Hi everyone,

As we all know, there are problems with combining all the Adventure Cards. Here are the three I've identified.

1. Balance

Ideally a game of Talisman shouldn't need more than 104 cards, because the base game worked well with this amount. You should be able to mix all the expansions thoroughly, choose any 104 Adventure Cards and have it work - without the use of corner expansions. If you feel that, after mixing, you need more than 104 cards to make the game work... it implies expansions are not balanced and they drag out the game.

An well-balanced deck requires a certain percentage of "essential" cards, which are those that increase Strength and Craft. The entire point of drawing Adventure Cards is to somehow increase your Strength or Craft so you can pass the Crypt or Mines. Everything else is "filler." Fun filler, exciting filler - but filler. As an example, the Solomon's Crown (+2 Craft, base game) is a "necessary" card. The Gilded Compass (-1 movement, Sacred Pool) helps your movement. It's a nice card, but it's ultimately filler, because if every card were like it, you wouldn't pass the Crypt or Mines. Bottom line is that you need Enemies to fight, and Objects and Followers that increase Strength or Craft.

My opinion is that The Reaper is well-balanced, the Blood Moon is okay, but the Frostmarch and Sacred Pool have a lot of filler compared to the base game.

2. Versatility

Ideally, the expansions should be versatile: every component should be optional and independent. With The Reaper expansion, you can use the Adventure Cards, the characters, Warlock Quests, and the Grim Reaper all independently of each other. With Frostmarch, Sacred Pool, and especially Blood Moon, the Adventure Cards, Alternative Endings, Spells, and some characters require the use of the included variants (e.g. Warlock Quests, Time Card, Werewolf).

So, unless you surgically remove specific cards, then you're forced to play with all variants. And by the time you want to play with those variants, you'll have to insert those cards back into your giant deck but then you're unlikely to even see them. As an example, almost all Spells work without any variants... until the Blood Moon happened. If you introduce the game to new players or didn't feel like using the Werewolf or Time Card, you could combine almost all the Spells (except Path of Destiny from Frostmarch) from base up to Sacred Pool with no problems. But when you felt like playing with the Werewolf finally, you'd shuffle a "whopping" 10 cards into your Spell deck of about 100. Good luck ever coming across one. And this is the Spell deck, which was pretty good up to Blood Moon. The Adventure Deck is obviously worse. So clearly, except with The Reaper, we're expected to use the expansion in it's entirety.

3. Theme

Mixing everything dilutes the theme of one particular expansion. It's not a gameplay problem, though.

Suggestion

Here's one suggestion that we find works well. Unfortunately, you need to start by separating all the cards, characters, endings, and everything back into the original boxes they came in.

Step 1: Choose your "theme." Roll 1 die. The result is your theme!

1 - Base Game

2 - The Reaper

3 - The Frostmarch

4 - The Sacred Pool

5 - The Blood Moon

6 - The Dragon

Use everything related to this expansion, including Adventure Cards. Mix the expansion Adventure Cards with the base game Adventure Cards. If you use The Dragon, use only the base game Adventure Cards.

Step 2: Choose your supporting expansions. Include everything from these expansions, except Adventure Cards. We like to randomize this too by rolling a die for each expansion. On a 1-3, the expansion and all its components are not used; on a roll of 4-6, it is used. This allows us to have many different combinations of rules variants. It also provides some control over the size of the Spell deck, which allows games with thematic spells (e.g. Blood Moon) to occur with more frequency.

- The Reaper: Use the characters, spells, Warlock Quests, and Grim Reaper.

- The Frostmarch: Use the characters, spells, Warlock Quests, and alternate endings.

- The Sacred Pool: Use the characters, spells, Quest Rewards, Stables, and alternate endings.

- The Blood Moon: Use the characters, spells, Time Card, Lycanthrope Cards, Werewolf, and alternate endings.

- Corner Expansions: Use the characters, spells, and everything else. Mix the alternate endings (including those from The Dragon if you are using it) with all the other alternate endings you chose. Use the Adventure Cards too.

This approach controls theme and balance at the same time by focusing only on one expansion's deck of Adventure Cards (potentially unbalanced) and adding the base deck (balanced). And It handles rules by ensuring no card is drawn which can't be supported if a required component is not in play (since you use the expansions as a whole). And no house rules or modifications are needed.

Anyway, sorry for being wordy but that's my suggestion! I'd like to hear yours!

Q:

As we all know, there are problems with combining all the Adventure Cards.

R:

That is not true. Many people like the combination.

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Q:

Ideally a game of Talisman shouldn't need more than 104 cards

R:

It's not a matter of need but want. I want and like more cards in general.

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Q:

If you NEED more than 104 cards, it implies expansions are not balanced and they drag out the game.

R:

Once again its not a need, but a want. Its not about balance some people desire a game that doesn't put out the same content. with a huge deck its possible to play many games and see different game play! And talisman is not about balance, although 4th Edition put more of it in the game. The Horrible Black Void throws your balance out the window.

And while sometimes people may want a long game! But I have seen games be short with all expansions in play. In fact this is why I do not like the Highlands, I have seen games end quickly with it.

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Q:

An appropriate deck requires a certain percentage of "necessary" cards, which are those that increase Strength and Craft.

R: I wouldn't use the words appropriate or necessary because of the desire for different game play. But I do agree that should be a certain amount/percentage of enemies to fight.

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Q:

...the Blood Moon is okay...

R:

My copy is on the way. I do not like the werewolf nor the day/nite feature. I plan on using the cards that do not need these features. I think this will put a higher percentage of creatures in the deck for me.

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Q:

With Frostmarch, Sacred Pool, and especially Blood Moon, the Adventure Cards, Alternative Endings, Spells, and some characters require the use of the included variants (e.g. Warlock Quests, Time Card, Werewolf).

R:

I do not see this with Frostmarch. Am I missing something?

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Q:

But when you felt like playing with the Werewolf finally, you'd shuffle a "whopping" 10 cards into your Spell deck of about 100.

R:

I do not want to play with the werewolf but I disagree, so many of our games the spell deck gets burned.

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Q:

The Adventure Deck is obviously worse.

R:

True, but for many of us that's a great thing, as I shared above!

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Q:

Mixing everything dilutes the theme of one particular expansion. It's not a gameplay problem, though.

R:

I agree, but I am not sure how much I would like a gothic spooky feel all the time with the Blood Moon except maybe during a Halloween game session.

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I think its cool you came up with a randomization to play which expansions. But it doesn't fix a problem, when many of us don't see the problem. But for those that do like a more predictable game it would prove to be more helpful.

Yes sorry if my terminology sounded harsh! I was just trying to be concise.

Yes sorry if my terminology sounded harsh! I was just trying to be concise.

I wouldn't say you were harsh, we got to remember people like playing talisman different ways. Some don't think its broken and doesn't need to be fixed. Although I am tweeking my set as well, but only in a small way. I really love the idea of Highlands, but I have seen it abused to win the game too often for my taste. So I won't be playing it in my home sessions.

You provided an interesting analysis. Some of your points were "concise" as DomaGB already noticed, but interesting to read anyway.

1. Balance
Ideally a game of Talisman shouldn't need more than 104 cards, because the base game worked well with this amount. You should be able to mix all the expansions thoroughly, choose any 104 Adventure Cards and have it work - without the use of corner expansions. If you feel that, after mixing, you need more than 104 cards to make the game work... it implies expansions are not balanced and they drag out the game.

An well-balanced deck requires a certain percentage of "essential" cards, which are those that increase Strength and Craft. The entire point of drawing Adventure Cards is to somehow increase your Strength or Craft so you can pass the Crypt or Mines. Everything else is "filler." Fun filler, exciting filler - but filler. As an example, the Solomon's Crown (+2 Craft, base game) is a "necessary" card. The Gilded Compass (-1 movement, Sacred Pool) helps your movement. It's a nice card, but it's ultimately filler, because if every card were like it, you wouldn't pass the Crypt or Mines. Bottom line is that you need Enemies to fight, and Objects and Followers that increase Strength or Craft.

My opinion is that The Reaper is well-balanced, the Blood Moon is okay, but the Frostmarch and Sacred Pool have a lot of filler compared to the base game.

The concept of balance is very relative in Talisman. Depending on the game, the same deck can give unbalanced or balanced situations, no matter how it is formed. I agree that some expansions stretch different aspects of the game so considering their Adventure cards as a single deck-entity would show some general imbalance. In the mix, this can give you different "feel", but no unbalancing at all. And filler elements are part of balance as well.

A game like this is dragged by the players, their luck and their attitudes, not by the decks.

And the game with 104 cards doesn not necessary "work well". If the deck is depleted and needs to be reformed before the game is finished, I'm not so sure it works fine.

2. Versatility
Ideally, the expansions should be versatile: every component should be optional and independent. With The Reaper expansion, you can use the Adventure Cards, the characters, Warlock Quests, and the Grim Reaper all independently of each other. With Frostmarch, Sacred Pool, and especially Blood Moon, the Adventure Cards, Alternative Endings, Spells, and some characters require the use of the included variants (e.g. Warlock Quests, Time Card, Werewolf).

So, unless you surgically remove specific cards, then you're forced to play with all variants. And by the time you want to play with those variants, you'll have to insert those cards back into your giant deck but then you're unlikely to even see them. As an example, almost all Spells work without any variants... until the Blood Moon happened. If you introduce the game to new players or didn't feel like using the Werewolf or Time Card, you could combine almost all the Spells (except Path of Destiny from Frostmarch) from base up to Sacred Pool with no problems. But when you felt like playing with the Werewolf finally, you'd shuffle a "whopping" 10 cards into your Spell deck of about 100. Good luck ever coming across one. And this is the Spell deck, which was pretty good up to Blood Moon. The Adventure Deck is obviously worse. So clearly, except with The Reaper, we're expected to use the expansion in it's entirety.

Versatily is important and it has been put aside since Sacred Pool, when the first interdependent game additions were proposed. This was done for variety's sake; if you don't want to play with all elements, then you need to remove whole portions of the expansion.

You have to consider that expansions need to do something against a problem which you don't consider, which is dilution. Dilution of cards into huge decks, making the single cards irrelevant in the balance and new mechanics impossible to apply consistently. The Time Card was a nice addition that influences the entire game without requiring you to tweak the decks. The same did not happen for Blood Moon Spell cards, as you mentioned.

3. Theme
Mixing everything dilutes the theme of one particular expansion. It's not a gameplay problem, though.

It's not, but theme has a meaning in Talisman. Having Ice Queen and gothic horror in the same game makes you feel "mixed".

Your suggestions are valid.

Personally I reform the Adventure Deck once every X games, adding base game cards (always needed, as they are the base game) and two Adventure Card expansions at a time.

If I play with Blood Moon, I throw everything in. If not, I separate Blood Moon Spells from the deck and don't use Werewolf Chart, Time card and Lycanthrope cards.

If I don't use components from Sacred Pool, I don't use the Stables deck.

Dragon expansion is a stand-alone and cannot be thrown in the mix. It's used when you want a special game; I also don't use Dragon Rider and Dragon Priestess as standard characters, becaus I think they're sub-par in a game without Dragon cards.

With those simple expedients, I play with all components and don't have problems of balance or dilution.