Examining the d100

By Nimsim, in Dark Heresy Second Edition Beta

How does the d100 system work?

At it's heart, the d100 system works on the idea of telling the player exactly what his percent chance of accomplishing a task is. You are given a binary success/fail with a 1-100% chance of success (or 1-95%). The Dark Heresy system elaborates on this by including an additional mechanic in degrees of success, which dictate how WELL you succeed or how BADLY you fail. These results are sometimes binary (e.g. on 3+ DoS, gain X; on 2+ DoF, inflict X damage to yourself), sometimes scaling (e.g. increase damage by 1 per DoS), and sometimes left to GM interpretation, depending on what you're trying to do. As I type that out, I feel like the system could seriously do with some consolidation for Degrees of Success and Failure, and what they mean. Maybe some sort of big table of ways to apply those degrees for players/GM within encounters would be nice.

The d100 system has characters testing against their own skills or attributes, thus defining the difficulty of any task by the character's own abilities. In essence, assuming no other detriments from context, characters faced with any task determine its difficulty entirely through their own skill. DH introduces contextual effects through difficulty penalties or bonuses, and other ways of increasing the chances of the roll. At it's core, however, is that player's starting attribute. Compare this a system like D&D where hits are all based on an external difficulty and skills are then added to the roll. Technically, yes, both ways of determining difficulty arrive at the same destination, but the route they take to get there determines how the players and GM perceive the mechanics of the game.

In particular, the modifiers for difficulty in Dark Heresy are fundementally unintuitive for players. This is because the player's conception of difficulty is resting within his character's own skill. The external difficulty of the task is secondary in the player's mind to what his own character is capable of doing, because that is how the base of the roll is determined. When you determine that a task is easy, it gets a +20 or +30. That still leads to your average human in DH failing the task 1/2 the time or 2/5 of the time. So what if you increase the task to where your average person can almost never fail. Why even roll, then? The only reason to make these kinds of rolls is to see how the Degrees of Success/Failure mechanic comes in, which I've already established isn't consistent across all the rolls that players make.

Consider this: you have two characters, one with WS 50 and one with WS 30 both trying to hit someone. Intuitively, and technically, it is harder for the WS 30 character to hit someone. However, the task of hitting someone, external to the characters, is equally difficult. Within the reality of the game, it is not more difficult for WS 30 to hit someone, but it is more difficult within the reality of the dice. Again, this leads to a disconnect between the fiction of the game and the game mechanic.

I mentioned "the average person" above, which DH defines as having around a 35 in all attributes. This average means that for any challenging task, completion only occurs 1/3rd of the time, with around a 2/5ths chance of 3+ degrees of failure. I'm not the first person to note how immersion-breaking this is. However, Dark Heresy briefly states that a roll should never be made unless it can result in something interesting happening. First of all, that rule flies out the window during combat, in which a miss is just a miss, and nothing more. Second, the binary nature of the rolling often leads to times in which a die roll could definitely lead to something interesting, but only for one of either success or failure. Although the "interesting" rule for rolling works well in theory, it is actually at odds with the mindset of the system. The binary dice result leads to players striving for success, adding on modifiers. The GM, in turn, adds on penalties. These bonuses and penalties are not about how interesting an action will be; they are about achieving the binary result. The mindset of the GM and Players is guided toward thinking about success/failure, NOT how interesting the roll is.

Of course, it's simple enough for players and GMs to work around these problems, but I'm arguing that the d100 system by its nature guides players toward these issues by nature of its design and effect.

Something else to mention when it comes to using the d100 system at different power levels is the aforementioned self-determined difficulty. Given that the difficulty of a task is determined by a character's own ability first, it becomes impossible to balance characters of widely differing power levels within the system. The modifiers for "Easy" and "Hellish" are not actually given any grounding within the system. Consider the characters with different WS values. Even though the core difficulty of a shot is based on character attributes, the modifier is based on the factual difficulty. Players and GM have to somehow simultaneously grasp these two different philosophical metrics of how difficult something is. Should picking up a car that is easy for a space marine be difficult for a human? What happens when you reach feats that are literally beyond the ability of a human, but easily within the ability of an alien or space marine? If you try just saying "a human can't do this but the space marine can attempt it", any difficulty modifier you apply is suddenly based on the character rather than the factual difficulty of the action. And that's where the contradiction occurs. The game's design cannot simultaneously handle these things without violating the assumptions of itself.

So, to sum up:
The d100 system bases the core difficulty of an action on a character's factual internal ability
The d100 system modifies that difficulty based on factual external reality for the character
The d100 system runs on a binary Pass/Fail Mechanic
The d100 system modifies the Pass/Fail Mechanic with an inconsistent Degrees of Success/Failure System
Players and GMs are naturally inclined to first view the difficulty of an action by their character's ability, and this in turn conflicts with the ability to determine external difficulty
The d100 system sees the average person failing any challenges 2/3 of the time
The d100 system has a rule to only roll when a task is interesting, but...
The Pass/Fail Mechanic, inconsistent DoS/DoF mechanic, and the system of modifiers all guide players toward focusing on conflict resolution rather than the narrative weight of a task, leading to the above rule getting ignored and not working within the game's framework
The system is unable to simultaneously handle having creatures with greatly differing abilities due to the system for difficulty modifiers not being able to ground itself without violating the assumption that it is based on external difficulty.

Or, to really sum up:
The d100 system kind of sucks, the DoS/DoF system is poorly implemented, and the system can NOT handle having large power differentials in characters/creatures.

Honestly I think moving the system over to the Edge of the Empire dice mechanic would be the best move FFG could make. Shame they didn't do it.

I'd agree with you on that one. Hell, FFG could just publish a conversion guide and engender a lot of goodwill from people who want to use their old adventures.

Honestly I think moving the system over to the Edge of the Empire dice mechanic would be the best move FFG could make. Shame they didn't do it.

Dear god no.

Why? I'm not advocating for card based content or anything, just the core dice mechanic. It does stuff that you really can't achieve with a straight numeric system. What do you have against it?

How does the d100 system work?

...

to really sum up:

The d100 system kind of sucks, the DoS/DoF system is poorly implemented, and the system can NOT handle having large power differentials in characters/creatures.

To summarize my thoughts , I disagree with each of these conclusions.

Why? I'm not advocating for card based content or anything, just the core dice mechanic. It does stuff that you really can't achieve with a straight numeric system. What do you have against it?

Custom dice stink. They're literally not worth the extra oomph they give the system. And I'd contest the idea that what they do can't be recreated with normal dice. Not exactly, maybe, but I can totally create a system that generates several variables with one roll of normal dice.

I guess I can understand people disliking the idea of buying an entire set of dice for one system, it's not something I generally consider because I play online, where all it takes is a little modification to an IRC dicebot or a Roll20 script to make things work just fine.

I'd argue it's well worth the benefits, though. But to each their own I guess.

The thing about my group is, we have ADD when it comes to gaming. We try new systems all the time, some of them stick with us for longer, some we drop after two, three games. Shelling extra cash for dice we'll maybe use five times in our lives doesn't sound like that good a deal.

Fair enough. Although, in that case, you're already losing a ton of money to shelved rulebooks, regardless. But I suppose increasing the amount of money you're wasting isn't a great move.

Fair enough. Although, in that case, you're already losing a ton of money to shelved rulebooks, regardless. But I suppose increasing the amount of money you're wasting isn't a great move.

Dice, when not used in play, are just lumps of plastic gathering dust on my shelf. Did I mention I'm allergic to dust?

Edited by Morangias

Honestly I think moving the system over to the Edge of the Empire dice mechanic would be the best move FFG could make. Shame they didn't do it.

Dear god no.

+1

Why not just make the attributes more concrete in what they mean. For instance, a Strength of 35 in DH is pretty abstract and considered "common" for a soldier. In D&D 2nd Ed a strength of 18 allows a person to carry around 110 lbs weight allowance and maximum press 255 lbs. This idea puts to rest the idea of a guardsman being able to lift an incredibly heavy object versus a Space Marine. Hell, if you wanted to, they could even make the Toughness Attribute directly reflect how many wounds a character has. Example: T 35 = 10 wounds, T 45 = 15 wounds, etc or something like that.

DH2 would need to be great to get me to trust custom dice after WHFRP3.

@darkloic I appreciate your well-reasoned analysis.

As far as not liking EotE for the custom dice, none of these arguments really sit that well with me. If you're trying out new systems all the time, aren't you also constantly buying new books or PDFs? If the former, 10 bucks for communal dice is chump change compared to a forty or fifty dollar book. If the latter, then you obviously have a computer/tablet on hand to use a dice roller on. The whole argument that people don't want to buy new dice rings really hollow to me given how much stuff Chessex puts out and how many dice kickstarters there are. I'm pretty sure the more casual players who don't buy their own dice are also going to be fine having a communal pool, the way that literally every other tabletop game they've played works.

I don't think you can really recreate the results of custom dice on regular dice without a lot of weird derived numbers. Degrees of success already has to use simple math and led to a big brouhaha over the changes to it. The more things you try to tack on to regular dice, the worse off you're going to be for complication. *World games are able to offer a lot of narrative information, but that is because it has the rules for every action always on the table, and even then it only offers three-four kinds of outcomes for the die roll itself.

And Elior, you can't assign concrete values to statistics without keeping in mind that they also specifically mean the chance of failing any challenging task (or any narratively interesting challenging task, but I've already gone over how the system does not support that rule).

I said the d100 system kind of sucks, but it does have its strengths. The system is very much about the individual characters abilities, and the player is constantly reminded of the chance of failure. This system works well in a horror game in which you don't introduce modifiers and dice are only meant to be rolled when it will be interesting, including in combat. The system supports the theme. Dark Heresy's implementation adds a bunch of modifiers based on a different narrative reality than the core system, and also encourages rolling very frequently. Imagine a game of Dread (you draw from a Jenga tower instead of rolling whenever you risk your life) where you have to pull every five seconds that you run from the monster and they try to balance it by adding a rules for other people helping to hold up the tower or knock it down. This is the core issue of DH and the d100 system.

And Elior, you can't assign concrete values to statistics without keeping in mind that they also specifically mean the chance of failing any challenging task (or any narratively interesting challenging task, but I've already gone over how the system does not support that rule).

You could use degrees of success to determine a weight lifted. More degrees of success would dictate how much longer, higher, or farther a weight was carried. Likewise, it could also determine a certain amount of extra weight that can be lifted. A guy that knows his past max lift is 300 lbs can attempt to lift 350 lbs and with a degree or two of success just might be able to do it for a short time. It could be the extra adrenaline, combat drugs, desperation, or sheer will to overcome the odds that enabled the guy to lift more than he has in the past.

And Elior, you can't assign concrete values to statistics without keeping in mind that they also specifically mean the chance of failing any challenging task (or any narratively interesting challenging task, but I've already gone over how the system does not support that rule).

You could use degrees of success to determine a weight lifted. More degrees of success would dictate how much longer, higher, or farther a weight was carried. Likewise, it could also determine a certain amount of extra weight that can be lifted. A guy that knows his past max lift is 300 lbs can attempt to lift 350 lbs and with a degree or two of success just might be able to do it for a short time. It could be the extra adrenaline, combat drugs, desperation, or sheer will to overcome the odds that enabled the guy to lift more than he has in the past.

How does that help the d100 system, though? The main strength that d100 has going for it is the obvious chance of success. Overlaying seemingly random values on top of that doesn't exactly highlight the strengths of the system.

As far as not liking EotE for the custom dice, none of these arguments really sit that well with me. If you're trying out new systems all the time, aren't you also constantly buying new books or PDFs? If the former, 10 bucks for communal dice is chump change compared to a forty or fifty dollar book. If the latter, then you obviously have a computer/tablet on hand to use a dice roller on. The whole argument that people don't want to buy new dice rings really hollow to me given how much stuff Chessex puts out and how many dice kickstarters there are. I'm pretty sure the more casual players who don't buy their own dice are also going to be fine having a communal pool, the way that literally every other tabletop game they've played works.

For the price of one EotE dice set I can buy each member of my group a classic D&D-style set of dice that'll come in handy pretty much regardless what we're playing. When you're playing a lot of things, and on a budget, custom dice is exactly the kind of annoying side cost you don't want to pay.

And Elior, you can't assign concrete values to statistics without keeping in mind that they also specifically mean the chance of failing any challenging task (or any narratively interesting challenging task, but I've already gone over how the system does not support that rule).

You could use degrees of success to determine a weight lifted. More degrees of success would dictate how much longer, higher, or farther a weight was carried. Likewise, it could also determine a certain amount of extra weight that can be lifted. A guy that knows his past max lift is 300 lbs can attempt to lift 350 lbs and with a degree or two of success just might be able to do it for a short time. It could be the extra adrenaline, combat drugs, desperation, or sheer will to overcome the odds that enabled the guy to lift more than he has in the past.

How does that help the d100 system, though? The main strength that d100 has going for it is the obvious chance of success. Overlaying seemingly random values on top of that doesn't exactly highlight the strengths of the system.

I'm just illustrating how the d100 system can distinguish what a Guardsman can do and what a Space Marine can do. I'm not necessarily advocating it because as a GM, I would just make the judgement call. It does however answer player's questions when they ask how much they can lift or how far they can run while packing a heavy load. I think those questions are legitimate that deserve at least a brief explanation.

Can anyone really say how strong a Guardsman is compared to another or are they just all samey with better or worse chances of success?

I'm sure the custom dice system works great, but from a practical standpoint I don't like buying single-use items*. By that I mean items that have one function and one function only. With normal Chessex dice, you can play literally any game that uses dice. With special FFG dice, you can only use them for the game they're made for since they have funny symbols on them.

I don't have any real attachment to the d100 system and I'd love for something simpler, but if it's a dice system I'd like to be dice I already own.

*exceptions: waffle iron, cat litter scoop, windows phone

Edited by cps

@Morangias

Where are you finding sets of dice for less than five bucks? EotE dice are about MSRP and I can't find any dice on amazon for less than $6.50. You're looking at two sets of dice for the cost of one pack of EotE dice. They're not the cheapest things in the world, yes, but they're not exorbitant, and it's easy to use an electronic dice roller. Again, I don't understand the mindset of being willing to quickly switch between $50 rule books but not wanting to splurge on some dice. The biggest tick against EotE is the lack of PDF, but that wasn't a problem for wfrp, quality of PDF aside. I just kind of feel like it's a non-reason substituting for "I don't want to try/learn a new thing."

Edit: and to be fair, $50 rule books on the 40k universe are also single use items. I think its a matter of perception.

Edited by Nimsim

I don't live in the US. The online shop where I buy most of my RPG stuff has a basic set of dice for the equivalent of about four bucks. Incidentally, it also has EotE dice sets for about $15. Shipping is free for frequent buyers, which I am.

Also, few games I actually buy are as pricey as FFG's, especially since I'm only buying corebooks in paper for quite some time. I can get quality local games for as low as $30 per corebook, $15 per sourcebook.

Fair enough. My money experience is not your money experience. I still maintain that a set of dice for a game aren't really any more single use than the game itself, other than the book being used for reading material. Also, electronic dice to try it out, and buying the real thing if you like it is still a valid option that there isn't really a rebuttal to, particularly if you like trying out new systems.

Fair enough. My money experience is not your money experience. I still maintain that a set of dice for a game aren't really any more single use than the game itself, other than the book being used for reading material. Also, electronic dice to try it out, and buying the real thing if you like it is still a valid option that there isn't really a rebuttal to, particularly if you like trying out new systems.

A friend of mine owns a copy of EotE core, and we even played a few games with it using the accursed dice roller (really hate not having physical dice). It was... okay, I guess, but it didn't really offer anything special as far as I'm concerned. Definitely nothing that inspired me to buy those silly dice, and I'd rather not play another game with an electronic roller in my life.

Also, I vehemently disagree about the usefulness of rulebooks vs dice sets. Every game rulebook is a new experience, but dice are just crude random number generators. Or, in the case of SW custom dice, random pictogram generators. I cannot even think of a purpose for dice outside the gaming night, but I definitely did get a lot of mileage out of my book collection even when I wasn't actively playing anything.

"... I'd rather not play another game with an electronic roller in my life.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.

Edited by Brother Orpheo