More to a point think of a Capitol weapon battery. A ship with a very large power source but a poor hit ratio. A special die with an additional crit and 1 less evade rolling 2 die means when it hits it has a better chance at a crit but a poorer hit potential with only 2 die.

Without adding new types of dice, a turbolaser could roll 3 dice to attack, turn 1 hit result into a critical hit, with small ships gaining 1 defense die.

Yeah that would definitely work..

Seriously you Guys think adding multiple special rules that people need to keep track of for every time they fire at a different ship or get hit by a different ship is less complex then rolling a purple die when u see a purple number? You honestly can't be serious no one needs a 10 page rule book to play this game. Keep it simple

It's easier and more fun just rolling dice. Then saying ok my Capitol ship is shooting at your x wing so that's an extra evade and it's firing at your falcon that's 1 less. Wait I rolled a focus that gets turned into a hit but the rules say one hit is turned. Into a crit but since I didn't roll a hit its not turned into a crit. Seriously no one needs unnecessary rules it's worse then a different colored die that can easily be seen and played by any 6 year old. Keep it simple.

Seriously you Guys think adding multiple special rules that people need to keep track of for every time they fire at a different ship or get hit by a different ship is less complex then rolling a purple die when u see a purple number? You honestly can't be serious no one needs a 10 page rule book to play this game. Keep it simple

It's easier and more fun just rolling dice. Then saying ok my Capitol ship is shooting at your x wing so that's an extra evade and it's firing at your falcon that's 1 less. Wait I rolled a focus that gets turned into a hit but the rules say one hit is turned. Into a crit but since I didn't roll a hit its not turned into a crit. Seriously no one needs unnecessary rules it's worse then a different colored die that can easily be seen and played by any 6 year old. Keep it simple.

Yeah that's why I like it, The nice thing is every pack has 2 or 3 versions of a ship that has no text at all. When you get going you can select any ship, take the basic pilot and just play with it no need to read any rules at all. Having a ship with a purple dice and a big purple number under the attack is so easy play it really needs no explaination.. Look a purple dice came with this ship.. oh there is a purple number under Attack.

Im in for a simpler version of a dice I already presented to you:

blank

blank

blank

blank

crit

crit

crit

crit

make it a coin with

blank

crit

much more fun to flip and easier to pack it into the boosters

yeah not sure on that dice.. I was just thinking one blank swapped for a crit... but all the other sides the same.

too bad FFG don't came up with some kind of a dark force die for vader (black) and a force die for Luke (white) ^^

Im in for a simpler version of a dice I already presented to you:

blank

blank

blank

blank

crit

crit

crit

crit

make it a coin with

blank

crit

much more fun to flip and easier to pack it into the boosters

Coins... now that is intriguing. At first I imagined plastic coins, but coins made out of the usual token fiberboard (or whatever it is) would work just as well.

I have been playing this game and reading this forum since they released this game, but I have never felt the need to comment until I read this thread.

The beauty of this game is its balance and simplicity. Even with the release of wave 3 ships, the wave 1 ships are still competitive and able to win games. A super ship that gets special dice, that have higher hit chances and more criticals, will unbalance the game and kill diversity. All tournaments will devolve down to players fielding 2 TIE Defenders vs their opponents 2 TIE Defenders.

I think a balanced TIE Defender can, and should be built. But, if a super munchkin ship is developed I'll be skipping it and not playing with anyone who flys one.

I have been playing this game and reading this forum since they released this game, but I have never felt the need to comment until I read this thread.

The beauty of this game is its balance and simplicity. Even with the release of wave 3 ships, the wave 1 ships are still competitive and able to win games. A super ship that gets special dice, that have higher hit chances and more criticals, will unbalance the game and kill diversity. All tournaments will devolve down to players fielding 2 TIE Defenders vs their opponents 2 TIE Defenders.

I think a balanced TIE Defender can, and should be built. But, if a super munchkin ship is developed I'll be skipping it and not playing with anyone who flys one.

You already have that situation, you have the Falcon, which has more damage, 360 arc, more hits than any other ship in the game. But you don't see Falcons everywhere as It's also the most expensive in the game. I think there was a single fleet that had a YT-1300 in the final 16 at worlds.. Better than every other ship is not an issue if correctly pointed, there is always going to be a ship with the best stats.

I would argue that the BEST most overpowered ship in the game at the moment is the Academy Pilot, and that is also the worse ship statwise and cheapest ship in the game.

I personally hope the Defender is very powerful and very expensive. I don't mind only having 2 ships as long as 2 ships is balanced against 8 ties.

This all leads to a more complex game - which does not mean its also more fun.

Totally agree. The game needs to stay simplistic.

Forgive me if I missed something, maybe it was in another thread, but why does the Defender need special dice? It has the same number, and model of laser cannons that the Interceptor has, and those are less powerful than the X-wings lasers. So what makes the defender special in that it needs more than 3 red dice?

Personally I don't think that FFG is going to release the defender anytime soon. Opinions vary greatly about the stats, cost, dial, and balance of the meta, and no matter what they do, somebody is going to be unhappy about it. People are pumping it unnecessarily like the special dice idea here, or undervaluing it like someone giving it an agility of 2 in another thread. I'm not saying it won't ever be released, but it's a volatile situation because opinions are strong on either side, and there are some that would leave this game depending on how FFG handles this.

Forgive me if I missed something, maybe it was in another thread, but why does the Defender need special dice? It has the same number, and model of laser cannons that the Interceptor has, and those are less powerful than the X-wings lasers. So what makes the defender special in that it needs more than 3 red dice?

Well it had quad lasers + 2 Ion cannons underneath. so it has got better armament than the X-Wing, but in this game those Ion cannons would be seperated and become a Cannon upgrade slot. I agree that it should be 3.

Saying that I'm not against a new dice as it would open up a lot of new ideas. Just think the Defender doesn't need it.

Personally I don't think that FFG is going to release the defender anytime soon. Opinions vary greatly about the stats, cost, dial, and balance of the meta, and no matter what they do, somebody is going to be unhappy about it. People are pumping it unnecessarily like the special dice idea here, or undervaluing it like someone giving it an agility of 2 in another thread. I'm not saying it won't ever be released, but it's a volatile situation because opinions are strong on either side, and there are some that would leave this game depending on how FFG handles this.

I feel opinions are strong, and there has been so much discussion because people care about the ship. I think that makes it the more likely to be released than other ships like the Skipray, or even the Outrider where people are less vocal. People are only arguing because they care, and if people care about a ship they are more likely to buy it than a ship they don't care about.

The TIE Defender (if and when it comes out) should be able to match the X-Wing and TIE Interceptor in firepower, so it would seem that 3 attack dice sounds correct, at the minimum. Adding a 4th die seems to be too much. Adding a special die can sway the hit % a bit higher than a standard 3 dice attack. Assuming each facing of the die is a single hit or crit, we're still regulated to a maximum of 3 hits at range 2 and 3, and 4 hits at range 1.

One individual mentioned, "create a special attack die with 1 less blank and 1 more crit because I feel crits and the damage deck are under utilized." Another mentioned 4 crits and 4 blanks. I think both have their merits, as long as it were just a single die. As for packaging it, I doubt we would need to see a dice pack (of 6) come out just to acquire 1 or 2 of these. Inserting 1 with a ship that is going to use it would make more sense. Pricing would probably be 1.00 more. A flip of that crit / blank coin (make it acrylic) is a cool idea too.

Looks like adding the ion effects through a die roll got shot down. Any ideas of implementing linked fire (4 lasers and 2 ion guns) to any and all TIE Defenders on the field? I realize that it can be done with a card (why add a card to all TIE Defenders if it is standard), but the randomization of being ionized from a standard attack was creative way of doing it.

I have to question whether or not adding some new die would really add any fun, new, strategic elements to the game. It just seems like a very primitive way to alter the dice dynamic that we currently have. I would much rather FFG continues to tilt dice odds with actions (e.g., Target Lock) and upgrades (e.g., Sensor Jammer) rather than by directly altering dice.

There might be some interesting things you could do with a Defender, though. Maybe it could perform 2 attacks in the Combat Phase. The first attack is a primary attack of 3 dice, and the 2nd attack is some sub-class of secondary weapons that you can equip on the Defender. For example, one secondary weapon could be a Secondary Ion Cannon which employs the same rules as the regular Ion Cannon, but with the SIC you only get 2 attack dice. There could be ways to balance this. Perhaps Defenders would be expensive in terms of squad points, or perhaps the SIC would require an action to use.

This way the Defender can attack with a total of 5 dice, but it's split over two attacks, both of which have different effects (one does damage, the other ionizes). This would make the Defender stronger against ships with lower Agility (like B-Wings), while higher Agility ships (like A-Wings) would have less to fear. I think something like this could be fun and interesting.

That being said, I'm not looking forward to a Defender release. The ship looks like an Interceptor with a birth defect.

I feel that the balance of the game comes from the use of the maximum attack dice total for conventional weaponry being 3. For example: The X-wing and TIE/in both have 4 cannons but only three dice. Also, The Falcon has 2 quad laser cannon turrets. This is four more than any other ship in the game and it still gets the same three dice as the X-wing and the TIE/in.

No special dice. No crazy rules that create bickering over the internet.

I foresee the Defender coming out with stats that placate those who are calling for a maneuverable version of the X-wing. I will surmise that the defender will be much more like 3/3/3/2 with the option of adding on the Ion cannon like a B-wing as well as taking a proton torpedo. It will be more expensive for base pilots, think 22~24 points for a skill level two or so. Even Outer Rim Smuggler is 27 points after reducing his hull/shield and shooting values.

I believe new dice do not groove well with what we have going on here and for those who hold out for some Imperial wunderweapon to destroy all Rebel comers I find your lack of balance, disturbing.

How about this?
We define a mark where we keep a current iteration of the rule set. Anything after that becomes Expanded rules.

For Tournament play, separate into 2 distinct groups.
Core rules and Expanded rules.

This way, purists can keep their dogfighting strategy game, and the folks who want capital ships/big bang dice and wild maneuver templates can have their fun.

Really I think this is the spirit of this discussion...

There are those of us who want to keep things as they are, and a group who yearns for something new.

There's no reason this community, and Fantasy Flight Games can't do both.

Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to trying or even collecting new ships and rules... I'd just like to see tournament play where the current iteration of rules stays as is, for the sake of the current feel and play of the game.

Ugh, no. No ship needs this kind of special treatment.

Just because the ship DID have something doesn't mean it SHOULD have it for gameplay purposes. Give it a cannon slot like the B-Wing. Done. It has Ion? Great - it can pay for an Ion. Or a heavy laser. The B-wing doesn't come with built-in HLC, and torpedoes, and Ion, and Autoblaster, just because they're in the specs. The Y-Wing has to pay for the turret that you can clearly see mounted on it. The Shuttle has to buy the APL, even though the model obviously has some kind of rear-facing lasers.

You want to give the Imperials a Rebel style ship, with better base stats, shields, higher cost, access to more upgrades? Great. When you start talking about adding new game mechanics or giving the ship it's own special dice, you're overthinking it.

This reminds me on D&D - the board game. This game had 4 different attack dice, yellow, orange, red and purple. The darker the colour, the more devastating results could be generated. I think the red dice was the most chaoic one with blanks and triple hits...

If FFG had introduced different dice UPFRONT it would be a nice discussion about which one are the best for what ships ...

But there aren't different attack or defence dice and FFG will not introduce any additional for the costs and the risks to ruin the game are high and the turnover is low. The discussions about different dice are tedious and fruitless.

I agree. I don't think there's any sense in completely revamping one of the core mechanics of the game to accommodate one ship that Imperial players seem a bit obsessed with. There are plenty of mechanics already in the game to make it more of a Rebel style ship without inventing new toys for it and making it some super ship.

I agree. I don't think there's any sense in completely revamping one of the core mechanics of the game to accommodate one ship that Imperial players seem a bit obsessed with. There are plenty of mechanics already in the game to make it more of a Rebel style ship without inventing new toys for it and making it some super ship.

Especially when we have the example of the B-Wing (the Defender's counterpart in terms of weaponry) already published. I am honestly surprised that so many of these rule alteration suggestions have been connected to the Defender, which I feel fits perfectly into the existing system.

And I say this as a long-time Defender fan.

Agree again. There's a pretty clear precedent for making things available to a ship without just working them all into it right from the get-go. Just about every weapons system beyond main guns on every ship in the game, really.

I'm all for giving the Imperials a Pimp My Ride-able superiority fighter more akin to what the Rebels get. If nothing else, a shiny toy might convince more of them to fly something other than swarms. I think it would be hilarious if the Imps got this and the Rebels got something like the Z-95 where they COULD run something akin to a swarm, and the two metas kind of reversed themselves a bit.

But I think it's 100% possible to do so within the context of the rules. If it's got a tractor beam or something that needs to be added as a new mechanic, that's one thing. But trying to overload it with every system built right into the cost or creating special dice just for it or something is completely unnecessary. As Joker said, the B-Wing gives us a pretty clear blueprint for how to tackle that kind of upgrade heavy ship.