So, does anyone have it/seen it? From the chatter I understand that content-wise it is a typical GW ripoff and moneygrab, but leave this discussion be. What am I really interested in new fluff usable in DH, as I heard there is some cool stuff for Ordos Minoris and I am dreading more KHWOOOL, Draigo-like bits.

I wouldn't say "rip-off", but for the amount of content, the digital codices certainly are a moneygrab. "Unfortunately", they are kind of a guilty pleasure in that they're still cool enough to shell out for them if one is interested in whatever faction they feature...

Now, I've not seen the Inquisition Codex myself yet, but judging from the SoB one I would not expect a lot of fluff from them - at least not if you are already familiar with earlier Codices such as the Witch Hunter and Daemon Hunter ones. If not, things could be different.

However, from the early reviews, it appears that the new Inquisition Codex has an unusually large list of cool gadgets you can upgrade an Inquisitor with, and some of them could indeed provide inspiration for Dark Heresy gamemasters - Defense Orbs, Empyrean Brain Mines, Psychotroke Grenades and Ulumeathi Plasma Syphons at least sound like they might be cool toys.

Interestingly, it seems the Ordo Hereticus no longer has its own Chamber Militant, for any mention of this connection between the Inquisition and the Adepta Sororitas has disappeared from 6th Edition books. It could be argued that "not mentioned" isn't the same as "ruled out", but it will certainly raise questions if the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch are still named and only the Sisters of Battle are left out.

Speaking of the Deathwatch, I'm kind of disappointed they did not make it into the book - just like Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. One would think these two forces would've been no-brainers for an Inquisition Codex!

Here's a short review: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/11/review-codex-inquisition.html

" - Defense Orbs, Empyrean Brain Mines, Psychotroke Grenades and Ulumeathi Plasma Syphons ..."

Most of these things are in the Daemon Hunters supplement...I think. Daemon Hunters was released a bit before Codex: Grey Knights, so we kind of got a teaser look at that time. Anyway, this stuff is "specialty" use, and meh.

By ripoff I meant combining GK Henchemen and Inquisitors with SoB Battle Conclave and adding bunch of transports (sorry Assanorium, Stormies, Deathwatch...) but alas

Any new backround? I found this post on Warseer.

There is some detail on a few of the minor ordos and there are a whole bunch of other minor ordos mentioned by name with their founding Millennium, estimated strength, and a one or two word description of who or what they watch over. *The ones that get full-page write-ups are the Ordo Chronos (Time), the Ordo Scriptorum(Imperial Communication), the Ordo Machinum(Integration of new technology), and the Ordo Sicarius(Imperial Assassins). The Ordo Originatus and the Ordo Redactus are an interesting pair in that the former is attempting to reveal the truth of the imperium's history through 10,000 years of lies, false-hoods, and propaganda, while the latter tries to obscure the imperium's history to keep enemies from learning a weakness from humanity's past. *The rest have only a name, founding Millenium, estimated strength, and what they watch over. *I'll keep it brief and just give name and what they watch over.
*
It should be noted that it does not say how many of these ordos still exist in M41.
*
*
Ordo Aegis: The Cadian Gate
Ordo Astartes: Adeptus Astartes Chapters
Ordo Astra: Stellar Cartography
Ordo Barbarus: Pre-industrial worlds
Ordo Custodum: Terra
Ordo Desolutus: <Unknown> (Note: contains only 1 Inquisitor)
Ordo Excorium: Exterminatus Use
Ordo Militarum: Imperial Guard
Ordo Necros: <Unknown> (Note: contains only 5 Inquisitors)
Ordo Sanctorum: Ecclesiarchy
Ordo Scriptus: Officio Historica on Terra
Ordo Senatorum: <Unknown>
Ordo Thanatos: <Unknown>
Ordo Vigilus: Ordo Necros
*
Personally, I am super excited by most of these. *Obviously there's overlap with the three major Ordos, but I feel most of these are a lot more regional or managerial in scope.

On furhter reading, it seems the issue with needing the whole of the high lords of terra to assign an imperial assassin has been resolved. Commonly it's an inquisitor of the Ordo Sicarius or two that makes the decision on a High Lord's behalf when one can not be present.

I like the idea of fleshing out a bit minor Ordos, specialised to the dedicated threat. There definitely should be some DH Time Lor...I mean Ordo Chronos sourcebook! I also like Ordo Aegis, probably joint effort of Daemon, Witch and Alienhunters at guarding the literal Gates of Hell. Oh, and Ordo Necris must have something with resurrecting Emperor as there is another Ordo dedicated for its supervision (nice to see writers have sense of humor).

Also, the pimped out Inquisitor from 5th Edition Core Rulebook is known as Emil Darkhammer. *beat*

Something I found extremely weird was that there's apparently an "Ordo Mechanicus" or something to that effect.. obviously, monitoring the Adeptus Mechanicus... which the Inquisition shouldn't hold any real sway over at all.

I mean, obviously they have authority when negotiating with the Magi, but.. having an Ordo with the mandate to monitor the Mechanicus would certainly rub them the wrong way.

Wow, looks like that book did get some more background than I figured after all. Now I'm kind of jealous.

Thanks for the quotation! Maybe I should get it after all ...

Also, lol @ that 1-Inquisitor-Ordo. Forever alone, 40k version!

I think the AdMech's status is often misinterpreted by fans - at least its status in GW's own material. I mean, look at this chart from the 6E rulebook. And the 5E rulebook had a blurb about how Inquisitors have the authority to requisition anything from IG regiments to Marine Chapters to Titan Legions .

In a way, Inquisitors represent the Emperor's own personal intervention, and certainly the Emperor is above the Mechanicus?

True, but legally the Inquisition has no authority to issue orders to them, in the same way they have no legal authority to issue orders to an astartes chapter (the Grey Knights and Deathwatch being special cases). You can declare them heretics and have them burned, or you can ask politely, but you can't give them orders. Hence why it's "inducted guard" but "allied space marines".

However, just as with the Astartes, the Mechanicus are a massively important organisation, so it's hardly surprising there's a group dedicated to keeping tabs on them.

Also, lol @ that 1-Inquisitor-Ordo. Forever alone, 40k version!

Personally I don't think it's an ordo as such. An inquisitor just found an empty office somewhere, made up a name for the door and stopped going to meetings....

True, but legally the Inquisition has no authority to issue orders to them, in the same way they have no legal authority to issue orders to an astartes chapter

I believe this is the case in Dark Heresy, but in GW's material it is not so.

In short, in GW's version of the 41st millennium, Inquisitor > anyone else. Regardless of whether this is a Space Marine Chapter Master, or a high-ranking Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Though this should have been visible from the chart alone, considering that the AdMech is ranked below and attached to the High Lords, one of whom is the Fabricator General himself.

There are various incidents in GW's fluff referencing this sort of authority, too. For example in case of the Relictors Chapter:

"After the Inquisiton censured the Relictors for the actions of Inquisitor De Marche, the Chapter lost its feudal rights to Torva Minoris, which meant they could no longer recruit from amongst its feral tribes. The Relictors were forced to gather potential acolytes from amongst the populations they encountered during their penitent crusade. The Inquisiton has ruled that no Adeptus Astartes Chapter may recruit from Torva Minoris, and it is believed the Ordo Malleus keeps a close watch on the world to ensure its ruling is adhered to."

- Index Astartes

The difference with the Space Marines (which you referenced by the comparison between Inducted IG and Allied SM) is that the latter are more prone to just say "no" and might even be able to get away with it, prompting most Inquisitors to be more careful in their dealings with the Astartes and ask rather than demand. However, this does not change anything about their official mandate. The fluff even deals with this peculiar exception specifically, for to continue the above quote from the Thorian Sourcebook:

And this is why, for example, a Space Marine Chapter Master saying "no" was one of the Battle Narratives in the 3E Witch Hunter Codex. The Inquisition insisted on its mandate, and then set out to censure the wayward Chapter for treason. If the Space Marines would not be so important (both in terms of stability/defence and morale) and such a massive investment of resources, you can bet the Imperium as a whole would not condone their semi-independent conduct, although this also depends heavily on the individual Chapter and its history.

But, things being how they are, the clever Inquisitor is the one who knows when to ask politely - regardless of whether this is referring to the Adeptus Astartes, the Mechanicus, or the Ecclesiarchy:

"Arco-flagellants are normally used by the Ecclesiarchy's fighting forces in suicide attack units. However, an Inquisitor can request (or demand if they are confident enough) that a Cardinal turn over an Arco-flagellant or two to their authority."

If this isn't reflected in Dark Heresy, then this is simply another area where this RPG deviates from the original material, just like it does with the independent Deathwatch, or its female Vostroyans, etc pp. Either way, for the new Codex Inquisition to feature the connection in this light is merely consistent with what has been written before.

From what I've read of the Codex it's a few special rules to have an Inquisitor retinue as its own FOC, all the while copy/pasting pretty much what is in the Grey Knight codex in terms of stats/wargear purchase and such like

Actually the key here is the term "peer of the imperium" this is a rank that includes rogue traders, chapter masters, fabricator generals, lord admirals and a whole load of other high-ups who are allowed a degree of independence in their business.

An inquisitor is given authority equal to theirs so they do not outrank him and may not interfere in his activities but they don`t have to like it, or treat his requests as orders.

It`s like being asked to take someone to hospital in an emergency. You should do it, it is obviously the right thing to do, but you can still choose not to if you really want, even though it will not go down well and will not win you any favour with the sick person or their friends.

That doesn't mesh with the rest of the quote/s, though. The Inquisition's mandate extends above even the High Lords, as the material mentions on more than one occasion - as contradictory as this may seem (for the High Lords are said to speak in the Emperor's name as well ... but then again, I suppose it could be argued they do so only as a body, not as individuals).

Also, I think the only time that Rogue Traders have been called "peers of the Imperium" is in FFG's own books, and even there I recall reading about how this applies only outside Imperial borders.

Do you think Rogue Traders should have the power to requisition Marine Chapters, Navy warships and Titan Legions just by snapping their fingers? I don't. Neither do Chapter Masters, Navy Admirals or Fabricator-Generals. "Ultimate authority over Mankind" is something that I've never heard being granted to anyone but Inquisitors - and the High Lords as a whole (-> the Senatorum, rather than the sum of its parts, whose individual members hold power only over their respective Adeptus).

Okay I see your point. However this is true, an Inqusitors authourity and their mandate do not match exactly.

Take a provost-general and a general, (IIRC) their ranks are equal and neither may directly order the other but the provost general can still enforce law on the general because the powers derived from his mandate (to enforce the law) exceed his direct authority (rank.)

The fact is that an inquisitor's power is only as unlimited as the people around him allow it to be.

A chapter master can say no to a request for aid, or even a demand for it. An Admech Arch-Magi can refuse to turn over an artifact to the inquisition.

The Imperium functions because the various organs of power tends to cooperate but It is within the right of any peer of the imperium to refuse any other peer of the Imperium at any time (as long as they have a decent reason when others come asking why.)

This is why inter-faction conflicts begin within the imperium..

Well ... I'd say yes and no. As the Thorian Sourcebook and the TT rulebooks say, on paper, an Inquisitor's authority supersedes anyone elses, even a High Lord's. In practice, however, the Inquisition relies on the support of the other Imperial organisations. What's an Inquisitor going to do when that Marine Chapter they want to recruit simply denies their request for aid? Knock on their door and attempt to execute the Chapter Master, 5 guys against 1.000+?

Some organisations (such as Imperial Guard Colonel John Doe) are simply more indoctrinated and responsive to "authority on paper" than others who are well aware of their own personal influence, and who are willing to get into political infighting. Sometimes, the end result of this kind of disobedience is bloody, other times it gets ignored (or leads to soured relations up to a Cold War and unofficial repercussions).

But, since the discussion is about an Inquisitor's official mandate, meaning what they can do on paper , there is only one answer: Anything they want.

Where are you getting this that there are any other peers other than the Inquisitors, though? I don't recall hearing this term applied to others, save for perhaps FFG's own books, as mentioned above.

When Inquisitors demand things of the Astartes or Ad Mech, I imagine they couch it in the form of a polite request rather than an actual demand, depending on the nature of the request and the Chapter or Forge World being addressed.

I think the AdMech's status is often misinterpreted by fans - at least its status in GW's own material. I mean, look at this chart from the 6E rulebook. And the 5E rulebook had a blurb about how Inquisitors have the authority to requisition anything from IG regiments to Marine Chapters to Titan Legions .

In a way, Inquisitors represent the Emperor's own personal intervention, and certainly the Emperor is above the Mechanicus?

One of those things, worthy of note, is being exempt from the demands of the Imperial Truth.

While the argument you have is no doubt one that the Inquisition would raise, the AdMech is still a stand-alone organization that doesn't answer to (most) of the regular imperial hierarchy (-ies?), and no doubt a great many orthodox tech-priests would go to great lengths to maintain that stance.

The choice for the Inquisition is to risk an all-out confrontation with mechanicus orthodoxy. And the matter of true legality, such as the Inquisition being acknowledged as being the representatives of the Emperor (by themselves, at least) is somewhat moot; all I was saying is that such an Ordo would very much rub the Mechanicus the wrong way.

Just because there are arguments that the Inquisition has a "right" or a mandate doesn't negate the singular fact that from everything I know of the Mechanicus, the Mechanicus wouldn't have none of that **** right there.

[...]

Where are you getting this that there are any other peers other than the Inquisitors, though? I don't recall hearing this term applied to others, save for perhaps FFG's own books, as mentioned above.

I remember Rogue Traders, Chapter Masters and Inquisitors being specifically referred to as "Peers of the Imperium" somewhere. Wish I could tell you where, though, I honestly don't remember.

The Treaty of Mars cements the Adeptus Mechanicus as an allied empire, not part of the Imperium itself, and exempts it from a great many things.

One of those things, worthy of note, is being exempt from the demands of the Imperial Truth.

Is that something from the novels? If so, this could certainly explain the confusion amongst the fanbase. GW's own material list the Mechanicus domains as "Imperial worlds", and the charts in the rulebooks clearly place the Adeptus Mechanicus on a hierarchical level below the High Lords. The relationship is similar to the Ministorum and its Shrine Worlds - ironical, in a way, as both organisations also send out emissaries to other worlds .. the Ecclesiarchy with its Confessors to take care of the people, and the AdMech with its Tech-Priests to take care of machinery.

The Treaty of Mars, at least in GW's books, was not an alliance of equal powers, it was the Mechanicus bowing to the Emperor and his invasion force and working out a way to survive.

I should probably note that I also don't buy this "Imperial Truth" idea the HH authors came up with as it contradicts GW's Index Astartes articles and sounds a bit silly, considering that you don't need to believe in daemons to feed them.

So we are debating ideas and concepts from FFG novels, as well as information from GW source books and material?

I think this discussion and the discrepances in the GW codizes, FFG rule books, Black Library Novels and so on reflect the Byzantine structure of the Imperium very well. One can't compare this structure with an organization chart of a company of today. Of course there are a few constants (like the Adeptus). But those are more sort of a theoretical framework. The reality of the Imperium is a constant game of power between all the different players. The prize is influence. And in this game the power shifts from one Adeptus to the other over the centuries and even over the different sectors of the Imperium.

So in one century the High Lords of Terra would have great power and influence - at least in the core sectors of the Imperium. In border sectors however the situation might look differently. Same for the Inquisition.

For an Inquisitor this might mean, that he is welcomed on one world with awe and fear and shot on another backwater world, because the people there don't even know about the Inquisition. (Ok after shooting an Inquisitor they would learn the truth about that institution soon enough...)

.

It's more about recognising and accepting the differences between the various different sources. GW's books already talk about the Inquisition's authority being different on paper than it is in reality in such cases - yet that doesn't mean that what it says on the paper would change every century or so. Indeed, such "progress" would be anathema to one of the major narrative themes of the Imperium: stagnation. Its hierarchy and laws persist for millennia; the only thing that changes at any given moment is how they are applied in practice (which is where another major theme of the Imperium begins: internecine rivalry and political power plays).

GW Codices, Forge World Army Books, Black Library novels, Relic's video games and FFG's RPGs do not portray a perfectly uniform setting, and they are not intended to, so there is not even a true "right" or "wrong" on such questions as each interpretation is equally valid. Each of us has to choose for themselves what they prefer. My Deathwatch group, for example, is using FFG's rules but GW's original background.

Ultimately, I just found it odd and somewhat unfair that the GW Codex is being criticised for sticking to what the studio has written all along (consistency!), when actually the conflict is apparently rooted in the authors of licensed material just having decided to pursue a different idea.

We can now return to the original topic or discuss another aspect of that new book, assuming the above represents a perspective acceptable or at least understandable to everyone?

Is that something from the novels? If so, this could certainly explain the confusion amongst the fanbase. GW's own material list the Mechanicus domains as "Imperial worlds", and the charts in the rulebooks clearly place the Adeptus Mechanicus on a hierarchical level below the High Lords. The relationship is similar to the Ministorum and its Shrine Worlds - ironical, in a way, as both organisations also send out emissaries to other worlds .. the Ecclesiarchy with its Confessors to take care of the people, and the AdMech with its Tech-Priests to take care of machinery.

It's primarily from The Horus Heresy (Book One) and Mechanicum , apparently. I have read neither of them, I can only parrot what the almighty Lexicanum tells me:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Mars#.Uoucc-LJLRB

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus#Union_with_the_Imperium

The Treaty of Mars, at least in GW's books, was not an alliance of equal powers, it was the Mechanicus bowing to the Emperor and his invasion force and working out a way to survive.

Well nobody said it was equal . But it wasn't so much the Emperor showing up with his invasion force as a somewhat mutual agreement.

Also, I can't think of any other rationale as to why the Mechanicus would be allowed to keep their religion if the Imperium truly conquered Mars and the Mechanicus. There has to be a reason why they are the only organization allowed to keep and maintain what is essentially a completely different religion.

"The Forge Worlds and Knight Worlds remain fiercely loyal to their Martian masters. Their industry and their tithes are to the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Techno-Magi of the Cult Mechanicus. Where other human worlds in the Imperium are part of the feudal empire controlled by the Administratum of the Adeptus Terra on Earth, the Adeptus Mechanicus retains direct ownership of its own territories. Thus the Forge Worlds and the Knight Worlds owe no obligations to the Adepts of Earth. They raise no regiments for the Imperial Guard and they pay no tithes to the treasury. They are not answerable to the Adeptus Terra but to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Only the Inquisition has jurisdiction in their territories, as there are no worlds in the Imperium where those warriors of righteousness may not walk freely. "

- WD #178

Alright, fair enough, but I still think it's odd. The Inquisition cannot be technically stopped, and while this might be true, all I meant to say is that given the technicality of sovereignty of the Mechanicus and their Forge Worlds, which is supported by this very quote, the Mechanicus, especially independent Magi on individual Forge/Knight Worlds, could very well be of a very different opinion.

And lastly, is it not so that the two heads on the Aquila - the symbol of the Imperium - are supposed to represent the union of Earth and Mars, or do I remember this part incorrectly?

I seem to remember something like that too, but I can't find a source, try as I might. I could only find some unsubstantiated nonsense about looking to the future and the past and being armoured and learning from mistakes and ****;

I should probably note that I also don't buy this "Imperial Truth" idea the HH authors came up with as it contradicts GW's Index Astartes articles and sounds a bit silly, considering that you don't need to believe in daemons to feed them.

Might I ask how it contradicts it? You are clearly more well-read on the Codices and such, whereas I've nearly never even touched them, so it's a honest question.

I always considered it a non-essential interesting bit of background trivia, perhaps a bit interesting because it showed that the Emperor was tired of all the religious nonsense of the galaxy, and tragic because it worked out in the complete opposite of what he wanted.

And I don't think he sought to eradicate the belief in daemons or anything like that. After all, daemons are incredibly real. It would be very religious of him to say "Daemons don't exist!" while you can see and touch them, plain as day.

Edit: On the note of GW vs. Licensed Stuff, I just want to add that I hated what FFG did to Ordo Chronos, and I'm so happy there's some official - arguably more canon than FFG, if there is such a thing as "more canon" - stuff on them now.

If I ever do get around to running a Dark Heresy game for real, I've always wanted the Inquisitor to be revealed to be part of the Ordo Chronos, in the end. I don't know why. I just think time travel is interesting and there's a lot of atypical plots you can make with the Ordo Chronos, as well as sending people on missions that appear nonsensical, but have cascade "butterfly" effects.

Edit 2: As for the chart you posted, I think it is obvious that no matter what fluff you follow or which you consider taking precedence - if any - it's a gross oversimplification of the feudal structure of the Imperium. I much prefer this representation: http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120623174506/warhammer40k/images/1/1e/Structure_of_the_Imperium_of_Man.jpg

I think it's a much better representation and makes a lot less sense.

Well nobody said it was equal . But it wasn't so much the Emperor showing up with his invasion force as a somewhat mutual agreement.

Well, in their old material it was apparently a bit of both. WD #178 went a bit into the early days of the Imperium in a looong and awesome article about the background of the Mechanicus, its Knight Worlds and the Titan Legions:

Note that this is some rather old fluff, though. To my knowledge it's never been contradicted in any GW material itself, but I have no idea if they would still stick to it if they'd publish something new on the subject.

This actually ties in to the thesis of the Emperor actually being indifferent about religion (see below), and could be one more argument against this idea of an "Imperial Truth". But what the books are saying is this:

"Because of their importance to the Imperium, the Adeptus Mechanicus was allowed, in quiet discord, to continue following its own mysterious strictures. The Cult Mechanicus does acknowledge the Emperor as the Master of Mankind, although they do not recognise the authority of the Adeptus Ministorum, despite its official sanction. While other religions were named as heretical for such acts, the Adeptus Mechanicus has been granted an unusual autonomy, a freedom of worship unparalleled save for that granted to the Space Marines for their unusual practices."

- 6E Rulebook

Certainly, the Cult Mechanicus also has the great fortune of being older than the Ministorum - the main power behind any effort to stamp out deviant religions and unsanctioned cult activity. If the Ecclesiarchy had been around earlier, everyone in power being a believer in the Imperial Creed might have resulted in the High Lords attempting to force conversion upon the Tech-Priests. But things being as they are, the Ministorum was too late to the party.

Alright, fair enough, but I still think it's odd. The Inquisition cannot be technically stopped, and while this might be true, all I meant to say is that given the technicality of sovereignty of the Mechanicus and their Forge Worlds, which is supported by this very quote, the Mechanicus, especially independent Magi on individual Forge/Knight Worlds, could very well be of a very different opinion.

Your choice of words is ironically very fitting @ " tech nically".

But I think we are in agreement now, actually? The Inquisition has absolute authority on paper, always and anywhere - how this actually translates to influence on-site when attempting to requisition/request support, however, is another matter entirely. Just like the Thorian Sourcebook stated.

After all, this is why the Inquisition has begun to build up its own standing forces, from Storm Trooper contingents to permanently requisitioned Naval vessels up to even entire Space Marine Chapters. The Inquisition will never be fully independent, though, for even with those assets they must continue to be able to actually supply them. These forces can, however, give them an edge in reinforcing their authority ...

"It is clear then that wherever possible it is best if the Inquisition can deal with a threat using its own resources, avoiding the dangerous entanglements that may result from involving other agencies and military forces. It is for this reason that the Inquisition maintains its own fighting formations, foremost amongst them being the Kill-teams of the Deathwatch Space Marines and the daemon-hunting Grey Knights."

- Thorian Sourcebook

Might I ask how it contradicts it? You are clearly more well-read on the Codices and such, whereas I've nearly never even touched them, so it's a honest question.

I always considered it a non-essential interesting bit of background trivia, perhaps a bit interesting because it showed that the Emperor was tired of all the religious nonsense of the galaxy, and tragic because it worked out in the complete opposite of what he wanted.

And I don't think he sought to eradicate the belief in daemons or anything like that. After all, daemons are incredibly real. It would be very religious of him to say "Daemons don't exist!" while you can see and touch them, plain as day.

Oh, it's just that when reading about the Word Bearers in WD #270, the Emperor isn't annoyed at their use of religion at all. The only thing he criticises is that they are wasting time and resources with establishing it, when they ought to be out there, fighting and conquering.

"When the Emperor took note of Lorgar's slow advance across the stars, he personally reproached his Primarch. He informed Lorgar that his purpose was not for faith, but for battle. The true mission of the Space Marines was to re-conquer and unify the galaxy under the banner of Imperium, not to waste precious time and resources in vast displays of fealty and piety."

Nothing about the Emperor flipping out because religion was directly polar to what he wanted (which makes sense, as otherwise I'm sure he would've clearly told Lorgar and everyone else to spread this "Imperial Truth", which in turn would have led to Lorgar attempting to show his allegiance that way instead of doing the exact opposite ).

Just Lorgar being "look what I made for you, daddy!" and the Emperor being like "stop wasting time and get back to work".

Which just seems so much more fitting and cold.

Although I will say that The Last Church was a cool short story. This was actually something from the HH novels that I did read.

And as for the daemons, wasn't this the main reason for the Emperor implementing this policy in the Horus Heresy novels? I'm relying entirely on second hand reports here, but this is what I've been told .. basically, Emps attempting to weaken Chaos by combating superstition and belief.

There actually may be some truth to such a policy affecting the Warp, but emotions are a far more potent "fuel" than faith; the latter is merely a gateway to the former.

On the note of GW vs. Licensed Stuff, I just want to add that I hated what FFG did to Ordo Chronos, and I'm so happy there's some official - arguably more canon than FFG, if there is such a thing as "more canon" - stuff on them now.

Now you've got me at a disadvantage. What's the differences there? Regardless of the source, I know very little about the Ordo Chronos other than its purpose.

I'm usually not too big on time travel as it tends to open up too many doors for plot holes and shenanigans, but in 40k it is not so much of a problem because it's not really controllable here, but rather a random byproduct of space travel. And I could certainly see Inquisitors being interested in this, given the potential applications of this effect ...

There are specific references to The Emperor not wanting to be worshipped though. I will have to dig around to find them, but they do exist. Whether or not the HH novels contradict or supercede that now...

The Ordo Chronos was awesome, they were meant to watch for people who went into the warp and came out WAY later and complicating things, and that rare occasion when ships came back to realspace before they left. Then as I recall they pissed off into the timestream themselves and disappeared. Brilliant. I bet they were good friends with the Inquisitor in his lonely Ordo.

But I think we are in agreement now, actually?

I think we always were, on this topic.

Now you've got me at a disadvantage. What's the differences there? Regardless of the source, I know very little about the Ordo Chronos other than its purpose.

I'm usually not too big on time travel as it tends to open up too many doors for plot holes and shenanigans, but in 40k it is not so much of a problem because it's not really controllable here, but rather a random byproduct of space travel. And I could certainly see Inquisitors being interested in this, given the potential applications of this effect ...

Basically, Ordo Chronos was removed from the universe in.. Deathwatch, I believe. They just up and vanished. Poof. Every last member just gone.

Which, as you might imagine, kinda throws a wrench into everything for anyone wanting to make actual use of the fluff surrounding Ordo Chronos. Yes, yes, I realize that you can pick and choose for your own private campaign, but I like sticking close to fluff; or at least my interpretation of it.

The stuff in Codex: Inquisition, however, makes the state of Ordo Chronos a lot more.. ambiguous. It doesn't go deep into Ordo Chronos as such, but it suggests that the Ordo is simply hiding, or have gone undercover en masse. Gone is the suggestion that they just up and disappeared like some wide-scale Houdini vanishing act, and there is more leeway in interpretation.

As for running Ordo Chronos myself.. I can see a lot of potential. While the act of time travel may seem random or be a by-product of warp travel, I can see missions where the Inquisitor asks Acolytes to do seemingly random things that have butterfly effects that they have planned for, or maybe the Ordo have calculated the arrival of something that is out-of-time, sending a ship to intercept a ship from the past.. or the future.

Maybe they simply know things that nobody else really knows, or have reports from futures where no-one else have been, and who knows who - or what - they keep in the dungeons of their fortresses? I have an idea for a Ordo Chronos Polypsykana Inquisitor, that goes to great lengths to keep the timeline "on schedule". On schedule for what? Who knows?

Maybe there's a certain order to things, a cause and effect throughout the universe, and it simply isn't meant to take the warp into effect, and each time dilation or compression suffered ripples across time and space, constantly changing fate itself, and Ordo Chronos have to be there - or think that they have to be there - to 'fix' the broken strands.

Destroy a ship that came out in the wrong place at the wrong time; they didn't do anything wrong, but they could have a severe impact on the space-time continuum, so they need to die.

Take one ship and make sure that it's in the right place at the right time, to be sent to the other right place at the right time.

Assassinate a Rogue Trader that isn't actually supposed to be alive anymore, to throw his Empire into disarray, so he cannot prevent the future uprisings there that will, down the road, cement the founding of a Multi-System Psyker Republic.

There's a schedule, people! Can't you see that there's a schedule ? Chop chop, be on time, everyone! Take positions, here we go!

Like the antagonist in Star Trek: Voyager's Year of Hell (S01E08), constantly recalculating how close to the desired baseline everything is at any given moment.

Arronax(sp?) was a badass villain. I really like the actor, too, so that only helped.

Your ideas also make me think of the "Temporal Cold War" in Enterprise...

Was the Ordo Chronos really eliminated or just not mentioned, by the way?

Anyways, you ought to feel more comfortable using your interpretation of the fluff - it should be obvious by now that the many official sources all contradict each other on such details, so why not pick the one that's closest to your preferences?

Or do you have a personal policy of "preferred sources" based on origin rather than content, basically sticking to FFG's books in a similar manner as I stick to GW's?

Arronax(sp?) was a badass villain. I really like the actor, too, so that only helped.

Your ideas also make me think of the "Temporal Cold War" in Enterprise...

Another potentially cool scenario, and about the only plotline in Enterprise that I kinda liked.

Time-travel in TV-shows, including Star Trek, tends to be terrible, though - or at least resolved in a terrible fashion, often resulting in the new timeline either being rendered irrelevant (thus making the entire plotline moot from a narrative standpoint; it never happened, after all) or one or several characters being superimposed over a new timeline, meaning that all preceding plotlines and knowledge of the narrative is rendered moot, which is a surefire way to kill any and all interest in a TV-series ( Fringe , I'm looking at you!).

Was the Ordo Chronos really eliminated or just not mentioned, by the way?

Just... gone. It's mentioned, just.. they're just gone .

I was wrong, though. It wasn't in Deathwatch, although it's alluded to in Deathwatch - First Founding, pg. 88. But the story of Ordo Xenos just up and disappearing is in Dark Heresy - Ascension, pg. 171.

Anyways, you ought to feel more comfortable using your interpretation of the fluff - it should be obvious by now that the many official sources all contradict each other on such details, so why not pick the one that's closest to your preferences?

Or do you have a personal policy of "preferred sources" based on origin rather than content, basically sticking to FFG's books in a similar manner as I stick to GW's?

I tend to just pick whatever is the newest, with a highly selective memory, trying to tie it all together in a manner that "makes sense" to me, which is why my mileage may vary when professing the factual state of the fluff.