How epic phase and responses work

By Miklos, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

I wondered on the following:

Epic phase events create opportunity for all players to initiate one challenge.

There is no Action window before the first challenge in epic phase, right? And also no action window between the challenges. Because the event itself does not create additional action windows.

Also when the last player doing the challenge, there is no possibility to use Responses at that time (as that is the end of the phase and "at the end of the phase" does not allow Responses). It means in case of military challenge, no saves are allowed.

Am I right?

Not quite. I think you might be extending the concept of "no action windows" a bit too far. The layout of an Epic phase is as follows:

1. Framework 1: Phase Begins (just like any other "beginning of the phase" framework window, including the opportunity to bring cards out of Shadows). First player becomes "Active Player."

2. Framework 2: Active Player initiates his challenge (declare type, identify/kneel attackers).

3. Player Action 1: Players take turns performing "Epic" or "Any Phase" actions.

4. Framework 3: Declare defense (Active Player assigns stealth targets, defending player identifies/kneels defenders).

5. Player Action 2: Players take turns performing "Epic" or "Any Phase" actions.

6. Framework 4: Resolve challenge (determine winner, settle claim, award unopposed, award renown).

7. Framework 5: Pass "Active Player" status and return to "Framework 2." If all players have been the active player, skip this step.

8. Framework 6: Phase Ends (just like any other "end of phase" framework window. No Responses here.)

So, with that in mind, you can see that there are opportunities for player actions - but they are always going to be during one challenge or another.

Further, remember that Responses take place as part of both framework and player action windows. You can use appropriate responses in any of the above steps except #8, the end of the phase. So, since resolving claim happens has part of #6 (Framework 4), there is nothing stopping you from using a Response to save a character that dies as part of claim.

Hope that helps. The Epic phase can be a little confusing because the instinct is to map it out the same as the challenge phase, but there are some key differences which make the Epic Phase even more limited than a "1 challenge each" challenge phase.

Not quite. I think you might be extending the concept of "no action windows" a bit too far. The layout of an Epic phase is as follows:

1. Framework 1: Phase Begins (just like any other "beginning of the phase" framework window, including the opportunity to bring cards out of Shadows). First player becomes "Active Player."

2. Framework 2: Active Player initiates his challenge (declare type, identify/kneel attackers).

3. Player Action 1: Players take turns performing "Epic" or "Any Phase" actions.

4. Framework 3: Declare defense (Active Player assigns stealth targets, defending player identifies/kneels defenders).

5. Player Action 2: Players take turns performing "Epic" or "Any Phase" actions.

6. Framework 4: Resolve challenge (determine winner, settle claim, award unopposed, award renown).

7. Framework 5: Pass "Active Player" status and return to "Framework 2." If all players have been the active player, skip this step.

8. Framework 6: Phase Ends (just like any other "end of phase" framework window. No Responses here.)

So, with that in mind, you can see that there are opportunities for player actions - but they are always going to be during one challenge or another.

Further, remember that Responses take place as part of both framework and player action windows. You can use appropriate responses in any of the above steps except #8, the end of the phase. So, since resolving claim happens has part of #6 (Framework 4), there is nothing stopping you from using a Response to save a character that dies as part of claim.

Hope that helps. The Epic phase can be a little confusing because the instinct is to map it out the same as the challenge phase, but there are some key differences which make the Epic Phase even more limited than a "1 challenge each" challenge phase.

Thanks for the clarification. I have not found this description in the Rules or FAQ, that is why I ended up here :)

Not quite. I think you might be extending the concept of "no action windows" a bit too far. The layout of an Epic phase is as follows:..

Thanks for the clarification. I have not found this description in the Rules or FAQ, that is why I ended up here :)

You couldn't find them because they're not there. Everything mentioned by Ktom is playing convention. There is no established framework for an Epic Phase. It is a phase created by a card type that was not properly templated within the rules and as such is assumed to operate similar to a standard challenge phase. The only definite Framework Action in an Epic Phase is Shadows due to that FWA being established by the Shadows rules itself.

Just playing Devil's Advocate. Everyone will play it as Ktom has indicated.

Edited by mdc273

You say "playing convention" like it's a bad thing. There's no rule that say you take the top card of your House deck when you draw a card, so that's convention. There's no rule that says when you lose an intrigue challenge, the winning player gets to pick the (hidden) card from your hand, either. There are all sorts of conventions in this game.

That said, you seem to be using "convention" to imply that the above sequence for the Epic phase is far more random than reasoned. I don't think that's the case. All the puzzle pieces are there to be assembled:

- The card effects create an extra "phases"; therefore, it must start with a standard "begin phase" framework (including Shadows opportunities) and end with an "end phase" framework (including the "no Responses" restriction).

- Each player gets 1 challenge

- We know that the duration of a challenge starts with the "declare attackers" framework, proceeds to the "declare defenders" framework, and ends with the "resolve challenge" framework - and that those three frameworks alternate with player action windows.

- The tricky part here is remembering that the player action window before the first challenge (and each one between the resolution of the last challenge and the beginning of the next) is not part of any challenge itself, so it would not be included as part of "you get to declare a challenge."

- So every player gets to go through that 5-window sequence (framework-player-framework-player-framework) one time each, all sandwiched between the "begin" and "end" frameworks, which is what is outlined above.

Now, granted, it would have been nice if, when FFG revamped the flow charts in FAQ 4.0 (or whenever it was), they had put those pieces together in print for everyone. They could have saved themselves the trouble of people asking for clarification and confirmation on their logic coming up with that "anatomy of an Epic phase" for themselves, too. But just because they didn't does not mean that the "convention" is wrong, random, or somehow a less valid part of the game.

Nah, that's not my intent if it's coming across that way. I actually just use "playing convention" to distinguish between "definitely answered by something written in the FAQ or rules" and "not strictly answered by anything written in the FAQ or rules, but will be played as such if asked to a TO." Playing convention is just short-hand for me and I assume that a lot of people won't know what I mean by it and so tend to add in that it's how most TOs will rule it.