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I kinda like these images, not sure where they first came from. or if they're official. But I go by them when envisioning as Astartes from what I've read

Edit: And why is "GM fiat" used in what reads like a pejorative, nearly vitriolic sense? There is nothing wrong with GM fiat. Without GM fiat, the situation of playable Space Marines in a Rogue Trader game can't even happen. It stands to reason that in order to facilitate a good game, there should be a liberal application of "GM fiat". There's nothing wrong with that. It's what GM:s are for, after all. /Edit

GM Fiat is used in the sense that it is being used to put arbitrary restrictions on players' in-character behaviour and liberties. That is, the GM's interpretation on how certain characters can and cannot act is being used as some sort of balancing act for overpowered Space Marines. In other words, bad GMing.

Mechanically Magellan is right. Astartes only count as Hulking when in their power armor. Which I agree seems silly, but them's the RAW.

I agree a 7-8 foot slab of meat wandering around isn't exactly inconspicuous but, it's 40k, with space elves and such, who's to say what "weird" is on any given planet.

What? According to what, where? Because I double-checked Black Crusade just to make sure, and I'm sure that they were Hulking in size in Deathwatch.

That said, even if what you are saying is true (which would be weird as hell; I feel like I'm in some kind of parallel universe where things don't make sense and the ignorant are ganging up on me... nevermind, that's the regular universe) it still wouldn't change the fact that there's no way a Space Marine, as described, could pass as human.

So how are they any more different than any other mutant character with the Brute mutation in Rogue Trader? Just call the Space Marine your mutated, moronic manservant if nothing else. Or just, yannow, use the Disguise skill to help pass him off as a tall human.

In all fairness... The OP question was how to do it, not why he shouldn't.

The "If you want to play a SM then don't play RT" response is just flippant and non helpful either.

I'll fully grant that what I have said is my interpretation of the lore, but I challenge you to find me ANY piece of GW fluff that depicts an Astartes forgoing his Bolter and/or Armour for standard human Imperial kit. I can see maybe doing it for the example you gave for BC but lets be real, that kind of situation for a loyalist Astartes.... preeeeeety rare, even if they are running around with a Rogue Trader. Let's leave the absurd minis from the RT era out of the discussion for now because... that stuff is all over the **** place.

I cant think of one case where that happens off the top of my head, even if it's a one off case (I'll fully grant I may be forgetting stuff so please point it out if I am.) Assuming that an Astartes on a RT ship would just abandon his gear because he can now make acquisition tests mechanically is just silly from everything that literally every piece of fluff written tells us about a Space Marine and their reverence to their gear. The Kill Marine entry is pretty much the only place I can think that even mentions something like that.

I guess what it comes down to for me is.

1 - Mechanically the 40kRPG characters are largely a product of their kit, limiting that selection to what (imo) fits within the fluff of the universe is one way of making sure a Space Marine isn't ridiculously OP all the time.

2 - As mentioned above, the DW skill costs are roughly double-ish of the costs in RT, meaning the RT characters will be leveling roughly twice as fast, combined with the above, this also mitigates the power gap.

3 - In the scope of a game where you can literally drop a CHURCH on your enemies, or call in regiment upon regiment of soldiers, or artillery or air support etc... Does one Space Marine really make that much of a difference to the "balance" of a game?

4 - And I grant this one is 110% my personal opinion. I don't feel like Space Marines feel like Space Marines unless you have something different to contrast them to. It works perfectly fine in BC, and it feels reasonable. The squishies in BC at start aren't that far off from RT characters when it comes down to it.

I'm not saying a SM should always be an option for a RT game, but in my mind they don't present any more mechanical problems than the Ork does, seeing as he can be a better Captain than the RT and a better mechanic than the Explorator.

First of all, saying "I can't see any fluff where they took off their armor!" is not a compelling argument for arbitrarily preventing players from using different kinds of gear. I've seen no fluff of a Techpriest making use of a Eldar Starcannon stapled to his Leman Russ. Should I then stop the Explorator from such an act? I've also seen no fluff for a Rogue Trader in power armour, should I then stop the RT from using a suit?

Not the same argument at all? How so? Arbitrary restrictions placed upon player behaviour as a result of my interpretation of the fluff. Now, as for your points...

1. See above.

2. I have not done the math for this, so I will conceede this point.

3. Again, the debate has never been about the Space Marine being overpowered against the NPCs. Never. He's overpowered compared to the rest of his party. Anything an Arch Militant can do, a Space Marine can do better.

4. Contrast is all fine and dandy, but it'd kinda suck to the rest of the party when they're stuck being completely redundant in combat... and then suck for the Space Marine when he's completely useless the rest of the time.

Pg 249 of the DW core book - Hulking = Armoured SM or Ork Nob, there is no entry for an unarmoured SM. Same chart pg 142 in BC, also no mention of unarmoured SM. So I guess... flip a coin?

1 - Don't start with the BS of permissive rules vs non permissive rules, that's pedantic at best and a strawman argument at worst. If all you care about is the crunch then why bother using the 40k setting at all, just use the rules to play Star Wars, or Cthulhu or Pathfinder.

2 - Me either, my suggestion is at a cursory glance, but I suspect it holds up. Im willing to admit I could be completely wrong though if somoene else wants to do the crunch.

3 - What NPC's? By squishies I meant regular human PC's. The BC Characters are not far off from RT characters at rank 1. Now I'll grant the DW Marine is flat out better than the BC Marine, so maybe the solution is use the BC rules and let them have access to the Acquisition rules like any other crew member.

4 - I still argue that if the GM puts any thought into their game at all (otherwise why are they there) then this is a complete non issue.

If we want to play the RAW game...

Pg 34 DW Core Rulebook flat out tells you to figure it out. Space Marines don't get Gelt or Profit Factor or Influence, full stop.

Sadly Black Crusade doesn't seem to say anything about acquiring gear in the crossover rules pages, seems like it ought to. :/

All of this kinda makes me want to model up an Astartes who has wholly embraced the RT lifestile, complete with a resplendant hat and fuzzy boots and all.

As an aside, after reading the OP again I suspect this was just a forum grenade. Ah well I like debating stuff like this anyhow.

Er... in a game where you can drop literally REGIMENTS of troops on a world/problem etc... one SM really isn't that big of a deal in terms of power creep. Honestly an Astartes causes more problems than he solves for a RT, depending on the flavour of the Lord Captain.

There are plenty of fluff reasons for one to be on a RT ship, everything from oath to a RT dynasty, to being on the run, or even full on heretic etc. That's easy.

The problem is more along the lines of pretty much every single party member being rendered useless in combat because, well.. the Space Marine is just that much better than them. What do you fancy the Arch Militant doing, for example?

You've mentioned several times in this thread how space marinesrender RT characters irrelevant in combat, but you have yet to provide any arguments to support this statement. Frankly, I think it's false.

Consider at the top of their power curve, a ranged Space Marine (tactical or devastator) vs. an Arch Militant:

The marine has on average +5 more BS, for which he paid a ton more. Full BS advancement costs 1600 XP for the Arch-Militant, and 3200 for the Devastator (but the devastator gets a strictly inferior class ability to both he Arch-Miltiant and the tactical, +10 BS in cover vs. +10 BS/+2 damage all the time) and 5000 XP for the Tactical.

The marine has, in theory better weapons. While DW weapons do have more damage than their RT counterparts, there's nothing stopping an Arch-Militant from picking up a couple Xeno weapons from DW with Exotic Weapon Training to even the odds (Tau weaponry is particularly effective).

Defensively, the Marine has better armor (artificer armor vs. best-craftsmanship power armor provides 3 more AP everywhere) and unnatural toughness (providing most likely between 4 and 7 extra damage reduction, depending on toughness advancements, which are again expensive as hell for Astartes, 5000 XP for both Tactical and Devastator).

On the other hand, the Arch-Militant has easy access to Augmenticist, for Machine 3 to reduce armor disparity, as well as being much more adept at dodging. The Arch-Mlitant gets Dodge/+10/+20 at ranks 1/2/3 and Step Aside at rank 7. The Space Marine gets Dodge at rank 1/5/8 (or all at 4 if you spend 4000 XP on Deathwatch Champion) and can never get Step Aside.

Sorry, but at most I see a Space Marine marginally better than an Arch Miltiant, and he has to spend a ton more XP to aheve that, which means the Arch-Militant will be ahead for a significant amount of the time (Takes him less xp to reach full potential).

What he said. MATH HAMMER!!!

I'm glad someone did it, I'm too lazy.

What he said. MATH HAMMER!!!

I'm glad someone did it, I'm too lazy.

Ditto!

BTW: For those who keep comparing a DW marine to a BC Marine; You're comparing apples and oranges! A DW marine is a veteran marine similar to a Sternguard, Vanguard or even a first company Termie! The BC Marine is more in line with a "Standard" legionnaire or Marine. Even in TT the two things are VERY different!

As a side note: I'm curious, since I've never seen one in play (only Weirdboyz), how does Space Marine compare to an Ork Freebooter?

Orks only get UnTough from the start so they aren't as nasty to start out but they are plenty killy. The problem with them is later on, as I mentioned, if the player puts xp in the right places they can outshine both the RT in Command and the Explorator in Tech Use at the same time. It got a bit disconcerting in the last game I was in that had an Ork explorer. They can get UnStr later on, rank... 4 ish if I remember right off hand. I've only been in that one game with an Ork though so others experiences may differ.

But again, what human crew will really follow ork orders? I would put a penalty of -20 or worse (maybe even a -60) on Cmd tests made by an Ork over a human crew.

But again, what human crew will really follow ork orders? I would put a penalty of -20 or worse (maybe even a -60) on Cmd tests made by an Ork over a human crew.

Well, Ork Command is not actually command, it's Intimidate

Might Makes Right allows Orks to use Intimidate as Command on other greenskins, while Lissen Ta Me, Cos I'z Da Biggest allows him to do the same to allies of any race.

I can totally see the crew fearing the big bad ork aboard their ship so much they do exactly as he says.

It seems we touched a sensitive topic in this discussion on space marines. lol
Topic has 2 full pages in what, 2-3 days?

I see people love and hate the idea. hehe

So, just continuing the flame wars....
What chapter of Marine would have a smaller chance of shooting the RT right away once he sees the Sanctioned Xenos on-board? Or of even willingly assisting the RT on his work after getting rescued from a hulk or something like that.

Space Wolves?

But again, what human crew will really follow ork orders? I would put a penalty of -20 or worse (maybe even a -60) on Cmd tests made by an Ork over a human crew.

Well, Ork Command is not actually command, it's Intimidate

Might Makes Right allows Orks to use Intimidate as Command on other greenskins, while Lissen Ta Me, Cos I'z Da Biggest allows him to do the same to allies of any race.

I can totally see the crew fearing the big bad ork aboard their ship so much they do exactly as he says.

Yep, this was the problem, and with Intimidate based on Strength... it scales very quickly. It got pretty silly, as a group we decided that we weren't going to allow the Ork to command troops in battle, we made him the morale officer on ship instead.

@Sebastian Yorke - I think a chapter with a similar arrangement to the Marines Errant is the way I'd go. Either that or a marine that has a specific oath or debt to the Dynasty. As for established chapters... I think you could make up anything that works really, it sort of depends on what kind of game you want to run. If you've got a super crusadey Trader Militant even a Black Templar could work.

At the end of the day, unless the person playing the SM is being jackhole they aren't going to shoot the RT any more than the Missionary would, if that's the case, that's the player you DON'T let play a Marine.

It seems we touched a sensitive topic in this discussion on space marines. lol

Topic has 2 full pages in what, 2-3 days?

I see people love and hate the idea. hehe

So, just continuing the flame wars....

What chapter of Marine would have a smaller chance of shooting the RT right away once he sees the Sanctioned Xenos on-board? Or of even willingly assisting the RT on his work after getting rescued from a hulk or something like that.

Space Wolves?

If the Xenos is Sanctioned, I don't think *most* Space Marines would attack it - although they would no doubt not like the presence of said xenos.

Space Marines have had alliances of convenience with xenos (xenoses? xeni?) at several occasions, after all. That Sanctioned Eldar or the Sanctioned Ork or the Sanctioned Kroot shouldn't pose that much of an issue, on average, honestly.

The dude over there with three arms and the daemon-weapon of the arch-militant or the missionary's blood-centric worship of the Emperor is probably more likely to cause problems...

[...] we made him the morale officer on ship instead.

[...]

"The beatings will continue until morale improves" ?

What chapter of Marine would have a smaller chance of shooting the RT right away once he sees the Sanctioned Xenos on-board?

Marines Malevolent. As long as the Rogue Trader continues to fund their campaigns I could see them be willing to loan one or two members to a Dynasty provided the compensatory gear provided more than made up for their absence.

That would be fun. I can see a sanctioned Ork pulling the RT aside to speak with him, slightly concerned about the level of violence the Marine Malevolent brings to the crew...

First off... let me reiterate my original point: A Space Marine hanging out with a RT as a permanent part of the crew is absurd... no, retarded. It would be an absolute destruction of any semblance of a balance. Not to mention that unless the SM in question is an apothecary, he can't be medically cared for. As for his equipment, even a pretty advanced Explorator would likely have little idea how to handle Astartes equipment.

That said, the ONLY way to reduce this idea from retarded back to just absurd is to have the SM in question be the last of a dead chapter. Maybe the crew finds one of the 4 (maybe) surviving members of the Soul Drinkers. Chapters in similar situations could also work. Essentially, the SM knows the chapter is basically dead and sees this as the only legitimate way to continue to serve the Emperor - aboard one of his Rogue Trader vessels.

Again... lets be clear: this is a terrible idea.

It would be an absolute destruction of any semblance of a balance.

And yet nobody in this thread has been able to produce any arguments for this.

First off... let me reiterate my original point: A Space Marine hanging out with a RT as a permanent part of the crew is absurd... no, retarded. It would be an absolute destruction of any semblance of a balance. Not to mention that unless the SM in question is an apothecary, he can't be medically cared for. As for his equipment, even a pretty advanced Explorator would likely have little idea how to handle Astartes equipment.

That said, the ONLY way to reduce this idea from retarded back to just absurd is to have the SM in question be the last of a dead chapter. Maybe the crew finds one of the 4 (maybe) surviving members of the Soul Drinkers. Chapters in similar situations could also work. Essentially, the SM knows the chapter is basically dead and sees this as the only legitimate way to continue to serve the Emperor - aboard one of his Rogue Trader vessels.

Again... lets be clear: this is a terrible idea.

Aside from the potential balance issues, which has, again, proven to be minor - almost non-existent depending on how you spin it or resolve it - fluffwise, there isn't anything strange about it at all.

Well, alright, it's arguably not the norm, for sure. But it's not beyond the realm of the believable. There's a multitude of ways this could happen, and none of them are stranger than those leading to any of the other individuals within a Rogue Trader's retinue getting to that point in their lives. Hell, there's not even anything specifically preventing a Space Marine from being the Rogue Trader.

As for the issues you raise; why would he not be able to be medically cared for, aside from considerable damage to some some of his extra organs, there is nothing overly exotic about Space Marines. While it would no doubt be a challenge for a medical professional to treat him, it would really not be stranger than working with xenos organs, or any of the bodies of exotic animals or what-have-you.

This goes double for Explorators and Astartes equipment. While some of the more ignorant tech-priests would have problems, that is more an issue with their experience than anything special about Astartes equipment. For example, why would a "civilian" Power Armour be in any way truly different from a Space Marine Power Armour? While there *are* differences, these differences aren't so wildly exotic as to render the knowledge and experiences of a seasoned Explorator moot.

There are examples of Space Marines serving aboard Rogue Trader ships for a multitude of reasons - a "Dead Chapter" rationale is only potential route to take, although that route would feel exceedingly odd to me, considering that in the scenario you present, I would imagine that the Space Marines in question would be more interested in rebuilding their chapter or seek out upper-echelon Imperial representatives for immediate debriefing; especially since they'd have nothing tying them to the service of said Rogue Trader.

First off... let me reiterate my original point: A Space Marine hanging out with a RT as a permanent part of the crew is absurd... no, retarded. It would be an absolute destruction of any semblance of a balance. Not to mention that unless the SM in question is an apothecary, he can't be medically cared for. As for his equipment, even a pretty advanced Explorator would likely have little idea how to handle Astartes equipment.

That said, the ONLY way to reduce this idea from retarded back to just absurd is to have the SM in question be the last of a dead chapter. Maybe the crew finds one of the 4 (maybe) surviving members of the Soul Drinkers. Chapters in similar situations could also work. Essentially, the SM knows the chapter is basically dead and sees this as the only legitimate way to continue to serve the Emperor - aboard one of his Rogue Trader vessels.

Again... lets be clear: this is a terrible idea.

Except that fluff wise, the Marines Errant chapter says you are completely wrong.

As does the concept of WolfBlades who are seconded to a Navigator house, same concept, different kind of location.

As does the original Rogue Trader fluff where there were literally HUNDREDS of marines attached to Rogue Trader vessels indefinitely.

As does the DW core ruleboook that explains that each Marine is responsible for the maintenance of his Armour and kit.

I don't think anyone is saying that a Space Marine should be a standard as part of a Rogue Trader crew, at all. But as far as it being a rare occurance.... Really not much more rare than an Ork or a Dark Eldar if you think about it.

From a RP standpoint I do think a Space Marine is potentially more of a liability than he would be a benefit, all of that depends on the person playing the Marine though, as well as the rest of the group.

Mechanics wise the "imbalance" is negligible.

Fluff wise it's an established event.

Once again the OP question (if it wasnt just a forum grenade) was, How?

Space Marine are attached for a purpose, at no point are they simple "part of the crew" - which is what PC's are in RT campaigns. There is no mention of a specific amount of time the Space Marine(s) would be with the RT, simply that it was not permanent.

If you can find me an instance when a single Space Marine joins the crew of a RT vessel, I will stand corrected. Until then, this is nothing more than a particular player trying to be a special snowflake.

If you want to play a Space Marine, play Deathwatch or Black Crusade. If you want to mix in some Space Marine type stuff, just combine a DW and RT campaign for a some specific endeavor. Permanently, no...

[...]

From a RP standpoint I do think a Space Marine is potentially more of a liability than he would be a benefit, all of that depends on the person playing the Marine though, as well as the rest of the group.

[...]

I have yet to see a free-form group (I've never been in a group that plays through the prefab adventures.. ) that doesn't swiftly degenerate into mass-murder, piracy, wanton heresy, or utter bible-thumping.

While there are instances where a Space Marine wouldn't be a problem (such as the Space Marine in question being the holder of the Warrant, i.e. the Rogue Trader), I agree with the sentiment that more often than not, a Space Marine could be a huge liability.

I'm sure it comes with some considerable advantages, as well (such as the Rogue Trader just having a Space Marine around his persona during negotiations or public events), but honestly, the Space Marine losing it as your Explorator is plying a necron skull off it's disabled husk is a far more likely event.

Imagine having a Black Templar next to you. All. The. Time. Or a Salamander present as you bombard the colony of a rival rogue trader. A space marine on the ship has the potential to be severely restrictive, if RP:d correctly.

Space Marine are attached for a purpose, at no point are they simple "part of the crew" - which is what PC's are in RT campaigns. There is no mention of a specific amount of time the Space Marine(s) would be with the RT, simply that it was not permanent.

[...]

Untrue. A Rogue Trader could easily have an agreement with an Adeptus Astartes Chapter, resulting in him having a Space Marine (or several) "on loan", in an indefinite capacity.

Seriously, just read the rulebooks already. Like have already been mentioned to you repeatedly, this is nothing special, and CaptainStabby even mentioned several concrete examples.

@Traejun - Go read Honour the Chapter.

"During the years of 390.M38 through 433.M38, the Marines Errant Chapter sealed a covenant with the Rogue TraderHouse of Ecale. The reason for this agreement remains a secret tightly held by both parties. However, it remains clear that the ties formed at that time remain in place. To this day, there are always Battle-Brothers of the Marines Errant Chapter operating on detached service among the vessels of House Ecale. It may be that whatever task they agreed to at that time has not yet been completed. However, it might also be that the Chapter owes the bloodline some debt that cannot be repaid within a single lifetime. Service among House Ecale is regarded as an honour by members of the Chapter. Those who serve continue to wear the Rogue Trader’s badge on their armour long after they return to the Chapter. Many also bear highly ornate Power Armour or armaments that they have received as gifts from the House."

@Fgdsfg - I think those interactions are potentially what makes it interesting, but yeah, no Black Templars, just... yeah, no.

Again, none of those examples are permanent, they are just temporary. And in the example above, it's members... not one lonely space marine.

Either way, if a player insists on wanting this, and the GM is ok with it, cool. Go for it. Not in my campaigns, but as we can see, there are plenty of campaigns one could do this in.

On a side note, I see the insistence on being able to play a space marine as a total lack of creativity. As they tend to be the most visible/well-known thing among 40K fans, it just smack of a lack of ability to roleplay. And lets not even get started on how the space marine would really act around around/towards anyone that isn't the RT.

Temporary in the 40k universe could literally be decades if not hundreds of years and that's just taking into account warp travel shenanigans... That's more than enough game time to cover most campaigns.

As I said, I don't think it should be a basic option by any means, and of all of the people I have gamed with in the past 30 years I can only think of a handful that I would allow to do it, but that's not because of any game imbalance or it not fitting in the fluff, it's because I don't trust most people to not be complete muppets. It's the same reason I am so leery of the Dark Eldar career and the Reaver alt path. Space Marines are hard to play in general, but I could make the same argument about any of the Cult Marine options in BC as well, I mean really there isn't a lot of depth to a Khorne Berzerker.

I agree 100% that there are supply and maintenance issues that would need to be resolved through RP somehow, as well as all the other obvious stuff that has been mentioned. All of the RP possibilities are what makes it interesting to me.

Of course the Squats still exist when I run games so...

So, you wouldn't let me play a Half-Eldar Space Marine Librarian in your game Traejun? /sadface

Again, none of those examples are permanent, they are just temporary. And in the example above, it's members... not one lonely space marine.

Either way, if a player insists on wanting this, and the GM is ok with it, cool. Go for it. Not in my campaigns, but as we can see, there are plenty of campaigns one could do this in.

On a side note, I see the insistence on being able to play a space marine as a total lack of creativity. As they tend to be the most visible/well-known thing among 40K fans, it just smack of a lack of ability to roleplay. And lets not even get started on how the space marine would really act around around/towards anyone that isn't the RT.

Uh, I have no idea what your demands are to consider it "permanent"; I would consider an agreement between a Rogue Trader and a Chapter to be pretty darn well "permanent".

As for wanting to be a Space Marine being "a lack of ability to roleplay" and a "lack of creativity" just because the Space Marines is one of the most well-known things among 40k fans.. seriously? If anyone seems to be lacking the ability to roleplay, it's you, for not even being capable of envisioning the multitude of ways that this situation may come about.

It's only a lack of roleplaying ability or creativity if you are incapable of creating a character as it's own character; a Space Marine is no more "just another Space Marine" than a guardsman is "just another imperial guardsman".

I shudder to ask, but in your mind, how would a space marine really act "around/towards anyone that isn't the RT.

"? I fear for the answer, but I just have to ask.