Am I the only one that doesnt see this an abuse? The rules allow it, and it can be helpful to know.

The rules allow you to measure to the ship you're trying to lock, and there's nothing wrong with checking to know whether that ship is in range or not.

But that's not what the OP is talking about. The rules do not allow you to measure freely to any ship you want. Picking Ship A to target lock, when it's clearly out of range but happens to be behind Ship B, and in measuring to Ship A you just happen to lay your range ruler down so you can see that Ship B is just a little bit inside Range 1... You've measured something that didn't need to be measured in order to provide yourself with information that you could not legally obtain directly. That's pretty much the base definition of abusing a rule.

I agree that the CRA is pretty much a jumbled mess of "We have no idea what we want this rule to be" but unlimited measuring is not the only other option. I'd be perfectly happy to see the "Don't lose your action" dumped in favor of "Declare, Measure, Success/Failure" that doesn't let you take things back if it's out of range. I've always been a little shocked that there's such vehemence around the idea of making you live with your choices. You're not allowed to premeasure maneuvers, and you don't get to take it back or change it if it turns out you misjudged that bank and landed on an obstacle. Nobody seems to have the least heartburn with that level of commitment, but suggest attack and action limitations and it goes ballistic.

Make him eat his templates and his range ruler

But i also like the dice solution

If he continues to do this, just pull out your copy of the rules, place it carefully on the floor, drop trou, and whizz all over it. And when he reacts in horror just say "what? I thought you made it clear this is what we were doing to the rules now."

But that's not what the OP is talking about. The rules do not allow you to measure freely to any ship you want. Picking Ship A to target lock, when it's clearly out of range but happens to be behind Ship B, and in measuring to Ship A you just happen to lay your range ruler down so you can see that Ship B is just a little bit inside Range 1... You've measured something that didn't need to be measured in order to provide yourself with information that you could not legally obtain directly. That's pretty much the base definition of abusing a rule.

I know what hes talking about, but I still don't see that as an abuse.

What would be your solution? To say "that's clearly out" and not let him measure? What happens when someone says that and if it had been measured it was, in fact, in range? Not allowing it really only leads to further abuse. The only real answer would be to say he loses his action completely if it fails, but that is not supported by any of the rules documents we have currently.

The fact of the matter is that it is legal for him to declare his intention to acquire, and legal for him to measure at that point. The fact that the rules currently allow him to gain some additional information is perhaps a bit unfortunate, but it is (and in my opinion should be) allowed. It should also be mentioned that he gives you the same information he gained by doing so, so both players gain the knowledge (which means there very little, if any, unfair advantage there).

If he continues to do this, just pull out your copy of the rules, place it carefully on the floor, drop trou, and whizz all over it. And when he reacts in horror just say "what? I thought you made it clear this is what we were doing to the rules now."

Taking it a bit far aren't we? Seeing as how what he is doing is supported by the rules you just urinated on?

Just smash his models.

Just smash his models.

I agree, violence always solves everything amirite?

If he continues to do this, just pull out your copy of the rules, place it carefully on the floor, drop trou, and whizz all over it. And when he reacts in horror just say "what? I thought you made it clear this is what we were doing to the rules now."

Taking it a bit far aren't we? Seeing as how what he is doing is supported by the rules you just urinated on?

I see you're not good with the concept of ironic humor.

If he continues to do this, just pull out your copy of the rules, place it carefully on the floor, drop trou, and whizz all over it. And when he reacts in horror just say "what? I thought you made it clear this is what we were doing to the rules now."

Taking it a bit far aren't we? Seeing as how what he is doing is supported by the rules you just urinated on?

Not to mention, what he's doing ISN'T supported by the rules.

And I don't see why this is an issue - if someone is abusing this in a friendly game, he's a jerk, so quit playing him.

If he's doing this in an official event, call over a judge or TO, point out to them that he's trying to measure things he knows are out of range just so he can measure range to multiple things without committing to target locking any of them, and let them slap him on the wrist.

On top of which, if it IS a 'friendly' game, either use the abuse both ways because fair is fair, or just tell them to knock it off, and if they won't, don't play them. If it's a friendly game you have the power to either tell them to quit it, or quit playing with them. If it's an official deal, the judges can deal with it and decide if he's breaking the rules or not and deal with it accordingly.

I'm not sure what else there is to say on the subject. Except that yes: you may be the only one who doesn't see this as an abuse of the rules.

If he's doing this in an official event, call over a judge or TO, point out to them that he's trying to measure things he knows are out of range just so he can measure range to multiple things without committing to target locking any of them, and let them slap him on the wrist.

Too bad the TO has no basis to 'slap him on the wrist'. Both versions of rules support the player being allowed to do so if he desires. If the TO issues punishment on something clearly defined in the rules, then what does that say about the rest of his rulings?

Not really sure when "following the rules" equated to "being a jerk" but okay whatever.

Because bending the rules to your own advantage in a way they're clearly not intended to allow, is pretty much the definition of abusing the rules. If you were flat out breaking them it would be straight up cheating. You can abuse the rules by breaking the intent of them while sticking to the letter of them.

Not to mention, it's completely within the TO's discretion to enforce or interpret the rules however they see fit, so they can absolutely warn someone for doing that and punish them if they continue to do it anyway.

If he's doing this in an official event, call over a judge or TO, point out to them that he's trying to measure things he knows are out of range just so he can measure range to multiple things without committing to target locking any of them, and let them slap him on the wrist.

Too bad the TO has no basis to 'slap him on the wrist'. Both versions of rules support the player being allowed to do so if he desires. If the TO issues punishment on something clearly defined in the rules, then what does that say about the rest of his rulings?

Not really sure when "following the rules" equated to "being a jerk" but okay whatever.

And hey, you're not swearing or using obscene language or anything like that, so you're 'following the rules' of the forum, while still finding a way to be a jerk, so clearly it is possible.

Not to mention, what he's doing ISN'T supported by the rules.

I can quote them if you like. At no point do either the competitive or base rules state or even infer that that there has to be some reasonable agreement between both players about what is/is not in range.

FAQ:

BRB:

If he's doing this in an official event, call over a judge or TO, point out to them that he's trying to measure things he knows are out of range just so he can measure range to multiple things without committing to target locking any of them, and let them slap him on the wrist.

Too bad the TO has no basis to 'slap him on the wrist'. Both versions of rules support the player being allowed to do so if he desires. If the TO issues punishment on something clearly defined in the rules, then what does that say about the rest of his rulings?

Not really sure when "following the rules" equated to "being a jerk" but okay whatever.

And hey, you're not swearing or using obscene language or anything like that, so you're 'following the rules' of the forum, while still finding a way to be a jerk, so clearly it is possible.

I guess if you think backing up my opinion with facts instead of my opinions is me being a jerk, well okay I suppose.

"Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them."
It lists a number of unsportsmanlike behaviors, followed by an "etc" to indicate that the TO has the discretion to interpret exactly what constitutes an unsportsmanlike behavior.

I don't know how much clearer it can be that you can be within the rules and still be abusing them, or that they can tell you to knock off doing precisely that.

I think backing up your opinions with snark, dismissal, sarcasm, etc, is being a jerk, sure, regardless of the facts. You could be right and still be a jerk. Nonetheless, the TO has a wide range of discretion in deciding if a behavior, legal or not, is unsporting, and I think most people agree this falls under that heading.

I think backing up your opinions with snark, dismissal, sarcasm, etc, is being a jerk, sure, regardless of the facts. You could be right and still be a jerk. Nonetheless, the TO has a wide range of discretion in deciding if a behavior, legal or not, is unsporting, and I think most people agree this falls under that heading.

Again, I fail to see how following the rules is unsporting. The only thing unsporting about them that I can see is that you, and apparently many others, do not like the outcome. The mob mentality is always right, clearly.

TOs who interpret the rules the way they want them are house-ruling pure and simple. That's inexcusable as far as I am concerned.

The base rules let you measure all willy-nilly before you even say you are target locking. I'm not sure how measuring to one ship under the FAQ interpretation is at all unsporting given that.

If both sides are fine measuring range to whatever, whenever, as the base rules say and then later contradict, there's no problem. If it's in a tournament setting, however, any such rulings are up to the TO - you can call it opinion, house-ruling, whatever you want, but their rulings are final. And the tournament rules specifically state that there are any manner of loopholes that may emerge which they didn't anticipate - someone finding some infinite loop of abilities, for example - which may fall within the letter of the rules and yet still be judged unsporting.

And in every case that judgment falls to the TO. And it seems like you're in the minority here thinking that isn't a pretty blatant attempt to circumvent the intent of the competitive rules for checking range. So you can call it inexcusable if you like, but any TO at any event anywhere would be fully within their rights to declare that an unsporting action.

Players are strongly encouraged to resolve actions

in a speedy and sportsmanlike manner. However, if a

player is concerned that his opponent is abusing the

rules to gain an unfair advantage, he can request that

his opponent follow the more strict action resolution

described below.

If he continues to do this, just pull out your copy of the rules, place it carefully on the floor, drop trou, and whizz all over it. And when he reacts in horror just say "what? I thought you made it clear this is what we were doing to the rules now."

Taking it a bit far aren't we?