Does anyone ever notice how "luck" also happens when it does absolutely NOTHING to the game's status? I mean sure everyone notices when an attack lands four hits and then the defender either makes or misses all of his rolls but do we ever pay attention when an attack misses with all (or at least most) of its dice (even after all modifiers) but then the defender rolls a perfect defense which does no good?

We are conditioned to notice the "dramatic" die results but often ignore any other cases of "luck" when it didn't really matter. Rolling perfect defense against an attack that misses, rolling damage in excess of what the target can possibly avoid and/or absorb, and other things happen where the luck involved doesn't mean a thing.

yep. I've seen more 3-4 evades rolled vs. 1 hit than I've seen ties one- shot'd.

I think this game strikes a great balance between skill and luck.

The fact is this: Wedge and a Rookie are flying the same exact ship, stat for stat. The only difference is the Pilot skill. That's where the point cost comes in. Elite skills and modifications are there, but if you think about, it only adds to the total cost of the pilot/ship combo. The real question is: Is Wedge with these glorious elite skills, upgrades and pilot skill, worth costing 1.5x-2x of the Rookie Pilot? I like my Wedge with R2, PTL and Engine Upgrade, but that puts him to 37 points. Statistically, there's no way Wedge can out preform 2x the health, 2x the evade, and 2x the shots as ~2x Rookies.

This is the statistics that the people have been talking about.

An elite pilot is more than a statistic, his abilities as a pilot let him do things that other lesser pilots cant. His abilities let him get that extra shoot or die roll both attacking and defending. Examine some of the great pilots, Sakai in his engagement with 12 Hellcats in 1944, Marseille in his engagement where he destroyed 7 aircraft while out numbered, aces have instincts that make them better. That is what we really do not represent in x-wing. then maybe we do not need too or cant within the framework of the game.

The fact is this: Wedge and a Rookie are flying the same exact ship, stat for stat. The only difference is the Pilot skill.

Well, and Wedge having one of the best Pilot skills in the game.. one less evade dice makes a huge difference.

Maybe we just need slightly better (for the same cost) elite talents to make high ps pilots more worthwhile. Increase their effectiveness per point without any errata. Things that make them more worth the points difference.

We're starting to see PS restrictions on some upgrades and such. I expect this trend to continue: I was actually surprised the Royal Guard title didn't have it a bit higher (1-2).

We also have a few options that are better if your opponent is low PS... another trend I expect to continue.

An elite pilot is more than a statistic, his abilities as a pilot let him do things that other lesser pilots cant. His abilities let him get that extra shoot or die roll both attacking and defending. Examine some of the great pilots, Sakai in his engagement with 12 Hellcats in 1944, Marseille in his engagement where he destroyed 7 aircraft while out numbered, aces have instincts that make them better. That is what we really do not represent in x-wing. then maybe we do not need too or cant within the framework of the game.

Maybe we just need slightly better (for the same cost) elite talents to make high ps pilots more worthwhile. Increase their effectiveness per point without any errata. Things that make them more worth the points difference.

I think this would actually be kind of easy, without having to errata the cards or change anything in terms of stats. It would be a core gameplay fix that would make elite pilots stand out.

For example, and this is just an example, what if pilots with the elite pilot skill can make an additional action, or choose to move at any PS0-10, or even elect to save an action until his opponent declares him as a target. This could easily be errata'd into the rulebook without it affecting any of the cards since it will affect everyone who's an elite pilot.

The complaint that is confusing me is that players with equal skill (everyone in the top 8) who play "perfect" games always end up coming down to luck. Well of course! If they're really equal, no amount of changes to the rules is going to let one win by outplaying. They'll still be equal under new rules.

If the problem is that there is an optimum maneuver so it's easy to predict each other, then that predictability makes that maneuver no longer optimal. Fly more unpredictably. If you're behind Fell and you just know he's going to k-turn, veer off and boost and switch targets, leaving fell with nothing to shoot at and unable to take another k-turn. Always focusing on maximizing your dice is what is making you predictable. Sometimes it makes more sense to throw less dice now in favor of throwing more later, esp. if it messes up your opponents tactics. If your directly behind, you've got two ways to turn, so even if he knows that's what you're doing you're still unpredictable.

Coincidentally, this is also what higher pilot skills excel at.

Yes, but if we had a ruleset with more options, there would be less equity between them, so they could actually find out who is the better player, not the luckier one!

I also don't know if anyone here said that X-Wing should not at all be a dice game. Just skill and perhaps also list options should play a bit more of a role.

Outmanoeuvering would be great indeed, if you just had the possibility to do so. Being unpredictable often means taking bad choices. You can see this at worlds where ships in the beginning are perfectly maneuvered in formations, and what is left over after that just does K-turn, then green maneuver turn after turn most of the time. Because it maximizes shots and there just is nothing else to do basically. Oh yeah and in the finals when the imperial player just triedto do something a little different and barrel rolled, he lost the game...

Concerning the list choices. In X-Wing, Luke Skywalker shoots as good as a rookie. And dodges as good as one, well except for his special ability of course.

In nearly every other tabletop game where shooting is implied, there are ways to differentiate a good shot from a bad one. Lookat 40k for instance. A space marine captain shoots much better than a normal marine, who in return shoots better than an ork boy. This explains part if their point cost difference. In X-Wing, you only have Pilot skill and special abilities to distinguish them basically. And this falls a little short to do so. And all that combined explains why we see so many rookies and academies!

It would be a good thing if high PS can choose to reveal dial and move first (before others with lower PS). That would change the maneuverabilty and options for high PS pilots, you can either go first and block or break out of a upcoming block. Leave everything else as it is. I will try it out to see how that works.

Yes, but if we had a ruleset with more options, there would be less equity between them, so they could actually find out who is the better player, not the luckier one!

I also don't know if anyone here said that X-Wing should not at all be a dice game. Just skill and perhaps also list options should play a bit more of a role.

This sounds very much like a game I wouldn't want to play. And I don't see how having more options would help. You already have a lot of options in crew building. Adding more doesn't really change the situation there will always be a couple of models that are the bread an butter in tournament play. As long as tournaments are 100pt, and all that really matters is you don't lose, players will always gravitate to the cheapest most reliable options, rather than more risky options (Risky does not mean bad, a model can hit like a sledgehammer, but if it can go down to a lucky shot it's risky)

Outmanoeuvering would be great indeed, if you just had the possibility to do so. Being unpredictable often means taking bad choices. You can see this at worlds where ships in the beginning are perfectly maneuvered in formations, and what is left over after that just does K-turn, then green maneuver turn after turn most of the time. Because it maximizes shots and there just is nothing else to do basically. Oh yeah and in the finals when the imperial player just triedto do something a little different and barrel rolled, he lost the game...

Obviously your playing a different game, because there are lots of ways to play that aren't as you describe. A lot of the time you win by pulling out and reforming and then taking the enemy piecemeal. It's won by the person that can best focus fire, guess where the opponent will be, and doesn't act predictably.

Concerning the list choices. In X-Wing, Luke Skywalker shoots as good as a rookie. And dodges as good as one, well except for his special ability of course.

In nearly every other tabletop game where shooting is implied, there are ways to differentiate a good shot from a bad one. Lookat 40k for instance. A space marine captain shoots much better than a normal marine, who in return shoots better than an ork boy. This explains part if their point cost difference. In X-Wing, you only have Pilot skill and special abilities to distinguish them basically. And this falls a little short to do so. And all that combined explains why we see so many rookies and academies!

That is due to the way that 100pt tournament games are scored more that named characters being bad. And I think the type of ship should have more impact on how it performs than the character in it. There are a lot of people that don't like HEROHAMMER as it used to be called, and in later editions they moved away from it to put more emphasis on base units. Which is how it should be.

I have played Warhammer long enough to know it's by no means a perfect game, hell it even has terrible flaws. Last edition of 40k was terribly unbalanced and had power creep. I see they try to get it fixed now.

Herohammer you talk about in 40k was 2nd edition, right? I started with 3rd, and stopped playing with current edition mainly because of GW's ridiculous price policy. I mean i am prepared to spend lots of money for a game, but right now it's pretty sick what they ask for their miniatures. I always liked balanced armies in this game over only troops or maxed out heroes, and did quite well even in local tournaments like that.

I know that X-Wing is a quite different game, but some stuff is certainly not wrong to look at. I mean in Both Warhammers, and also in Warmahordes, which i consider to be one of the best balanced games i have ever played, have ways to determine how good someone shoots or dodges. I agree that in X-Wing, Wedge and a rookie fly the same ship types, which kinda limits them to some stats logically needing to be the same. I mean Wedges X-Wing is no more agile than any other. But...

It is ridiculous that a veteran of Wedges calibre or Jedi like Vader or Luke have the same chances of hitting Rookie XY than vice versa. Ok they have some special abilities, but they just don't make up for their huge cost in a lot of cases.

So maybe there should be a way to make pilots with better pilot skill hit and dodge better than their counterparts.

Also that would actually fix part of the problem in tournaments, since Good pilots would be harder to kill than bad ones, making them more attractive to play. I don't say the current tournament system is perfect, but fixing the game would be a better approach.

Concerning the manoeuvering. No actually i am dead serious, look at worlds and gencon videos. Just watch them or spectate even local tournaments. You will see that there is hardly any room for creativity. There are a lot of options on maneuver dials, but there is always one that is optimal. And since everyone of those guys knows what to do this leads to pretty predictable movement and monotony! Have you actually seen anyone disengage and reform? I have seen someone try it because he had a bad angle of approach (it was that 4X-Wing list with Luke from top 8 playing against thr later world champion), and he just got punished for it and didn't recover. Target priority is also a little ridiculous, because everyone plays tons of plain noname pilots without upgrades. So you take shots at Howlrunner because you see an opportunity, at Biggs because you have to, and for the rest its pretty clear you need to kill the most expensive ships to win...

I don't say they need to make Rookies and Academx Ties so unattractive that nobody ever wants to play them, but it's Star Wars and the Characters and Heroes ARE this universes bread and butter, and not the 2nd B-Wing on the left side of the screen in Return of the Jedi. And that's why they need to be very solid choices that distinguish themselves much more from vanilla pilots! And that's not only true for tournaments but for any game mode.