So, we've run a few combat encounters and we discovered that starfighters are very fragile. That would be ok if there were ways of avoiding getting hit. Alas, aside from evasive maneuvers, which only upgrade one dice there is no way of avoiding fire, no matter how good a pilot you happen to be. Unless I'm missing something?

And the second point: shields seems quite useless the way they are now - one or two black dice don't stop a lot of damage. Right or wrong?

This is not some video game where you can take gobs of damage and your enemies die like flies.

Shields just add a deflection bonus. kind of like sloped armor.

Use gain the advantage, or an aim manuver

Kill before being killed.

Good point regarding shields.

Otherwise... well...In my games I'm not looking for way to kill PCs, and I do understand it's not a video game. What I'm looking for is an enjoyable experience, also for those players, who want to play starfighter pilots. What's the point of doing all the push-ups if they can't lift a bloody log? (in sir Cain voice ). I mean - what's the point of spending all the xp on piloting and talents if what matters in the end is HT and armour of their ship?

Two fighters have 2purple of base attack difficulty. With evasive man. it can be upgraded to 1p1red. That's it - as opposed to a lot of yellows and greens that can be rolled to hit. No dodges, no sidesteps equivalents...

I'm thinking of making evasive man. a graded success - the more successes you dish out, the more dice you can upgrade...

Just so that it makes sense, "shields = black dice" are meant to defend against the chance to deal any Hull damage by hitting to begin with, Armor is what's supposed to stop damage that does "get through the shields".

Good point regarding shields.

Otherwise... well...In my games I'm not looking for way to kill PCs, and I do understand it's not a video game. What I'm looking for is an enjoyable experience, also for those players, who want to play starfighter pilots. What's the point of doing all the push-ups if they can't lift a bloody log? (in sir Cain voice ). I mean - what's the point of spending all the xp on piloting and talents if what matters in the end is HT and armour of their ship?

Two fighters have 2purple of base attack difficulty. With evasive man. it can be upgraded to 1p1red. That's it - as opposed to a lot of yellows and greens that can be rolled to hit. No dodges, no sidesteps equivalents...

I'm thinking of making evasive man. a graded success - the more successes you dish out, the more dice you can upgrade...

Take your opponent into something other than open space. Suddenly you both have to make piloting checks against terrain as well as each other. Now having those talents matter.

The best defense in vehicle combat is boosting initiative and shooting first.

Two fighters have 2purple of base attack difficulty. With evasive man. it can be upgraded to 1p1red. That's it - as opposed to a lot of yellows and greens that can be rolled to hit. No dodges, no sidesteps equivalents...

I doubt it will help much, but the Pilot has a talent called Defensive Driving that increases his ship's defense by 1.

Yeah... I'm just wondering why there are no talents like 'Vehicle Dodge'. About piloting near obstacles - yeah I get it. But sometimes (quite often?) space combat takes place deep in space. The ace fighters agree to a duel. And the one with a tougher ship wins...

It's like I'm hating the game (quite the contrary!) it just started bothering me. What was the reasoning behind it - just to make combat faster?

The pilot spec have brilliant evasion or some such named talent. That is pretty good, and there is another one there too, if not two.

But sometimes (quite often?) space combat takes place deep in space. The ace fighters agree to a duel. And the one with a tougher ship wins...

Well actually no, they don't, or shouldn't. Techinal limitations of computers and game consoles in the 90s combined with bad EU writers has had that occur in Star Wars more often then it should, but most space battles happen at locations of strategic or tactical significance.

You almost never just fight for the sake of fighting, you fight to capture/destroy/defend/ect something that you need to win the battle and/or war.

Space stations, giant orbital repair docks, lunar facilities,listening posts hidden within asteroid fields, smuggling hideouts made of a dozen old freighters precariously secured together with construction scaffolding, nebula gas mining operations, major hyperspace junctions filled with fueling stations commercial ships and navigational and communications relay stations and satellites.

Even in the movies space battles only once occur in open space. The rest of the time its in asteroid fields, planetary rings, on the gun covered surface of a space station or inside its superstructure, or in the midst of a massive raging space battle at a location of critical importance.

Mechanically this means that most checks made in space combat (especially things like piloting and gunnery) should have plenty of setback dice mixed in on a regular basis, not to mention difficulty increases and upgrades. If you are including all these that extra one or two black dice (you are angling ypur shields right?) from your ships shields can really add up.

When you run your combat as a proper encounter with all these effects you'll see that having a tougher craft is nice, but bonus dice for having a high handling, setback dice removed by skilled jockey, rerolls from natural pilot, and oh yeah all those skill proficiency dice, are going to make a bigger difference then a few extra hull points. And that not even factoring in player skill. Knowing when to gain the advantage, and when to not bother and just shoot makes a massive difference.

Defensive Driving = +1 to shield rating

Brilliant Evasion = avoid being targeted by 1 chosen opponent for X number of rounds

Tricky Target = reduce your silhouette sized when being targeted.

angle the deflector shield should be a no brainer

As mentioned above, do something other than empty space. Use other stellar features as mentioned on pg. 240 that could make more interesting dynamics.

Are your fighters using astrodroids to assist piloting, repairs, etc?

My question regarding shields is why does it list them in different facings of the ship? If there's no facing and you can angle all shield dice to whatever section of the ship that you want, what's the point in specifying which way they face? The only thing I can see is if you go early in initiative they won't have a chance to angle their shields to get more defensive setback dice against the initial attack(s).

My question regarding shields is why does it list them in different facings of the ship? If there's no facing and you can angle all shield dice to whatever section of the ship that you want, what's the point in specifying which way they face? The only thing I can see is if you go early in initiative they won't have a chance to angle their shields to get more defensive setback dice against the initial attack(s).

On Silhouette <5, the target gets to select which facing is attacked and uses the appropriate defense value. Successful use of the Gain the Advantage action allows the vessel with the advantage to select the facing for resolving the pilot's attacks (per RAW, it only applies to the pilot's attacks and it does not impair the other ship's ability to return fire). For Silhouette 5+, the defensive zone targeted is supposed to be determined by relative positioning, which sometimes causes problems in what is often a very abstracted combat system..

What Happy said.

The facing doesn't matter that often from a point in 3D space perspective. It matters from a tactical decision making perspective. I'm flying toward you. You angle deflectors to 2 front. When I get within weapons range I have to decide if its more valuable to just accept your higher defenses and open fire, or to risk a GtA check instead, which will take my action, might fail, or might be reversed by you next turn, but will let me target your rear which is now at 0 defenses if I can keep the advantage.

I totally agrees with Skie here. Spaceship battle is way to dangerous. Our first space-fight was in escape from mos shuuta where they say 2 or 4 tie-fighter depending on how many players. So i as GM thought, hey this is a instruction adventure so how hard can it be. Sent in 2 TIEs with 2 more to join in later to keep Control of the fight (so i thought).

However the 2 Tie-fighter totally ass-raped the krayt fang with their linked cannon. If i hadent "cheated" as GM the Campaign would have ended right there. Dash a fair pilot, oskara with 1 or was it 2 skillrank in gunnery and then Another player (mercenary Soldier with also with gunnery) didnt stand a chance.

Personally we have changed the pilot-tree a bit with an extra defensive driving talent, a new talent "keep the **** togheter" (once per encounter use a Destiny Point to ignore critical hit effects until the end of the encounter) and Another that can boost the Shields for a brief time. Threw the toughened and the grit talents out. Hopefully this will make the player playing the Pilot eager to put xp into his talent-tree except to take full throttle and escape all space-fight they come across, as they do after that first experience

I totally agrees with Skie here. Spaceship battle is way to dangerous. Our first space-fight was in escape from mos shuuta where they say 2 or 4 tie-fighter depending on how many players. So i as GM thought, hey this is a instruction adventure so how hard can it be. Sent in 2 TIEs with 2 more to join in later to keep Control of the fight (so i thought).

However the 2 Tie-fighter totally ass-raped the krayt fang with their linked cannon. If i hadent "cheated" as GM the Campaign would have ended right there. Dash a fair pilot, oskara with 1 or was it 2 skillrank in gunnery and then Another player (mercenary Soldier with also with gunnery) didnt stand a chance.

Personally we have changed the pilot-tree a bit with an extra defensive driving talent, a new talent "keep the **** togheter" (once per encounter use a Destiny Point to ignore critical hit effects until the end of the encounter) and Another that can boost the Shields for a brief time. Threw the toughened and the grit talents out. Hopefully this will make the player playing the Pilot eager to put xp into his talent-tree except to take full throttle and escape all space-fight they come across, as they do after that first experience

Well that beginner book also has LINKED as only 1 advantage whereas CRB has it at 2.

You know they are minion groups right, with 1 attack per round? That is only likely to do 3-4 dmg on average?

YGG vs PPS

I totally agrees with Skie here. Spaceship battle is way to dangerous. Our first space-fight was in escape from mos shuuta where they say 2 or 4 tie-fighter depending on how many players. So i as GM thought, hey this is a instruction adventure so how hard can it be. Sent in 2 TIEs with 2 more to join in later to keep Control of the fight (so i thought).

However the 2 Tie-fighter totally ass-raped the krayt fang with their linked cannon. If i hadent "cheated" as GM the Campaign would have ended right there. Dash a fair pilot, oskara with 1 or was it 2 skillrank in gunnery and then Another player (mercenary Soldier with also with gunnery) didnt stand a chance.

Personally we have changed the pilot-tree a bit with an extra defensive driving talent, a new talent "keep the **** togheter" (once per encounter use a Destiny Point to ignore critical hit effects until the end of the encounter) and Another that can boost the Shields for a brief time. Threw the toughened and the grit talents out. Hopefully this will make the player playing the Pilot eager to put xp into his talent-tree except to take full throttle and escape all space-fight they come across, as they do after that first experience

Well that beginner book also has LINKED as only 1 advantage whereas CRB has it at 2.

You know they are minion groups right, with 1 attack per round? That is only likely to do 3-4 dmg on average?

YGG vs PPS

True, now that you say it. I didnt run them as a Group. Maybe explains it a bit. However, I really Think that there should be a few more maneuvres/actions or talents to enhance spaceship ability to survive.

No more copy-pastes, I promise XD Choose the post you like ha ha ha

The shield idea concept its fine for most cases shields aren't 100% effective but, I would like to know what interpretations you make about some scenes like Auto-Blasters vs Droideka's Shiels (their own), Federation Station Bitten-Donut Ship (XD) that Naboo Fighters with lasers and Torpedoes think that its almost impenetrable, Gungan Shields vs B1 droids and Artillery Vehicles. Maybe a few cases like lasers againts big ships but, with those ones will be enough.

I mean, yep, I don't like videogame concept that you can sustain a lot of shots and recharge shields with F5, and also I understand that shield fluctuate and aren't always on but, in those cases where SURE shield can fight those kind of fire, how to do you deal with them?

Just 2 or 3 Setbacks seems not enough to recreate those scenes.

Another consideration its that I like oppinions about consider three different scales instead two.

Personal, Vehicle x5 and Ship x10. With those damage and armor adjustments, maybe a few more things will work.

What do you think?

I think they fairly represent how lethal space combat is. One lucky or random shot and everyone is dead, period. If characters or GM consistently put them in a steel flying can..they will get shot down. No heal spells, no teleport, just dead. Plane Dog-fighting in ww2 was incredibly dangerous..there is so much flying lead that even the BEST pilot is going to probably end up dead..eventually. It's not a space combat simulator. Try Star Fleet.

Pilot is good for one thing and that is getting out fast. Fast ship and a good pilot..means you can narratively exchange maybe a shot or two...give the sense of danger...as they narrowly escape. If you consistently put a freighter into combat its probably going to end up bad.

I think they fairly represent how lethal space combat is. One lucky or random shot and everyone is dead, period. If characters or GM consistently put them in a steel flying can..they will get shot down. No heal spells, no teleport, just dead. Plane Dog-fighting in ww2 was incredibly dangerous..there is so much flying lead that even the BEST pilot is going to probably end up dead..eventually. It's not a space combat simulator. Try Star Fleet.

Okay, so how does that make a fun game? I mean, you can go around getting into one brawl after another, get healed almost daily, yet the game tone suddenly changes when you crawl into a starfighter?

Space combat is not very "Star Wars" to me in this game. The few times I've used it, I've fluffed a lot and made sure it's more of a chase scenario. But I wouldn't put PCs in a straight up dogfight. For one thing, you're likely to get into a situation where some players are shot down early, and if you say they ejected and survived their ship blowing up, they're stuck with literally nothing to do while the other players carry on. Guaranteed yawn-fest.

I'm looking forward to hearing the next Order 66, maybe there will be some insight. But RAW, the starfighter part of space combat is a 180 swing from the rest of the game.

I think they fairly represent how lethal space combat is. One lucky or random shot and everyone is dead, period. If characters or GM consistently put them in a steel flying can..they will get shot down. No heal spells, no teleport, just dead. Plane Dog-fighting in ww2 was incredibly dangerous..there is so much flying lead that even the BEST pilot is going to probably end up dead..eventually. It's not a space combat simulator. Try Star Fleet.

Okay, so how does that make a fun game? I mean, you can go around getting into one brawl after another, get healed almost daily, yet the game tone suddenly changes when you crawl into a starfighter?

Space combat is not very "Star Wars" to me in this game. The few times I've used it, I've fluffed a lot and made sure it's more of a chase scenario. But I wouldn't put PCs in a straight up dogfight. For one thing, you're likely to get into a situation where some players are shot down early, and if you say they ejected and survived their ship blowing up, they're stuck with literally nothing to do while the other players carry on. Guaranteed yawn-fest.

I'm looking forward to hearing the next Order 66, maybe there will be some insight. But RAW, the starfighter part of space combat is a 180 swing from the rest of the game.

I don't know how much more they could add...I believe abstract was the right approach. No matter how "good" they make it, someone is going to point out how its not an accurate simulation. In a narrative rpg I think there is enough for people to get a sense of starship combat..it just isn't a simulator. I don't know, I'm not sure any pen and paper game could accurately depict the feel of starships that move so fast with no sense of depth and height. I keep telling myself..narrative and keep the story moving. If I feel the need to depict every foot of movement by a starship..were past roleplaying.

You are right but as a personal considerations, how would you recreate those scenes? I mean if you decide to do it, what "homerule" would you apply to simulate them?

Typically player's can destroy minion groups quickly, or reduce their fighting capabilities. Eyeballs are fairly weak in the wound threshold category, so the players just need to get a few good shots off.

Not saying the minions can't dish it out, but they don't get to survive their ship going beyond wound threshold.

Recently my players top pilot almost lost his xwing, but in two rounds he took out 2 sets 2 tie minion groups and then helped the freighter with the another (won't go into the gritty details unless asked).

Just keep in mind all the 'get out of jail' free cards the players have.

To me Star Wars space ships get lost, destroyed, repaired from the ground up, beat up, and so forth. Player characters might have to think on their feet to get out of the new jam, but I have tried to make accessing more space craft a achievable feat. FFG gives the players a ship for some debt and if you run Under a Black Sun a headhunter (or great chance for one)

Guess I trying to say keep the fights fun. If they get shot down you don't have to make getting a replacement vessel (or repairing the old one) a feat of strength. Nor should the players perish in a immediate ball of flame.

IMO, spaceships are backdrops to the story and fun tools for the players to use.

I hope they don't ever try to change the Starship combat, but instead give some good examples of how it works. I've personally had movie moments with it and find it to be pretty fun. Try to remember that it's almost exactly like personal combat, which is also deadly and requires narration.

The main point is to have options open if the PC's lose the fight beyond "you all explode and are dead."

Look at the films:

- Leia's ship is totally outmatched and captured. They don't blow it out of the sky because Vader wants the plans and info on the Rebellion.

- When the Falcon escapes the Death Star, only 4 TIE's are sent to stop it, Vader wants to track them explaining the "ease of their escape."

- The epic battle with the Death Star has only a small handful of fighters survive. Luke (the PC) personally only gets one TIE on his tail before the trench run, and Wedge helps him with it. During the trench run, both Biggs and Wedge are taken out of the fight, and the Falcon shows up to help with 3 TIE's.

- In the attack on Hoth, Snowspeeders explode like crazy. Luke's NPC gunner is killed, and he is shot down, arguably without doing anything useful until he takes on a Walker on the ground.

- Escaping from Hoth, the Falcon group knows they are outmatched, and Han takes the scene to a chase through some asteroids.

- The Speeder Bike chase has Luke and Leia both lose their vehicles.

- Chewie uses a Scout Walker to blow up another with the element of surprise, and then chases down some ground troops.

- Lando and Wedge are involved in a huge, very dangerous space battle, but we personally do not see them taking on loads of TIE's. They then have a chase through the Death Star 2, blow up their targets, and escape.

Overall, there really are zero pointless space battles in empty space where the entire point is to destroy the other side. (The Death Star escape battle is the closest to this, but man, that's the first time we had ever seen that sort of thing on film, and it was amazing!) When there are vehicle clashes, the PC's don't always come out of it with their vehicles intact.