Temporary in the 40k universe could literally be decades if not hundreds of years and that's just taking into account warp travel shenanigans... That's more than enough game time to cover most campaigns.

Of course the Squats still exist when I run games so...

So, you wouldn't let me play a Half-Eldar Space Marine Librarian in your game Traejun? /sadface

Fair enough re: time. Temporary could still be many centuries, or even more. So, that is a fair point.

Squats exist in mine too. Though I hear GW may have retcon'ed them back in.

And, no, bro... no half-Eldar Space Marine Librarians. Half-Ork maybe...

Uh, I have no idea what your demands are to consider it "permanent"; I would consider an agreement between a Rogue Trader and a Chapter to be pretty darn well "permanent".

As for wanting to be a Space Marine being "a lack of ability to roleplay" and a "lack of creativity" just because the Space Marines is one of the most well-known things among 40k fans.. seriously? If anyone seems to be lacking the ability to roleplay, it's you, for not even being capable of envisioning the multitude of ways that this situation may come about.

It's only a lack of roleplaying ability or creativity if you are incapable of creating a character as it's own character; a Space Marine is no more "just another Space Marine" than a guardsman is "just another imperial guardsman".

I shudder to ask, but in your mind, how would a space marine really act "around/towards anyone that isn't the RT.

"? I fear for the answer, but I just have to ask.

The first part is addressed above. I suppose "permanency" loses some of its meaning in the 40K universe.

As for the rest, we simply have to agree to disagree. Actual RT careers (plus the many xenos options) provide plenty of room for creativity in character creation and roleplay. In fact, there is more depth to RT PC's than any other FFG system, though that is just my opinion. Needing to bring in a Space Marine smacks of a lack of the above. Again, that's just me... and probably anyone I've ever played with. Hell, the RT in my last campaign was annoyed that someone wanted to be an Eldar.

Then again, I tend to play with people who dislike special snowflakes as much as I do.

Space Marines are - generally speaking - well-defined in terms of their role and outlook to life. They're either sacred upholders of their Chapters' traditions or fallen to Chaos with only a very, VERY few Chapters (I can only think of one off-hand) somewhere in the middle.

You can make a lot of endeavours where a Space Marine Chapter would ally with a Rogue Trader, and they could even stick around as part of a pact or can be called in, but I think while it is possible to do roleplaying as a Space Marine, it's roleplaying of a different flavour than most RT approaches. Far more interesting to build an Augment-obsessed Arch-Militant with delusions of becoming a Space Marine.

But... but... there's precedent!!

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1334/33/1334336150408.jpg

Ok, now I'm just being obnoxious.

In general I tend to agree. I think the basic RT careers cover all the bases well, I just don't think that a SM is super out of line. I am well and truly perplexed by the Dark Eldar career being an option as opposed to a Pathfinder or an old style Corsair. Of course once again that's because I know the people I game with and the ones who would want to roll a DE would inevitably end up as "slutty pain elf" and then I would have to punch them.

But... but... there's precedent!!

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1334/33/1334336150408.jpg

Ok, now I'm just being obnoxious.

In general I tend to agree. I think the basic RT careers cover all the bases well, I just don't think that a SM is super out of line. I am well and truly perplexed by the Dark Eldar career being an option as opposed to a Pathfinder or an old style Corsair. Of course once again that's because I know the people I game with and the ones who would want to roll a DE would inevitably end up as "slutty pain elf" and then I would have to punch them.

That's for **** sure. Part of the reason (among many) I am loathe to allow things like Dark Eldar, Orks and certainly Space Marines, is that, in the long run, players get annoyed at how restricted they are in roleplay/gameplay.

Example: A Space Marine would NOT be ok with the RT turning towards piracy or employing xenos weaponry - which many trend towards at some point.

That sort of thing is a game/mood killer. Thus, I play dad and just don't let people do it under most circumstances. It's just for their own good, they thank me later.

But... but... there's precedent!!

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1334/33/1334336150408.jpg

Ok, now I'm just being obnoxious.

In general I tend to agree. I think the basic RT careers cover all the bases well, I just don't think that a SM is super out of line. I am well and truly perplexed by the Dark Eldar career being an option as opposed to a Pathfinder or an old style Corsair. Of course once again that's because I know the people I game with and the ones who would want to roll a DE would inevitably end up as "slutty pain elf" and then I would have to punch them.

This.

I want to make it clear that I would in no way support playing Space Marines in my own games, I was merely rejecting the rationale used by some. I prefer my Rogue Trader games to be free of the "special cases"; so no orks, no dark eldar, no space marines, no kroot.

It just doesn't sit well with me, and as smaller parts of a larger whole, I wouldn't actually mind some of them terribly much, but with only 4-5 (6, absolutely tops) characters to make up a "bridge crew" or "away team", I don't think you can do the team or group justice in any capacity, if one or more of them are "taken up" by these aberrations, whether they are being played like "speshul snowflakes" or not.

And I want to add that I also think that it's weird as hell that Dark Eldar were the ones to get exposition in Rogue Trader and appear as a playable career/species. It makes no sense to me - I would think that Eldar Corsairs, Eldar Exodites or even Craftworld Eldar - as unlikely as the last would arguably be - would be more fitting than Dark Eldar.

Dark Eldar, with their fluff and nature, is very hard to "fit in". The only thing they arguably have got going for themselves is that they have suppressed their natural psychic potential, which means not having to deal with some considerable issues in relative power level between players, but.. I don't see that as argument enough.

I think if I were going to allow a Marine it would have to be one of those chapters with a.... flexible perspective on the universe.

I think a Space Wolf could work if you make them a WolfBlade who has been sent along with the navigator hired by the RT dynasty. It gives them a very specific charge and a fair amount of latitude to execute that duty as they see fit.

a Relictors Marine could be cool. "Suuuure Mr Rogue Trader, I'll tag along with you, why don't you let me hold onto that nifty daemon blade, for safe keeping of course."

The Marines Malevolent suggestion above is a good one. Now you're competing with the super violent psychopathic approved mutant for the phat loots, have fun.

A Black Templar on a super zealous Trader Militant ship could work. Faith and coin campaign where it's all about subjugating worlds through fire and sword.

Steal the Marines Errant fluff and paint it over a different Chapter and Dynasty.

Penitent detachment, also similar to the WolfBlade thing where Ragnar gets shipped off. Maybe the Marine screwed up somehow and his penance is to go hang around with the degenerate Rogue trader for a century or so.

I think my least favorite is the "Look I found a Space Marine floating around in space!!" option. IMO it makes it difficult to establish the ties that should be in place to have a Marine on board.

I think the thing to remember is, technically since the RT isn't bound by Imperial law outside the Imperium... The Marine doesn't actually have a lot of say over what happens on ship. You also have to make the assumption that any Chapter with ties to a Dynasty gets this and understands how things work, the flipside is you can bet Djanko Scourge or Fel aren't making any SM buddies anytime soon, the bonds and such kinda work both ways. (or should)

I do think if you're going to have SM's be aware that they should be a lot less open to the inevitable lies and misdirection Rogue Trader groups throw around to justify their actions.

Don't forget about the possibility of bringing some Blood Ravens along. They can spout some stuff about how they received a vision that this was where they need to be, but really they're there because they've noticed you tend to find the best swag on your missions, and they'd like the chance to get to it first.

For every Blood Raven Space Marine on board your vessel, reduce the amount of unique treasure gained on every mission by 1d5.

lol stuff just keeps going missing from the Rogue Traders vault and appearing on the Blood Raven's kit. He's like space Deebo, who's gonna call him out on it?

[...]

I think the thing to remember is, technically since the RT isn't bound by Imperial law outside the Imperium... The Marine doesn't actually have a lot of say over what happens on ship. You also have to make the assumption that any Chapter with ties to a Dynasty gets this and understands how things work, the flipside is you can bet Djanko Scourge or Fel aren't making any SM buddies anytime soon, the bonds and such kinda work both ways. (or should)

Indeed. Keep in mind that any Space Marine present is there due to some greater scheme, plan or agreement. If a Space Marine is given a charge, a mission, mandate or order by a superior - which he would have to be, to even be on the ship - he's going to fulfil it, no question about it, unless he's one of the very anarchic kind of marines.

I could for example see a Space Wolf having huge problems if you start to commit genocide against innocents, and Space Wolves aren't known to follow the rules, after all. But even so, you'd have to be a incredibly terrible person to make him forget his vows, or rationalize that he has other vows that supersedes his standing orders.

[...]

For every Blood Raven Space Marine on board your vessel, reduce the amount of unique treasure gained on every mission by 1d5.

I love it.

So let me get this straight, boys (and girls?), you've be arguing with me about something you wouldn't want in your own games?

So let me get this straight, boys (and girls?), you've be arguing with me about something you wouldn't want in your own games?

I think we've been arguing with each other. If you look at the first page of this thread there are some helpful ideas about... whatever it was this thread was originally meant to address.

So let me get this straight, boys (and girls?), you've be arguing with me about something you wouldn't want in your own games?

I don't think of it in those terms. When you say that "A Space Marine hanging out with a RT as a permanent part of the crew is absurd... no, retarded" or that "he can't be medically cared for [unless he's an apothecary]" or "... his equipment, [...] a pretty advanced Explorator would likely have little idea how to handle" , it rubs me the wrong way, because none of those things are actually true.

If you were just to say "Me and my group don't like Space Marines in our games, because they feel out-of-place or may upset the narrative dynamic of the group and/or doesn't mesh well with the way our adventures usually turn out and/or takes up valuable spots that should be filled by more relevant character concepts" , I don't think you would've gotten anyone arguing with you, because I know that a lot of people agree with that - it's the same reasons they don't allow other potential "special snowflake"-characters or characters that risk, in the context of the campaign setting we're talking about, turn into deeply atypical depictions of overreaching narrative aspects of the universe ( "My Ork speaks High Gothic" , or "My kroot has a cat named mittens" or "My Dark Eldar is a GOOD Dark Eldar, he only tortures people that enjoy it" ).

Instead of taking sides in what inevitably ends up in some kind of false dichotomy and an argument for the sake of arguing, I always try to stick to the subject(s). I don't think anyone was questioning what you perceived to be your overreaching stance (i.e. "I don't want Space Marines in my games because it feels stupid" ), but merely the rationale behind it that you put forth.

meh - 6 of one, half dozen of the other. My opinion is what was expressed. It is/feels absurd AND retarded to me. Of course, others can feel differently. End of the day, nobody here seems to have gone out on a limb and said "heck yeah, that's going to be in my next campaign... who wants to be a space marine?"

As for overreaching... maybe I did. I suppose that's an element of how I feel about the idea. In the interest of furthering discussion, I'll retract or at least back off some of my previous points.

With that said, who here WANTS someone to be a Space Marine in their RT campaign? Hell, who would even allow it if a player asked?

@fdgsfg: Whether you want to think about it in those terms or not is really up to you. To me, bottom line is what matters. Your rationale for not wanting a Space Marine in your campaign is almost secondary to the fact that you don't want one in your campaign. Whether its a cut reaction or a reasoned opinion with an articulable basis, the end position is what matters... to me anyway.

[...]

With that said, who here WANTS someone to be a Space Marine in their RT campaign? Hell, who would even allow it if a player asked?

I'd tell the player that I'd listen to his pitch, and if he can't rationalize it in a manner that pleases me, I'd flat-out just say no. The potential issues are too big and I don't want to do the extra work just to accommodate him if his only motivation is "I want to be a superhuman!" .

Just someone asking about being a Space Marine would set off little warning bells in me.

Just someone asking about being a Space Marine would set off little warning bells in me.

The prosecution rests.

I would allow it depending on the player and what their pitch was. If its just "herp derp ima speeehs mereen." Then, no they get to play a grot. As I said, off hand I can think of 4 or 5 people I'd allow it for out of the group I gamed with back home. Would I offer it up as a basic choice? Dunno, depends on the group and the tone of the game.

I like the idea potentially and don't think it's out of place, it's just very similar to playing a Paladin in a D&D game and playing lawful stupid, or playing a chaotic stupid character. A lot of the mileage you get out of it will depend on your players.

I got so much crap on the forum for making fun of the whole "good" Dark Eldar thing. :/ It sets me off in the same way a SM seems to for you Traejun.

End of the day, nobody here seems to have gone out on a limb and said "heck yeah, that's going to be in my next campaign... who wants to be a space marine?"

I did back on the first page. The group I play in has a space marine character and we're planning to add more. But then again, my character in that campaign is a Tau Void Master and the Rogue Trader is part Eldar, so a Space Marine is definintely not the wierdest of the bunch.

Personally, I view them the same way as other 'special snowflake' kind of characters , like Orks, Kroot and Dark Eldar: they certainly aren't the norm aboard a starship, and you must think carefully about what kind of game you're going to run and if they fit in.

I now want to play a DW campaign where we purge LordBlades ship. For the good of the Imperium of course.

my character in that campaign is a Tau Void Master and the Rogue Trader is part Eldar, so a Space Marine is definintely not the wierdest of the bunch.

Wut?

aaaaaaand Traejun's head just exploded lol

aaaaaaand Traejun's head just exploded lol

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/151463-1/Head_explodes.gif

Whenever one of my players wants to be speshul, I usually try to work out a less extreme solution for them.

One of them wanted to be an ork because they were big and dumb and his last 4 characters had been seneschals. I personally wasn't keen on the idea of an ork in my campaign, so we talked it out and decided to make him an Ogryn instead. It actually worked out fairly well.

I now want to play a DW campaign where we purge LordBlades ship. For the good of the Imperium of course.

Purging it is the easy part. The hard part is catching it There's so much archeotech crammed into our little Firestorm (mainly Archeotech drives and Energy Conversion Matrix) that the only ship we've not managed to outrun was an Eldar frigate.

my character in that campaign is a Tau Void Master and the Rogue Trader is part Eldar, so a Space Marine is definintely not the wierdest of the bunch.

Wut?

I give you my word it all seemed like a good idea at the time

The half Eldar Rogue Trader : this guy likes Eldar, and since the campaign had just started the GM was a bit reluctant to allow him to homebrew an Eldar race and class (based on the Dark Eldar), so he setteled for being a regular human (As regular as a Rogue Trader with Psychic Powers and the Flesh is Weak 3 that made it to be an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor can be) with the fluff of being half-Eldar (since there is at least one half-eldar mentioned in fluff, and I heard there's a mention somewhere of human/dark eldar hybrids in Comorragh).

The Tau void-master (my character) : I started with a Navigator that proved quite unsatisfying from a mechanic point of view. He was highly useful aboard a ship (long live Stacking the Deck and good quality Cortex Implant ) but outside it all he could do was set up save-or-die situations around corners with Liddless Stare, and that ended too once we discovered it had been errata-ed to a Full Action. Around that time, wile I was looking for a replacement char idea I got my hands on the new Tau codex so I went like 'it would be so nice if there actually were any stats for playing Tau, since there's plenty of gear and vehicles for them spread around the books'. He thinks for a bit and then tells me I could totally use the stats for a regular human and call it a Tau, since they aren't that different. And so was the Air Caste Tau Void Master born Meanwhile we've found some homebrew Tau racial stats and bonuses, and we've reverse engineered the battlesuits from Deathwatch Mark of the Xenos statblocks.

The Space Marine: He started play as an Ork Weirdboy, which he played very orky. Was fun while it lasted, but he ended up almost killing the arch-militant (she had to burn a FP to live) when a Powa'Burst went wrong, so he ended up getting turned over to the Inquisition. He came back with a pre-Heresy Dark Angel that had been trapped inside his ship now turned into a daemon engine for the past 10 millenia.

I'm glad you are enjoying yourself, mate, but that sounds like pretty much my worst nightmare as a GM. Far too many special snowflakes for my taste. Characters should be unique and interesting, but if you need to go so far as to have an RT ship with more xeno and space marine than normal humans to make it fun, everyone should take a step back and think about what they are doing and why they are playing RT.

I'm glad you are enjoying yourself, mate, but that sounds like pretty much my worst nightmare as a GM. Far too many special snowflakes for my taste. Characters should be unique and interesting, but if you need to go so far as to have an RT ship with more xeno and space marine than normal humans to make it fun, everyone should take a step back and think about what they are doing and why they are playing RT.

At the most basic level, it might just be 'playing RT to have a ship and explore the 40k universe'. I see nothing wrong with that. Each player came up with the story they wanted, each of them valid and plausible by 40k fluff and we found in character reasons for the party to be working together.

Honestly, I don't feel there's a 'right' and 'wrong' way in playing a RPG, as long as everyone is having fun.