After reading "TIE Defender Values" and "New Dice idea" threads, I believe something between the 2 could be worked out into a single package. The blister would include a TIE Defender and 3 special attack dice. This of course assumes that FFG adds the TIE Defender in an upcoming wave release.

The values displayed on each die would be:

blank
focus
focus
focus
hit
hit
hit / ionized*
critical

* ionized would mean that the target is now under the affects of being ionized, but suffers no damage from the hit. Only one ionized result is used with other ionized results converted to hits. This would show the TIE Defender occasionally hitting with linked lasers and ion cannons.

In addition, allow pilots with an elite talent be able to purchase 1 of these die at a cost of 3 points to replace one of their standard attack die. The power creep of generating an additional hit is slightly greater by adding a focus over a blank, but not overly by adding an additional hit / critical. The ionized result would obviously be a standard hit (or maybe when used with an ion cannon attack, the target could receive 2 ionized counters?).

The TIE Defender debate of 3 or 4 attack dice and adding a cannon slot could now be resolved by giving an attack value of 3, using the special attack dice. A fourth dice would be needed for a range 1 attack, so either include it in the package or make us buy a second TIE Defender. At range 2 and 3, a TIE Defender has a very good chance of generating 3 hits a majority of the time, but it is not a guarantee.

Humor me with your thoughts.

I don't exactly like the ion hit idea. I'd rather just keep the ion cannon upgrade as is.
Also, where you mention a target getting two ionizations, it wouldn't do anything as all ion tokens are removed at the end of the turn they take affect on, unless I'm mistaken.

I don't exactly like the ion hit idea. I'd rather just keep the ion cannon upgrade as is.

Also, where you mention a target getting two ionizations, it wouldn't do anything as all ion tokens are removed at the end of the turn they take affect on, unless I'm mistaken.

They're removed after the ship makes its ion move, I believe. Though, 2 ionizations are required to get the effect on a large ship, so there's some utility there.

I don't exactly like the ion hit idea. I'd rather just keep the ion cannon upgrade as is.

Also, where you mention a target getting two ionizations, it wouldn't do anything as all ion tokens are removed at the end of the turn they take affect on, unless I'm mistaken.

Large ships require two ion tokens to suffer the normal effects of being ionized.

'ed

Right, completely forgot about large ships...Still, I think this dice thing might not work out so well. I'd rather see a defender-only modification where it could use it's action to roll an extra die. I don't think it's quite so OP without the focus/TL, but it can still have that extra fire power.

So, adding 3 dice to a package. How much do you think that will add to the price? And why should I get saddled with extra dice just because I want more ships? And why in the world should they just be able to be added to other ships?

I'm not against the concept of different dice. But, so few are actually thinking about how to actually implement it. Specialized dice for specific weapon system types is fine. But it really shouldn't be mixed in with ships that aren't designed for those systems or upgrades.

I really don't see why you'd need a modified die to represent the TIE Defender, or any other ship for that matter. One of the virtues of X-Wing is its simplicity and abstraction. The X-Wing and TIE Interceptor have the same quad-linked laser cannons (Firepower 3), the target lock action represents advanced targeting systems, and a cannon upgrade would allow for ion effects.

This breaks two precedents. First is altering the way in which ion weapons work. The second is using dice to do a card's job.

Why not give one pilot a special ability that applies an ion token and cancels damage if the attack hits? Well, that's because Ion Cannon upgrades already do that.

The values displayed on each die would be:

blank

focus

focus

focus

hit

hit

hit / ionized*

critical

Humor me with your thoughts.

So only 1 blank and 3 focus on the special (black) Defender dices?

This sounds like: I focus - I can't lose.

How about this:

The TIE Defender gets an additional single dice that looks like this:

blank

blank

blank

blank

crit

crit

crit

crit

The values displayed on each die would be:

blank

focus

focus

focus

hit

hit

hit / ionized*

critical

Humor me with your thoughts.

So only 1 blank and 3 focus on the special (black) Defender dices?

This sounds like: I focus - I can't lose.

How about this:

The TIE Defender gets an additional single dice that looks like this:

blank

blank

blank

blank

crit

crit

crit

crit

I hope this wasn't a serious idea...

The only reason i see special dice needed would be for the "capital" ships, and that's only because they go above and beyond the normal scope of the game.

if you start adding special dice to what would be considered a standard fielded ship as part of a 100 pt squad, you are now treading in dangerous waters. You essentially break the base foundation of the game that all ships have been balanced against.

IMHO, special dice should have been in the game at it's inception and not as an after-thought to help introduce new ships.

You could say that about a lot of things though. Boosts weren't in the game at the start, 360 and rear arcs on ships weren't, large bases weren't, modifications and titles were not.

If you remove everything that has been added on top of the core game.. you have.. well the core game.

They aren't necessary, but new dice could be added, they would alter how ships feel quite well without upping the complexity of the game. It's not hard to read an attack that says 1 + 1 and understand it means one red and one purple dice. It could make certain ships less likely to hit, but more likely to critical, or less good if they don't have the focus and all kinds of things without adding huge amounts of rules. Just add a dice to their pack and print it in their attack value.

You could say that about a lot of things though. Boosts weren't in the game at the start, 360 and rear arcs on ships weren't, large bases weren't, modifications and titles were not.

If you remove everything that has been added on top of the core game.. you have.. well the core game.

Correct, however they are just abilities that ships have received. It's very possible those abilities were conceptualized at the creation of the game, and were reserved for ships that deserved it. Which i supposed could be said for a new die as well? *shrug*

My point on the die was that currently the dice are mainly used to either hit something or avoid getting hit. Once you start adding in "better" dice that achieve these goals more effectively, what is the point in going back to the way it was before? Personally, that's where i think you start to break down the base.

Sure, you can give a ship a Boost, or a Bomb, or a Barrel Roll, but they still use the same dice when attacking and defending...and the pilot (IE you the player) still has to get the ship into the correct positioning to make it all effective. If you add in new hotness Ship-X that can do what other ships can do AND has better dice to attack / defend with...i just think that's starting to step past the bounds. Once you step past the bounds in that way, you are forever playing catch-up trying to balance yourself out again.

Don't get me wrong, i am a fan of the Defender and wish to see it in the game. I just don't think you need a "special" die to get there is all.

You could say that about a lot of things though. Boosts weren't in the game at the start, 360 and rear arcs on ships weren't, large bases weren't, modifications and titles were not.

If you remove everything that has been added on top of the core game.. you have.. well the core game.

Correct, however they are just abilities that ships have received. It's very possible those abilities were conceptualized at the creation of the game, and were reserved for ships that deserved it. Which i supposed could be said for a new die as well? *shrug*

Boost and different arcs maybe... Modifications feel very tacked on. But I don't think it should matter what they thought at inception. Sometimes adding stuff later after you see how people play stuff is better, not always but sometimes.

My point on the die was that currently the dice are mainly used to either hit something or avoid getting hit. Once you start adding in "better" dice that achieve these goals more effectively, what is the point in going back to the way it was before? Personally, that's where i think you start to break down the base.

Sure, you can give a ship a Boost, or a Bomb, or a Barrel Roll, but they still use the same dice when attacking and defending...and the pilot (IE you the player) still has to get the ship into the correct positioning to make it all effective. If you add in new hotness Ship-X that can do what other ships can do AND has better dice to attack / defend with...i just think that's starting to step past the bounds. Once you step past the bounds in that way, you are forever playing catch-up trying to balance yourself out again.

But who says they have to be used to make better ships.. Lets say you have a ship that is more effective than a HWK, but not as good as a Y-Wing... at the moment all you have is 1 red or 2 red... if you had something better than a red, lets say a purple dice, you could give it 1 purple. You are seeing the end of the spectrum and going why would we every use red dice if we have purple.. I'm seeing us having a scale from rubbish to good... 1 red -> 2 red -> 3 red is very granular what do you do if you want a ship that isn't as good as an X-Wing but better than a Y-Wing at attacking? a dice with one of the misses swapped for a crit for example would give you a scale from rubbish to good of 1 red -> 1 purple -> 2 red -> 1 red + 1 purple -> 2 purple -> 3 red -> 2 red + 1 purple -> 1 red + 2 purple -> 3 purple.

It just gives them far more ability to vary Attack values than they have at the moment, which go from 1-Rubbish 2-OK 3-Good 4-OP ...

There is also a lot to be said about the difference between more dice which gives the chance of more possible hits, and less dice which are more likely to hit which still have the same max value.

Don't get me wrong, i am a fan of the Defender and wish to see it in the game. I just don't think you need a "special" die to get there is all.

On the subject of the Defender I don't think it needs a dice though... It's got quad lazers + a cannon system in the fluff.

You could say that about a lot of things though. Boosts weren't in the game at the start, 360 and rear arcs on ships weren't, large bases weren't, modifications and titles were not.

If you remove everything that has been added on top of the core game.. you have.. well the core game.

Correct, however they are just abilities that ships have received. It's very possible those abilities were conceptualized at the creation of the game, and were reserved for ships that deserved it. Which i supposed could be said for a new die as well? *shrug*

Boost and different arcs maybe... Modifications feel very tacked on. But I don't think it should matter what they thought at inception. Sometimes adding stuff later after you see how people play stuff is better, not always but sometimes.

My point on the die was that currently the dice are mainly used to either hit something or avoid getting hit. Once you start adding in "better" dice that achieve these goals more effectively, what is the point in going back to the way it was before? Personally, that's where i think you start to break down the base.

Sure, you can give a ship a Boost, or a Bomb, or a Barrel Roll, but they still use the same dice when attacking and defending...and the pilot (IE you the player) still has to get the ship into the correct positioning to make it all effective. If you add in new hotness Ship-X that can do what other ships can do AND has better dice to attack / defend with...i just think that's starting to step past the bounds. Once you step past the bounds in that way, you are forever playing catch-up trying to balance yourself out again.

Don't get me wrong, i am a fan of the Defender and wish to see it in the game. I just don't think you need a "special" die to get there is all.

But who says they have to be used to make better ships.. Lets say you have a ship that is more effective than a HWK, but not as good as a Y-Wing... at the moment all you have is 1 red or 2 red... if you had something better than a red, lets say a purple dice, you could give it 1 purple. You are seeing the end of the spectrum and going why would we every use red dice if we have purple.. I'm seeing us having a scale from rubbish to good... 1 red -> 2 red -> 3 red is very granular what do you do if you want a ship that isn't as good as an X-Wing but better than a Y-Wing at attacking? a dice with one of the misses swapped for a crit for example would give you a scale from rubbish to good of 1 red -> 1 purple -> 2 red -> 1 red + 1 purple -> 2 purple -> 3 red -> 2 red + 1 purple -> 1 red + 2 purple -> 3 purple.

It just gives them far more ability to vary Attack values than they have at the moment, which go from 1-Rubbish 2-OK 3-Good 4-OP ...

On the subject of the Defender I don't think it needs a dice though... It's got quad lazers + a cannon system in the fluff.

What you are stating is already accomplished either through Pilot Abilities or Elite Pilot Skills, and doesn't require a different colored die.

Maybe i just view the game through different eyes, so we can agree to disagree on the die. Personally, i would rather roll more dice, then substitute those dice for fewer dice that are potentially "better".

Otherwise, i think the game would have been...

Range 1 - Roll Purple die (instead of +1 red die)

Range 2 - nothing

Range 3 - Roll Blue die (instead of +1 green die)

Assuming Purple is the "new" attack, and Blue is the "new" defend.

Yep similar can be accomplished through abilities, but ships DON'T have abilities. And that is the point. If they want vary the Attack of a ship to anything other than 1, 2 or 3 red dice Either they would have to give the ship an Ability which would mean ships with Pilots have 2 abilities, or add something like an alternative dice which could be represented as a stat.

The problem with rolling more dice is things get quickly out of hand rolling 4 dice up from 3 costs 7 points at the moment (for HLC) and people pay it because 3>4 is that much better.

That's for an HLC. if my X-Wing gets in range 1, that's 4 dice. If my Interceptor gets in range 1, that's 4 dice. YT-1300 (not ORS), and so on and so on...and i didn't need to do add anything extra to do it.

if you want to look at it from a monetary standpoint, custom dice cost the consumer about 1.00 - 1.50 more per die. Would you be willing to spend an extra 5 bucks to cut down on the number of dice you are rolling currently? I wouldn't...

We wet through a lot on the other thread before worlds took some steam. Time to revisit.

Don't like the ion idea.

One of the focuses on the other thread was how to not make focus the obvious action while still creating viable more accurate dice. It's a hard line, especially with only a d8 to work with. Some people called out a expansion to a d10.

I like the dice upgrade and am testing some of it in a home campaign. But let's all get back town at would work without unbalancing the system.

Would I be willing pay an extra dollar on a ship if it needed a different dice. YEP

But it's not just to roll less dice. 3 dice can only ever roll 3 hits, 4 dice can roll 4. A better dice shifts the probability curve but doesn't change the Max. The issue with having a primary value of 4 is that at close range that can give you 5 hits that is 1 shotting a lot of things in the game. Going from 3 base to 4 is a huge change.

This all leads to a more complex game - which does not mean its also more fun.

This all leads to a more complex game - which does not mean its also more fun.

almost all of the statistics and complexity is hidden. It very easy to look at the stat and go, I need 1 red and 1 purple dice and roll. If the other option to add ship variety is to add special rules to get a similar effect, I think a new dice is a more elegant and simple solution.

If they are going to do 30 ships (which they have stated) they are going to need to make them all distinct enough, and to do this I think they will need to add something.

But who says they have to be used to make better ships.. Lets say you have a ship that is more effective than a HWK, but not as good as a Y-Wing... at the moment all you have is 1 red or 2 red...

I see what you mean, but what are examples of ships that would really need that kind of distinction? Especially considering the Star Wars universe is not prone to giving consistent and exact technical data.

Firepower 3: Any vessel with strong and/or numerous conventional weaponry (3+ medium laser cannons).

- Existing: X-Wing, B-Wing, TIE Interceptor

- Theoretical: E-Wing, TIE Avenger, TIE Defender

Firepower 2: Any vessel with moderate and/or limited conventional weaponry (2 light or medium laser cannons).

- Existing: Y-Wing, A-Wing, TIE Fighter, TIE Advanced, TIE Bomber

- Theoretical: Z-95 Headhunter, Starviper, Cloakshape, Combat Cloud Car, T-47 Airspeeder

Firepower 1: Any vessel with weak and/or minimal conventional weaponry (1 light laser cannon or 1+ repeating blasters).

- Existing: HWK-290

- Theoretical: TIE Vanguard, K-Wing (discounting turrets),

There is no need to empower focus anymore then it already is. Most people already focus over most other actions.

Secondly I rather they just create a special atk die with 1 less blank and 1 more crit because I feel crits and the damage deck are under utilized. U don't need to add 3 special die to the tie defender just keep it at 1 purple die. And give it a value if 2/1 with the number 2 in red and 1 in purple. Representing that ships improved las cannons. Keep it simple!!!

The only ships I would like to see with 3 special purple die atks with a much higher crit chance are Capitol ship weapon batteries because they have a much larger power source.

But who says they have to be used to make better ships.. Lets say you have a ship that is more effective than a HWK, but not as good as a Y-Wing... at the moment all you have is 1 red or 2 red...

I see what you mean, but what are examples of ships that would really need that kind of distinction? Especially considering the Star Wars universe is not prone to giving consistent and exact technical data.

Firepower 3: Any vessel with strong and/or numerous conventional weaponry (3+ medium laser cannons).

- Existing: X-Wing, B-Wing, TIE Interceptor

- Theoretical: E-Wing, TIE Avenger, TIE Defender

Firepower 2: Any vessel with moderate and/or limited conventional weaponry (2 light or medium laser cannons).

- Existing: Y-Wing, A-Wing, TIE Fighter, TIE Advanced, TIE Bomber

- Theoretical: Z-95 Headhunter, Starviper, Cloakshape, Combat Cloud Car, T-47 Airspeeder

Firepower 1: Any vessel with weak and/or minimal conventional weaponry (1 light laser cannon or 1+ repeating blasters).

- Existing: HWK-290

- Theoretical: TIE Vanguard, K-Wing (discounting turrets),

More to a point think of a Capitol weapon battery. A ship with a very large power source but a poor hit ratio. A special die with an additional crit and 1 less evade rolling 2 die means when it hits it has a better chance at a crit but a poorer hit potential with only 2 die.

More to a point think of a Capitol weapon battery. A ship with a very large power source but a poor hit ratio. A special die with an additional crit and 1 less evade rolling 2 die means when it hits it has a better chance at a crit but a poorer hit potential with only 2 die.

Without adding new types of dice, a turbolaser could roll 3 dice to attack, turn 1 hit result into a critical hit, with small ships gaining 1 defense die.