I've got a query re Ice in conjuction with Dragon Bite

Ice

Challenges: While attached character is participating in a challenge, kneel and discard Ice from play (cannot be saved) to choose and kill another participating character.

Dragon Bite

Attached character is killed any time it is participating in a challenge in which a Dragon character is participating

I attacked my oponent, with a dragon, and he defended with a character with both Ice and Dragon Bite attached

Due to meeting Dragon Bite's criteria, the defending character was killed immediately after kneeling - Dragon Bite being a passive

My oponent tried to use Ice on me - to win the game no less

a) I assumed that as the defending character was killed, they were no longer participating in the challenge and thus could not trigger Ice's response

b) I totally overlooked (and my oponent wasn't going to tell me!) that Ice needs to be knelt and discarded in order to trigger its effect

Is the killed character still participating in the challenge to enable triggering an effect such as "While attached character is participating in a challenge" - character and attachment would be in moribund by the time that action can be triggered

Surely you cannot discard a card when it is already in moribund

thanks

You're assessment is correct.

Because the character is moribund:dead at this stage, the attachment is moribund:discard. Ice's effect also requires it to be discarded. Once a card is moribund, you cannot attempt to do something else to that card to cause it to leave play for a different reason (without a replacement effect).

Even more basic than that:

- Moribund cards are removed from the table at the end of the action window in which they become moribund.

- The defending character was killed by Dragon Bite and became moribund upon being declared. Therefore, it was removed from the table at the end of the "declare defenders" framework action window.

- Ice is a standard "Challenges" Player Action. Therefore, your opponent had to wait for a new "player action" opportunity before it could be triggered. That means a new action window after the close of the "declare defenders" framework window (in which the character was killed by Dragon Bite).

So really, the defending character was already physically in the dead pile (with attachments discarded) before your opponent ever had the chance to trigger Ice.

While doulos2k's answer about moribund cards not being able to be removed from play a second time is totally correct, it only comes into play when looking at Response effects. Anything other than a Response effect (like the "Challenges" effect on Ice) cannot even be triggered until after the moribund card has left play completely.

Dragon Bite completely trumps Ice in the above scenario because of the "passive" vs. "non-response triggered effect" timing.

thanks for the responses - sounds like we have also been a bit confused as to how long cards stay in moribund ... i.e. thinking they are there for the whole challenge as opposed to each step

I was also wondering whether a dead character, such as in this instance, would still be classed as participating in the challenge - it's not relevent with Ice but might crop up for some other situation

My instinct is that if someone is dead then they cannot possibly be participating in the challenge

I was also wondering whether a dead character, such as in this instance, would still be classed as participating in the challenge - it's not relevent with Ice but might crop up for some other situation

A character that is killed while participating would still be considered to be participating in the challenge - but only while it was moribund. Once the character leaves play, it is certainly not going to be participating anymore.

The thing to remember is that "moribund" is a very temporary state. It only lasts for as long as the passives and responses to whatever killed the character in the first place. Then the card is taken off the table. A moribund card will NEVER make it to challenge resolution.

Another question re moribund state

Endless Endurance

Challenges: Choose 1 of your participating House Stark characters to get +2 STR until the end of the challenge.
Response: After you win a Military challenge by 4 or more total STR, return Endless Endurance from your discard pile to your hand.

If I initiate a military challenge and play Endless Endurance, and then win the challenge by 4 or more, can I get back Endless Endurance for the result of that challenge

... we have been playing that the card would be in moribund and thus could not get it back, but now I think that was wrong

i.e. now beleive the card moves out of moribund the moment the player action window closes and before the challenge resolution

We also often have examples of someone being killed for a challenge claim and then kneeling in moribund to pay the cost of some response - i.e. Lannister Pays His Debts ... which I think is correct

Endless Endurance's strength buff effect is a Player Action, so it happens within its own window. That means it leaves moribund (and goes into the discard pile) at the close of the action window it opened, so it would not be moribund at the point that the challenge winner is determined. So, what you now believe is correct.

So, yes, the play where you buff your own dude and you win by 4, means you can then pull Endless Endurance out of the discard pile back into your hand.

HastAttack, remember the following anatomy of a challenge:

A) Initiate challenge (active player names challenge type and declares attackers)

B) Players take turns using "Challenges" or "Any Phase" actions.

C) Defend challenge (active player assigns stealth, defending player declares defenders)

D) Players take turns using "Challenges" or "Any Phase" actions.

E) Resolve challenge (determine winner, resolve claim effects, award unopposed, award renown)

You will remove moribund cards from the table after each of those steps (and after each individual "Challenges" or "Any Phase" action in B and D).

In your original Dragon Bite/Ice question, the defending character went moribund in Step C and was removed from the table before Ice could be triggered in Step D.

In your Lannister Pays His Debts example, since the card was killed for claim in Step E (going moribund) and ALPHD is a response to the resolution of the same challenge (so also happens in that Step E), the moribund character would still be on the table to assist with paying the cost of the event.