from the internet and it goes back to it. I found a DIE-Wing and a Y-TIE ship card at the "a few maneuvers" and start thinking, building and testing. My idea was to create a faction that combines both strengths of the major fractions; Imperials high shipcount and Rebels durable and hard hitting X Wings. The weakness of the Pirates are bad, rotten, scavenge ships, in comprehension to the Rebels with lower hull and shields and to the Imperials with lower agility and maneuverability. (Well A-Wing and TIE-Bomber don't fit in this computation, but anyway... )

"It is a vast criminal syndicate…its influence felt on every planet from the Core Worlds to the Outer Rim. Black Sun has existed for hundreds of years, and embedded itself in the very fiber of the galaxy. The resources at its disposal are almost limitless. The soldiers under its command number in the tens of thousands. The ignorant even call it the most powerful force in the known universe."

―Darth Sidious, to Darth Maul

I did a bit of reconstructing, card-building and blanching. Noting final yet, but the pirates did some test fights against Rebel and Imperial lists. I had to rise the cost oft the ships, because the where to strong at first.

(A4 printable ship card sheet, send me a pm and I send you the file. Try them, they are fun to play!)

(Inspired from the card build editor and the developer of the DIE-Wing and Y-TIE card builder Guest__*) Look here http://www.afewmaneuvers.com/forum/24-uglies/

OK, lets go down to business, m y first setup was this:

DIE-Wing 8

Y-TIE 16

Deathseed 17

X-Ceptor 18

With the DIE-Wing the Pirates gets a week, but very low cost ship. With the X-Ceptor and the Deathseed they get a X-Wing-like ship. That means a high shipcount and pretty durable and hard hitting X-Wing-like ships in one list. This wars a bit to overpowered in my opinion. The pirates could run a 8 ship list with 4 X-Wing-like ships and 4 DIE-Wings. (4x17+4x8=100)

So, I altered the deal:

DIE-Wing 10

Y-TIE 17

Deathseed 22

X-Ceptor 22

Now, the maximum is 4 X-Wing-like ships and 1 DIE-Wing. Maybe a bit to expensive now, but when you compare a Rookie with a Deathseed or X-Ceptor, the Pirates are still strong, with a pilotskill of 3 they shoot first and the one less shield isn't a to big drawback, when you can kill first. Ok, but how do they fight against 24 points Red Squadron Pilot? Well, maybe I try the Deathseed and X-Ceptor at 21, same as the X-Wing, or even 20, but with 20 we have a 6 ship build with 4 x-wing-like ships and 2 DIY-Wing blockers.. too strong? Hmm, hard to say. Think about the 10 DIE Wing swarm and the 4 DIE-Wing and 3 Deathseed build. It needs many testgames with different players and builds to balance this right...

(Pirate test fight - no enemy in sight... yet)

I like the idea of having a Deathseed with barrelroll and evade and a X-Ceptor with targetlook, a astromach (of course, only generic) droid and torpedos at the same cost. So you have to decide witch actions and upgrades you prefer and I think it fits quite well in the theme of the both ships.

The Y-TIE is basically the Y-Wing for the Pirates, but with a build in missile-modifiction and lower hull and shields. It can carry the ion cannon witch is very thematic for the pirates in order to robe and other scavenge ships. (Are still some pirate campaigns out there?)

We although have to talk and think about maneuverability of the ships. For now I use for the the DIE-Wing and the Y-TIE a Y-Wing dial and for the Deathseed an X-Ceptor the X-Wing dail. I think the Y-Wing dial is OK for them, but the X Wing dial needs a bit of modification in order to reflect the lower maneuverability of the scavenged ships. So maybe the straight 4 and the hard 3 turns have to be red.

I have some ideas for pirate only upgrade cards, too. So lets have a look.

Suicide Device - Modification - DIE Wing only - Action: Destroy your ship, every ship in Range 1 suffers 1 Damage. (3)

Pirate Instincts - Modification - Pirates only - Your Pilot Skill is +3 (1)

Bomb Slot - Modification - Y-TIE only - Add the (Bomb) symbol to your tool bar. (1)

R5-P8 - Astromach Droid (unique) - Pirates Only - Secondary Attack - Range 1 - 360 degree Attack 3 (4)

What do you think? Any other ideas?

Now we come to the big things! For now the Pirates can use both the Outer Rim Smuggler and the Bounty Hunter! So you can run both ships in one List. This is fun to play. Well, more pilots and even other big ships like Xizors Virago would be a good thing...

Another point is named pirate pilots. I'm developing some. I let you know, when there are ready.

(Pirates under construction, one X and one Int. makes one Deathseed and one X-Ceptor)

I hope you like the Project and I'm happy for every constitutive comment. I need your help to develop this 3rd Faction Project: Black Sun Pirates and love to see more ideas and good thoughts about the theme and gameplay based topics. Maybe some of you like this and help to develop a really good looking and nice balanced DIY 3rd faction. Let's build the Black Sun Pirates a 3rd faction for the wonderful X-Wing boardgame! Thanks for reading!

Those are some cool minis. I am not sure if Black Sun would use them though because they had a fleet of ships made by Mando motors. Their was atleast three types of Star Fighter they had, one was one or the most Heavily armred and armored starfighters in the G.S.W. although it aparently sucked at turning or going anywhere fast. The Zann faction should also get in on this game I think they prob use the same fighters because they by their cap ships and ground vehicles from Mando motors.

The 7pointer I'm less worried about. I just don't like them having a ship ability rather than pilot ability. Also, could still get powerful if named pilots or EPT combos became that cheap.

I like your pilot skill suggestions too.

Really I could see the opposite being the case, I think almost all upgrades are going to be hideously overpriced on the die-Wing, consider the % of the ships based cost you are spending. Putting a 3 pt upgrade on a ship that is Agility 1 and has 3 Hull is madness.

Villar is a nice way to ensure he "always" gets to shoot first and never get killed before shooting. I don't think it even requires2 stress, probably just one.

I still think your baseline points are too low. 10 and 7 are just asking for 2hr+ games, swarm shenanigans, and the named pilots are very valuable. Diewing (unless its an all together different ship) should be a cost reduction title; ships don't have special abilities. NO EPT on a non-named merc at PS 4 at 14pts. Still don't like double attack, even with 2 stress.

We were going back and forth abotu Villars stress. Also, we considered him to be PS5, but it was thought that he might be too dangerous to enemy elite pilots because they wouldn't be able to perform their maneuver and fly away. His higher PS allows more ships to fly out of sight before he gets to choose wether or not to take an early shot.

I see now what you mean with cheaper points. I'll talk to my homies and present that argument. It was kind-of brought up yesterday when we talked about the Fringe faction in the Star Wars Minis game. The pieces could do special things, could be hired by both sides, but cost more.

As far as having games go for rediculous time limits, already a problem with the number of ships we already field. Not really an issue.

The Mercenary is based on Black Squadron. I think that ept is appropriate for a military veteran pilot. No evade action, less evade dice, same cost.

The Action: primary weapon attack. This was my friend's idea. He wanted to play it, for the point cost and the survivability of the ship, I agreed. If the player decided to do the special attack action, that ship will not have focus tokens for at least two rounds to use in defense. I agree that is is a strong ability, but it is also cripling on a weak ship to boot.

I was thinking about things like this for pilot upgrades,

• enemy does not get additional agility dice when being shot through asteroids.
• If this pilot moves through an asteroid roll an evade dice. On an evade it ignores all effects from the asteroid.
• While outside of the enemies primary weapon arc may reroll one attack or evade dice against them.
• gain an additional attack dice if another one of your ships has the target within range 3 and primary weapon arc.

Things that feel like they are used to working in packs and ambushing shipping lanes.

These are some good ideas. I especially like the fourth bullet point. Very powerful for swarm. What PS were you thinking for these?

I think the PS1 tie wing could use the first two especially. Point values would definitely need adjusting.

I'm not sure 2-1-3-0, counting all hits as criticals... most of the time 1 or 2 shots at them and they will be toast.. even at 7pts with 14 of them on the board I can't see games lasting silly lengths of time.

I didn't make this card. Someone else on the forum did. Flying them is a risk.

The 7pointer I'm less worried about. I just don't like them having a ship ability rather than pilot ability. Also, could still get powerful if named pilots or EPT combos became that cheap.

I like your pilot skill suggestions too.

We discussed ept and the proposed named pilots. We overwhelmingly decided against ept for Villar and Bossk in their current roles. Your concern was our concern, so we didn't go that route.

Really I could see the opposite being the case, I think almost all upgrades are going to be hideously overpriced on the die-Wing, consider the % of the ships based cost you are spending. Putting a 3 pt upgrade on a ship that is Agility 1 and has 3 Hull is madness.

Exactly. I doubt anyone would dump a lot into these expendables.

I may have missed this action but it would be cool if two pirates attack a ship with a lower pilot skill they could hijack the ship and take it as their own....not sure how to make that happen logistically.

I'm not sure 2-1-3-0, counting all hits as criticals... most of the time 1 or 2 shots at them and they will be toast.. even at 7pts with 14 of them on the board I can't see games lasting silly lengths of time.

I was thinking about things like this for pilot upgrades,

• enemy does not get additional agility dice when being shot through asteroids.
• If this pilot moves through an asteroid roll an evade dice. On an evade it ignores all effects from the asteroid.
• While outside of the enemies primary weapon arc may reroll one attack or evade dice against them.
• gain an additional attack dice if another one of your ships has the target within range 3 and primary weapon arc.

Things that feel like they are used to working in packs and ambushing shipping lanes.

I think I'll plug the first one in for PS1 and the last one for PS4. Card text will not that there is a limit of four of each of those ship types. Bumped the PS1 cost to 11 points and the PS4 to 16.

Again, unnamed pilots do not get rules text!

I see what you're going for and you're getting closer but I still don't feel like your faction has an identity. It's the best and worst of the 2 other factions and while that might work at the casual level it doesn't inspire me to want to play your faction. The one point bump was neccasary. I still think Title is the way to go for a diewing.

I think the 2 traits that a pirate faction should have are ambush and acquisition. My Juryrig action and ambush upgrade can account for that. Juryrig upgrade might need some clarification:

Juryrig- before set up choose one non-unique droid, modification, or system upgrade not equipt to your ship at no extra cost. Action: you have that chosen upgrade until the end of turn. Gain one stress token.

You could even have it be an upgrade from an enemy ship or a destroyed enemy ship (but take no stress to get it anymore- but that might be the "scavenge" action instead).

Ambush also allows them to change combat tactics by setting up differently or with an advantage. Again, something pirates would want to do, spacefaring or not. Right now you're still using imperial and rebel left overs instead of doing your own thing; that's cool for fluff but not for a 3rd faction to a well balanced minis game.