The Imperium is not a technologically orientated society, but it is very much a technologically advanced one. The Mechanicus have a great understanding of science and technology, even if cloaked in mysticism. The Mechanicus investigation detailed in the Necron Codex, for example, demonstrates a great deal of understanding of the processes of empiricism, experimentation, and understanding of scientific laws (which the Necron weapons appear to violate in so many ways, understandible considering how insanely advanced their tech is [FTL in real space]).

The Imperium can produce highly effective man portable laser weapons, which is an incredible accomplishment. That these weapons are so logistically robust that you can recharge their power cells by throwing them into a fire even more so. They have highly effective forcefield technology, super materials used not only as armour, but to build multikilometer tall buildings and hive spires. Antigravity. FTL. Extraordinarily potent power generation systems that can power enormously powerful energy weapons and accelerate multiple kilometer long space ships at tens or hundreds of gravities. Ships tough enough to survive that kind of acceleration. Nanotechnology and computer systems built into tattoos.

Don't be fueled by the more mystical terminology, the rejection of Artificial Intelligence, or the ignorance of the common man. The technology of the Imperium of Man is frighteningly advanced and capable.

Cynical Cat said:

I must disagree. The Imperium is a mix of frightening advanced technology and pathetically primitive technology. The same Guard officer who carried a compact man-portable energy weapon also carries a 3-foot long steel sword. You have squads with heavy machine guns that would not be out of place in a WWII battle alongside plasma weapons that can vaporize a man. You have guard regiments that consist of feral tribes of headhunters in furs carrying axes and laser rifles into battle.

For me, that's what gives the 40K universe it's charm.

Yes, it's a technological mix. If your Guard recruits come from a primitive world, they're probably going to want an axe. Since a chunk of their officers will be tribal chiefs, that's the way it is going to be. Given the effectiveness of 40K armour, they might actually live to use a monoedged axe in close quarters. Ditto with the ceremonial sword that will probably only be used in duels.

As for heavy machine guns, they're still useful. Like the humble shovel, I imagine the support MG will be with armies in one form or another as long as there are armies.

Cynical Cat said:

Why did I KNOW I was going to see the word "monoedged" somewhere in your response. Sigh. I think you and I just have to accept that we have radically different views of the 40K universe... which is cool!

I would think a clever rogue trader would have little trouble taking over Earth.

Someone made a very good comparison of conquistadors and rogue traders in this scenario, and historically the conquistadors heavily relied upon native assistance in their original bids for power in the new world.

A clever rogue trader would approach earth a diplomat, and not as a warrior. NATO (equivalent of the Aztec for the conquistadors) should be the first target. Mass propaganda beamed from space (keep it peaceful mind you) and secret alliances with major powers (such as China) would be the first move. After the rogue trader has a few allies in the bag, and has perhaps armed and equipped the third world nations, a G20 like summit should be planned on the rogue trader’s ship. During the summit you turn the world leaders (barring those you are allied to) into servitors (try and keep the head and shoulders human looking so you can broadcast false orders and propaganda). The NATO nations would be quite upset that you’ve turned their leaders into puppets (as they will eventually figure out), but during the initial confusion you launch space bombardment and Guard landings in tandem with your earth allies.

I made up this plan as I went along typing this post and I am sure a real rogue trader with a good amount of time to plan could abuse earths politics to his aims far better than my rough plan above. Why would he do all the work when there are plenty of people to dupe into doing it for him?

LuciusT said:

Such technology is common in 40K, that's why. IG assault troops often get issued far more expensive chain weapons. Equipping a bunch of feral worlders with axes that are effective against enemy body armour is both easy and makes sense. There's a reason the easy to maintain, almost no moving parts, don't even have to lead your target, point and shoot lasgun is the IG's standard weapon. It's cheap and even a feral worlder can be dangerous with it with a little training.

As for how tough ships are Space Hulk has the numbers on a Armageddon class nuke launched from Gothic class cruiser. BFG counts it as a barrage torpedo, which isn't the most effective weapon in the game by a long shot. It deploys 128 submunitions. Each submunition is 5 gigatons. Execution Hour as megaton level explosions from the blasts of turret weapons, weapons BFG counts as being too weak to be of much use against capital ships and escorts. Leman Russ variant withstand huge transfers of momentum and KE in Honor Guard that would wreck any modern tank.

Any Rogue Trader can pound the equivalent of modern earth's militaries into ash. That's not the issue. Hell the US already has that capability. You can just look at Iraq and see why beating a country's military is only part of the war. A Rogue Trader will have military superiority, but unless he has a huge fleet he cannot effectively occupy much of the planet. He can bomb it back into the stone age, but that isn't at all profitable and he's in it for profit.

interesting discussion

one thing on nukes - from at least one novel it seems the Imperium is somewhat vulnerable to EMP - Titans are tempoarily disabled by the EMP wave from a nuclear attack

Another thing on the Imperiums side is Psykers - gives them an edge we have no real experience in dealing with.

As I said the difficulty it that a world in the 40K universe would have had to deal with the problems of the hostile galaxy in a way we have not, thus far had to - be that Xenos invasions, Warp storms, Psykers and related manifestations of Chaos.

An important point already made is that to destory the enemy military is reltively easy - holding the planet is a different matter. It may be more productive to offer trade and diplomacy (especially to a human civilisation) and decide whether they will become:

a) useful trading partners

b) fully part of the Imperium

c) threats that need to be neutralised by either the Rogue Trader or by Imperial forces - say some crusading Black Templars looking for something to do

d) something to be avoided (or combined with c)

Alot will depend on the personlaity of the Rogue Trader and his or her likes, dislikes, desires. Also I doubt the Inquisiton wants more contact like that with the Tau which alothough intially productive for the RT's has caused a lot of problems in the sectors that border the Tau Empire.

I still highly doubt a Rogue Trader could conquer a tier eight civilization such as Earth without destroying it. All those gigaton weapons described would most likely crack the planets crust and if not then poison the ecosystem, either through the distabilization they cause or the toxicity. This wouldn't simply be a ice age but the production of a dead or dieing world. Sure the Rogue Trader could throw everything he has at the world, but unless he's a puritan of unrelenting quality, something even rarer than the fleets many assume he has in his possession, he'd look for a less devastating method.

I'd also like to address the grands idea that the Imperium is some futuristic land of science, where they understand things beyond our comprehension. No, most of the Imperium except for a very small elite such as Magos, have no idea how the things they operate work. In fact, one of the higher ranks in the Admech is a electropriest who is the equivalent of an electrician on Earth. Full blown enginseers are only knowelegable of the rites of matainence. The average Imperial tactician won't think in terms of statistics and instead base his decisions on what he has learned through experience, not knoweledge. He may use ten times the number of munitions required to destroy a target, because that's what he saw his former commander use while he was of inferior rank.

STC's are not perfect devices. Instead they are the remnants of long eroded copies of copies of copies of blueprints that were copied from such a device. These plans weren't based off superiority or technological level either. They were based on whatever materials the colonist had around. Sure you could have a Lemann Russ built with top of the line plasteel, equiped with the best congitators known, and hand crafted tungesten shell to boot. You could just as well have one built from steel nay bronze, firing crude explosives while running on vegetable oil. It all depends on what world it orginates from making each tank design unique. Many of the Imperium's high technology was considered long obsolete during the DAoT while most of their building plans are based off inferior copies leading to vestigal components of no use. This all leads to the Imperium having a few powerful technology while the rest of it has very primitive knock offs. Its all going to get worse the older the Imperium gets because soon they'll start forgetting how to produce las weapons and the technology will start drifting off into obscurity just like plasma weapons.

Someone mentioned 12mm rifles beings the norm for autoguns and well I got some news for you. Unless the human and I stress this human user is using this anti-tank machinegun, then he'll probably break his wrist to say the least of all the chaos that occurs. Since the fluff compares browning machine guns with 12.7mm equal to heavy stubbers, why even mount them on tanks if every man can carry that much heat? Please lets not throwing physics out the window when citing fictional sources and asking for belief. In fact you can use all the magically hard metal armor you want but you'll still have to deal with the kinetics of a weapon or like the person who said Dragonskin was inferior, you'll be squished to jelly.

When people say the Rogue Trader could be crafty and trick Earth's governments against each other, I say they must be mistaking politicians for gibbering fools who can't tie their own shoes much less feed themselves. If a less advanced human civilization meets a superior one, hostility is immenent. While the Rogue Trader can try to make a deal with an individual nation, every other will undoubted be listening in. The response will be brutal and not even nations such as China or the United States can stand up against such an encompassing assault. In fact, instead of putting them against each other, the Rogue Trader will have united them. Even with the threat of total destruction, very few nations are not veterens of the Cold War, so they know what it is like to have such a thing looming over them with every turn. They will recognize their very human enemy for what he is, a conquerer and to what use is a shattered world to one who seeks plunder? The Rogue Trader's next act will either be to innate small trades, with heavy oversight by all the member nations, with UN. With time he may gain trust, but once he begins talk of absorption of Earth and domination by the Imperium, all this will wither. He may not return for many years, but by then, Earth will be prepared and will have their guns aimed at the sky. Not even a titan can withstand multiple hydrogen bombs.

On a final note I seem to remember this post being on how a Rogue Trader could conquer an Earth like civilization. I have never scene any indication that such a explorer has access to the Mechanicus's most potent weapon, the Titans, or him having legions of Imperial Guardsmen, heaven forbide Space Marines. Sure the most well off Rogue Traders might have a dozen Space Marines at their disposal, but only if they are pious and have performed a great deed for the Chapter. People forget that they are looters in their highest form at heart, and every soul they carry on their vessels detracts from the profit they gain. The fluff says a Imperial Navy cruiser can only carry a few thousand crew and even fewer passengers such as foot soldiers. A Rogue Trader might carry even less because he has to pay to maintain his vessel and can't rely on the masses to fund him through tribute. He'll hardly be lugging massive warmachines around the cosmos if he has to make a deadline.

PS. How many RPG's do we have on this planet? How rare is a bolter? One billion soldiers with RPGs and heavy vehicular suport(Abraham Tanks/Raptor Fighters) vs. one thousand Rogue Trader goons with bolters and light vehicles(chimeras/land speeders). Who do you think will win?

LordMunchkin said:

1: Just because the majority of the populace dose not understand how a technology works dose not mean the devices suck, in fact the opposite is more likely. Most people today dont understand how a light works but they know how to use one. The same is true of almost every thing you use in your daoly life, from your tooth paste to you car radio.

2: 12mm is around the same size as .50 caliber (slightly smaller .50 cal = 12.7mm). There are curently 50 cal Assult Rifles (the Beowulf from Alexander Arms) dont fear breaking your arms while firing it . An M16 fires the same size bullet as a .22, the differance is the amount of powder, the same is true of the Beowulf/ M2. The "Ma Duce" fires the same size bullet but with way more powder.

You are absolutely correct when it comes to Kinetics. Which is why I think the Leman would be supperior to tha Abrems/Palludin (the tech in the Abrems was given to us by the brits Palludin). The main gun on the Leman is the equivalent of stuby version of naval battleship gun.

3: 12 SM + teleporter + limited Orbital Bombardment = we lose the initial battle, as for perment control, thats another story.

4: RPG are not realy accurate, nor are they very wealdy or rapidly reloaded. They also arent that common, infact in my entire 6+ years in the army I only saw 1 and that was a Russian one while I was in EOD school. 12 Guys in power armor firing very accurate MK19s (Bolters) vs 1000 guys w/RPGs? My moneys on the SM, though its likley everyone dies in that exchange.

Okay, I really hate how the quote function works on this forum. It's really hard to directly respond to specific points. So, the statements I wish to address in italics.

I still highly doubt a Rogue Trader could conquer a tier eight civilization such as Earth without destroying it. All those gigaton weapons described would most likely crack the planets crust and if not then poison the ecosystem, either through the distabilization they cause or the toxicity. This wouldn't simply be a ice age but the production of a dead or dieing world. Sure the Rogue Trader could throw everything he has at the world, but unless he's a puritan of unrelenting quality, something even rarer than the fleets many assume he has in his possession, he'd look for a less devastating method.

Gigaton level events won't crack the Earth's crust. The earth's crust is hundred of kilometers thick. Volcanic eruptions often hit the gigaton level of energy release. The dinosaur killer asteroid was in the teraton range.

However, your point (and mine) about a wasted planet being worthless still stands. He can, however, turn any battlefield into a charred wasteland rather easily.

I'd also like to address the grands idea that the Imperium is some futuristic land of science, where they understand things beyond our comprehension. No, most of the Imperium except for a very small elite such as Magos, have no idea how the things they operate work. In fact, one of the higher ranks in the Admech is a electropriest who is the equivalent of an electrician on Earth. Full blown enginseers are only knowelegable of the rites of matainence. The average Imperial tactician won't think in terms of statistics and instead base his decisions on what he has learned through experience, not knoweledge. He may use ten times the number of munitions required to destroy a target, because that's what he saw his former commander use while he was of inferior rank.

Not at all correct. Some of an electropriest's duties are equivalent of an electrition. Enginseers are capable of repairing the advanced technology of the future, a not at all trivial or easily acquired knowledge base. Simple maintenance rites are much more widely known.

The Imperium has an entire star spanning organization the Divisio Munitorum that is solely concerned with logistics. The Divisio Tactica is a part of the IG that full of purely tactical advisors. Most IG officers are educated, professional soldiers on their home worlds and are well aware of the effectiveness of their equipment (see every single Cain and Gaunt novel ever written).

Someone mentioned 12mm rifles beings the norm for autoguns and well I got some news for you. Unless the human and I stress this human user is using this anti-tank machinegun, then he'll probably break his wrist to say the least of all the chaos that occurs. Since the fluff compares browning machine guns with 12.7mm equal to heavy stubbers, why even mount them on tanks if every man can carry that much heat? Please lets not throwing physics out the window when citing fictional sources and asking for belief. In fact you can use all the magically hard metal armor you want but you'll still have to deal with the kinetics of a weapon or like the person who said Dragonskin was inferior, you'll be squished to jelly.

It's a sign of superior recoil countering technology, which is consistently displayed in 40Ks more advanced slug throwers and tanks. 12mm isn't the norm, but there are multiple examples of huge caliber autoguns being issued to IG regiments. There's even more extreme examples. Eisenhorn fires a round from his bolt pistol at point blank range which throws a cultist cybered into a spider like carriage arrangement weighing 250kilos off her feet ( Malleus ). I was the person who brought up Dragonskin doesn't magically negate momentum.

When people say the Rogue Trader could be crafty and trick Earth's governments against each other, I say they must be mistaking politicians for gibbering fools who can't tie their own shoes much less feed themselves. If a less advanced human civilization meets a superior one, hostility is immenent. While the Rogue Trader can try to make a deal with an individual nation, every other will undoubted be listening in. The response will be brutal and not even nations such as China or the United States can stand up against such an encompassing assault. In fact, instead of putting them against each other, the Rogue Trader will have united them. Even with the threat of total destruction, very few nations are not veterens of the Cold War, so they know what it is like to have such a thing looming over them with every turn. They will recognize their very human enemy for what he is, a conquerer and to what use is a shattered world to one who seeks plunder? The Rogue Trader's next act will either be to innate small trades, with heavy oversight by all the member nations, with UN. With time he may gain trust, but once he begins talk of absorption of Earth and domination by the Imperium, all this will wither. He may not return for many years, but by then, Earth will be prepared and will have their guns aimed at the sky. Not even a titan can withstand multiple hydrogen bombs .

We can nuke them on the ground, but chemically powered rockets aren't going to be able to even catch them in space, let alone pierce their defences in numbers that matter. Your point about the Rogue Trader potentially being a uniting force is quite on topic. The Rogue Trader can kill any army, slag any nation. He does not, unless he's got something like the Haarlock Warrant, have the numbers to occupy a large hostile nation.

On a final note I seem to remember this post being on how a Rogue Trader could conquer an Earth like civilization. I have never scene any indication that such a explorer has access to the Mechanicus's most potent weapon, the Titans, or him having legions of Imperial Guardsmen, heaven forbide Space Marines. Sure the most well off Rogue Traders might have a dozen Space Marines at their disposal, but only if they are pious and have performed a great deed for the Chapter. People forget that they are looters in their highest form at heart, and every soul they carry on their vessels detracts from the profit they gain. The fluff says a Imperial Navy cruiser can only carry a few thousand crew and even fewer passengers such as foot soldiers. A Rogue Trader might carry even less because he has to pay to maintain his vessel and can't rely on the masses to fund him through tribute. He'll hardly be lugging massive warmachines around the cosmos if he has to make a deadline. [

Imperial Cruisers frequently carry crews of 10,000 or more and can transport as many soldiers ( Execution Hour ). Think about how big a 3km+ starship (should a Rogue Trader be fortunate enough to possess such a vessel) is. Compare a modern naval vessel and then scale up the size (and remember, 3 dimensions so being ten times as wide, long, and high is a thousand times as much volumen). A Rogue Trader will want all the manpower he can manage. He's going to lose them all the time to simple things like routine shipboard accidents, let alone boarding and combat. He's operating at a level of trade monopolies, vast holdings, and planetary governerships. He's not a Chartist captain on a deadline. He's a oldstyle privateer/explorer going out into the uknown.

If you want an example of armies then there is the Haarlock warrant which grants the right to levy armies and fleets (with certain conditions). Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus have their own interests in unexplored regions and might join a Rogue Trader in a mutually beneficial arrangement.

PS. How many RPG's do we have on this planet? How rare is a bolter? One billion soldiers with RPGs and heavy vehicular suport(Abraham Tanks/Raptor Fighters) vs. one thousand Rogue Trader goons with bolters and light vehicles(chimeras/land speeders). Who do you think will win?[

Those fighter bases? Hammered from the sky. That mass of tanks? Lanced into vapor. That mass of soldiers? Dead. You can't mass against someone who can and will do that, and in fact, must do that or lose the battle because they don't have enough troops. You go guerrilla. Kill a sentry here or there. Ambush convoys. Sneak attack bases. You can trade ten for one or a hundred for one and come out on top if you do it that way.

Just a final thought on this - most of the technology the Imperium would supposedly deploy isn't physically possible and I am not talking exotic field effects and new energy weapons. Titans are utterly impossible, there are no materials strong enough to build them, their feet are nowhere near large enough to take their weight, so they would sink to the hip in even a steel floor (well, slight hyperbole there but they really would sink into it just you would into a swamp), the oversized tanks are just as impossible for much the same reasons - too much ground pressure and built on a scale that exceed the properties of any material, certainly any metal. Unobtainium won't really save you here, although you can save some aspect of the designs by postulating that some material has been found which allows them to be built, the overall design exceeds what is possible according to some fundamental physical laws, even allowing for new materials which push the very limit of possibility.

WH40K is a fantasy game and trying to measure fantasy people and weapons against reality doesn't work or make a lot of sense, the US Army isn't as 'bad-ass' as all that even compared to other armies in the world (people like to joke about the French but they are the most militarily successful nation in the developed world, even with things like the two world wars and the Napoleonic conflicts taken into account) but the level of general education and specialist training is way beyond what the canon Imperial Guards have and guardsmen are not encouraged to innovate or use their initiative, in fact that idea is perilously close to heresy, whereas modern armed forces try to train those qualities in their members. The WH40K universe would simply not work, on so many levels, that it's silly to even have this discussion; just take it at face value and enjoy it for the fantasy game that it is.