I could actually see capital ship/turbo laser dice that have double hit/crit results but more blanks. Maybe no focuses. That would mean they have a harder chance to hit small ships, but when they do it hurts.

now we are getting somewhere...

We tried this. Someone in our group got the trek dice from someone who quit the game so we could try it. It was SUPER broken. We made it a 4 point modification at first and all it did was change a single red dice to that dice. It was really dumb on unique pilots. Wedge became a monster of epic proportions. Tycho was an a-wing that hit just like if not better than an xwing. Its just not balanced for small ships. Ties were worse. Someone took as many academies as possible with this upgrade, it was to many hits the games were over so fast, Vader was dumb. The big ships were even worse and if you had a 360 arc you were overkilling ties by a hit or more if you were ever in range one and simply doing at least 2 damage if they werent. Navigator fett was mean...Han was.....

I think if they add new dice with different statistics or markings then they should only be applicable to the capital ships that have not been release yet. They can balance them for the new dice. We even tried other things like making it a systems mod and nothing else was worth taking but bwings. As far as my group can consider any bonus or upgrade adding that die to any ship is worth at least 10 points. It just changes the hit and dodge mechanic so much. We tried out around 30 individual games with the usual lists, being XXXX, tie swarm, Han shoots first etc. it was simply to powerful. GW would be proud.

However, IF they HAVE to add it then it SHOULD NOT BE SPECIAL. It needs to come with a ship and should be readilly available to both factions and every player. With that said FFG has done a spectacular job of managing balance and making each faction feel unique so if they add it i am sure it will be to the best implementation possible.

We don't like the way that dice was given out or what they chose to put on its faces.

What are the odds of pulling the double crit out of the damage deck? How about the maybe extra damage ones? And those combined? If we can figure out that we can assign extra weight to the crits and get some more math done.

I wanted to stick with d8's but see how d10s would help with the more subtle shift. Some of the ones I ran only increased things by 3-5%. Not enough to make a difference In a single game. Other options presented go too far. We want to increase the power and occurance of hits but not the potential # of hits. Same with evades.

I could actually see capital ship/turbo laser dice that have double hit/crit results but more blanks. Maybe no focuses. That would mean they have a harder chance to hit small ships, but when they do it hurts.

This makes a lot of sense to me. You get hit by some of those turbo lasers designed to take out other capital ships and you shouldn't live through it. But being that they're designed to target large ships, they'd be difficult to target small fast moving fighters. It works perfectly into the lore and should be capable of being worked into the game play.

Something like hit x2, hit x2, focus, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank would be cool.

As for the power increase, if we're discussing what seems to be the most logical (in my mind) idea of crit, hit, hit, hit, hit, focus, focus, blank; it would increase that dies chance of rolling a hit by 12.5%. But how does that play out overall? Lets assume a 4 dice attack. 3 normal and 1 "purple."

First thing to realize is that a Focus is now better than a TL for attack purposes. And since it can also be used for defense, it is just better overall now. A red die focused or TL has a 75% chance to hit. A purple one has a 87.5% focused, and 85.9% chance with a TL. Not that big of a difference, but it exists now when it didn't before.

So, average number of hits on a 4 attack focused strike was 3.00. Switching out 1 die for the purple increases it to 3.125 hits. That is a 4% hit increase from the base attack. But seeing as first few hits are likely to be cancelled out anyways, it's a larger % damage increase.

Now lets compare against the defender. A stealthed interceptor with 4 agility and a focus is hard to hit. He will roll 2.99 evades. Your average damage with 4 regular dice is only .79 (which actually means your % to hit is even lower). With the purple die, it increases to .87. For now lets just say that average damage ~= %hit. In this case it should be rather close. So that means that the purple die has increased your probability to strip the stealth device 10.1%.

But lets be honest - you want to get the most out of whatever ship has this kick *** die on it. So we're going to slap PTL on it to make sure you can always have a F and a TL. So how does the new die stack up now? It hardly makes a difference. Average hits increases from 3.75 to 3.86, an even smaller increase of 2.9%. Clearly this wouldn't even increase the probability to hit by 10% - more like 7%.

So, offensively it isn't that big of an increase. In my next post, I'll actually take a look at it from a defensive point of view.

So, as I said - the purple die doesn't really make a big offensive difference. But what about when you decide to take an evade token or use your focus for defense... or sacrifice your damage token for some added maneuverability? How does the purple die help the damage stream on a naked roll?

We'll use the same example of 4 dice to begin with. A naked 4 red dice roll nets 2.0 hits. With a single purple, this increases to 2.125, an increase of 6.25%. The average damage against a focused stealth interceptor is only .33 with 4 naked red dice. With one purple, it is increased to .38. An increase of 15%.

Against a naked 1 agility ship, the average damage is 1.41. This is increased to 1.53 with the purple, an increase of 8.5%.

So, for high powered ships, it would seem that the best use of the die is to allow the player to be more flexible in his/her action, rather than to increase maximum damage. But what about its use on a TIE fighter or A wing that only has 2 attack dice to begin with? Is it more effective then?

The spoiler is yes - the purple die is more effective the less dice you have.

An focused range 2 A wing normally only rolls 1.5 hits. But replace one of those red with a purple, and it increases to 1.625, for an improvement of 8%. Nearly three times that of a TL/F 4 dice attack. Attacking against a naked 2 agility ship, an A wing would normally do .85 damage. The purple die increases it to .95 damage. That is an 11% damage increase. Not a bad increase. Against that stealthed focused interceptor it still doesn't have much of a chance: .10 is increased to .12, which represents a 20% increase, but its still an unlikely shot.

I honestly wouldn't make this dice more than 2 cost. And I wouldn't make it unique - allow a ship to replace as many as he/she wants. An A wing with 2 purple dice still only has a 14% chance to hit that stealthed interceptor, and its attack against an agility 1 is increased another 11% to 1.05 damage. Not game breaking, especially when you look at what those 4 points could have purchased, namely a shield. That A wing would have to get 5 shots off to equal break even with the shield for damage output. That seems to be a reasonable number of rounds for an A wing to last on average (if flown correctly).

As for stacking 3 of them on an X/B wing, the damage increase is even more marginal, and they have now paid 6 points for that. It would increase it by 30% on that interceptor, so they would once again have to get about 5 shots off to pay for the extra 6 points before they break even. I doubt that an X wing would last that long. But then again - that would be a reason to not stack 3 purple dice on 1 ship.

alot of well thought out answers. i love the theory crafting going on here. who knows some of this may very well be implemented in the new large ship rules.

i do not to expect to ever see a mod that would allow this kind of die to be added to a pool that could just go on any ol ship. it would specifically have to be able to mount a turret ( y-wing, B-wing, YT, Firespray) and you would loose a agility value for installing it onto a secondary weapon, not a primary, thus making it a super expensive points investemnt that is very very risky.

i like the thoughts about extra blanks and extra hits simulating the fact that it is a very heavey weapon that is capable of damaging capitol class starcraft. it misses the small ships alot, but if it does hit...BOOM you get one shot right out of the sky.

likewize for the agility die, i would like to see it limited to smaller ships, and if you do install it you loose 1 from your primary weapon value, forcing the craft to utilize secondary weapons or a very light primary attack but gaining alot of evade for the trade off.

so far we are coming up with alot of good arguments for and against the idea.

most of the cons surrounding this issue is availability, and maybe some power creep. i think with players and developers involved in a disscussion like this we will see a verybalanced effect on the game and not a overpowered...OMG I HAVE TO HAVE THIS DIE SET. but you will want it for your collections anyways so....LOL here let me throw my money at you!

The Theory craft is what has been missing to ease peoples minds. We're not looking for the attack wing dice, we're taking what could have been a great idea and making it work for our game in a way that doesn't overpower, doesn't create a "chase promo" situation, and opens up design options.

So other ideas to try:

Further opening options by use of d10 instead of d8

the double hit and the evade crit option

point cost

We are forgetting that we actually have two colors to work with per die type.

Attack:

Make the attack die red but have the markings themselves BLACK instead of white. Or flip it, black die with red markings. This keeps the aesthetic in place, adds an 'oh sh*t' moment for effect when you see it being rolled, allows for easy recognition, AND it's a nice nod to Star Wars' imagery where red/black are Sith 'I'm gonna kick you @ss' colors.

Defense:

Same concept. Make the die green but with BLACK instead of white markings. Tourny checks will be easier, inappropriate roles quickly spotted, and the color alignment remains intact.

The other thing you could do, though I'm less of a fan, is simply add borders to each side of the die. The geometric pattern would render the die even more obvious but keep the colors intact.

(On a side note, I actually think having BLUE die for ion cannons would've been cool. It could have blanks, focus, hits, and an ion symbol that totally left your ship dead in the water for a full turn. Be cute.)

I agree the granular progression is important. But why not start utilizing all the other dimensions of the game?

Modification, PS 7+ Only [4 pts]:

"Redirect Power" You may REPLACE one die with the appropriate [special] die. If attack, lose one shield. If defense, lose one attack. Effect resolved at the end of the next combat phase.

This puts the specialty dice into the general decision economy of the game. The trade off means you won't use it thoughtlessly. Make it a modification card so it can go anywhere, attach it to PS, sell it with the two dice, Done.

Other thngs you could use to try and balance the better dice could be:

-adding a stress

-costing an action

-incurring a penalty/cost to other stats (as I did)

-limiting it to only PS 7+ The naturally higher cost of PS 7+ pilots would therefore also reduce the points you could splash on special dice (as I did)

That's just me spitballing for now. I'll have to think about it more. Gotta run to class.

exactly. This idea opens up so much design space and allows for more powerful ship options without breaking the 1-3 die base.

I don't like the double hit results, heck I don't like the evade die at all, I dont like the mod for ever ship. All of that is to big of a power creep. What I like about a new die is the ability to expand the game with more powerful ships without it being as powerful as adding a 4th atk die to primary atk.

I like the idea of a new die with more crit results simply because I think crit and damage decks are under utilized in the game. So I would like to see a new die for stronger fighter ships or Capitol ships. With more crits instead of hits or 1 less blank and 1 more crit.

The power creep can be controlled.

Let's use a fake defender stats of 2/1, 3, 3, 2. The primary atk number on the card would be 2red 1 purple die. It would be minimal but increased accuracy and crit potential. Whereas a Capitol weapon battery could be 3 purple die to represent a much stronger laser. Although the max hits will still be limited.

And of course the die needed for this should come inside the expansion box with the ship and not a tournament or something silly.

It's only powercreep if it becomes the new baseline. We're really running through the ideas here with an eye towards balance and at every point we have included "additional cost to base ship" or "this modification would cost pts". We don't want this given away for fee. That would be powercreep. The new dice would be available for purchase just like all other modifications.

I too am in favor of more powerful hits vs. more hits as that's when the math starts getting exponentially better options rather than slightly better. I do want to see an elite evade die if we're seeing an elite att die. Just makes sense. I would like to see it as an option for some ships to get this mod but would prefer it to be for primary weapons only and that opens design space for other mods/pilots to be able to use them for secondary weapons.

What's so broken about FFG's X-wing dice? . . . . Nothing!
Wise man say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it

'Nuff said.

What's so broken about FFG's X-wing dice? . . . . Nothing!

There is nothing broken, but that doesn't mean it can't also be improved upon.

The problem is not with the die. It's the system. U can' only create so many variations of 1-2-3.....

The problem comes when you add 4 to the system. You start to invalidate 1-2. Right now the game is fine and balanced. No one knows what will happen when they add in Capitol weapon batteries, assault gunboats, tie defenders, etc. Bigger more powerful ships. Can you create better ships without invalidating older ships? I think so but it needs to be done by controlling the power creep. The best reason for a newer die is it's less of a power creep then adding in 4 primary atk ships. I have to believe that why ffg haven't broken that barrier yet.

The problem with extra evade die is it's much more powerful then a better atk chance. A ship with a more accurate special atk die can still be shot down quickly. He becomes kinda like wedge. Where any ship in the game can kill him. A ship with special evade die becomes nearly impossible to kill. Let's say a we create some super agile tie phantom type ship with a 1-3 special evade dice with 1 extra evade result on each die. It becomes substantially harder to hit at all even with a 3 atk die ship. Now u add in the stealth mod to it to make it 4 evade dice. Now everyone knows that stealth is better the more or better ur evade die are. Heaven help us if this ship has an evade action. U will almost never hit the ship without something crazy like a jacked up wedge. And even if this ship has 2-3 primary or a secondary atk it will eventually win a war of attrition.

What's so broken about FFG's X-wing dice? . . . . Nothing!

There is nothing broken, but that doesn't mean it can't also be improved upon.

The problem is not with the die. It's the system. U can' only create so many variations of 1-2-3.....

The problem comes when you add 4 to the system. You start to invalidate 1-2. Right now the game is fine and balanced. No one knows what will happen when they add in Capitol weapon batteries, assault gunboats, tie defenders, etc. Bigger more powerful ships. Can you create better ships without invalidating older ships? I think so but it needs to be done by controlling the power creep. The best reason for a newer die is it's less of a power creep then adding in 4 primary atk ships. I have to believe that why ffg haven't broken that barrier yet.

The problem with extra evade die is it's much more powerful then a better atk chance. A ship with a more accurate special atk die can still be shot down quickly. He becomes kinda like wedge. Where any ship in the game can kill him. A ship with special evade die becomes nearly impossible to kill. Let's say a we create some super agile tie phantom type ship with a 1-3 special evade dice with 1 extra evade result on each die. It becomes substantially harder to hit at all even with a 3 atk die ship. Now u add in the stealth mod to it to make it 4 evade dice. Now everyone knows that stealth is better the more or better ur evade die are. Heaven help us if this ship has an evade action. U will almost never hit the ship without something crazy like a jacked up wedge. And even if this ship has 2-3 primary or a secondary atk it will eventually win a war of attrition.

The stats are the most visible forms of comparing a ship. I think Wave 3 has shown that the stats are not the only thing to judge a ship on. Anyone remember the calls about how broken the Lambda was for having 10HPs at 22 pts? Does anyone think 4 Lambdas is a good squad, let alone game breaking? Maneuver dials, upgrade options, and actions will all help distinguish ships with similar stat lines.

And yet wave 3 showed us there is only so much they can do.

The maneuver dial is limited as well to 16 options on 5 speeds. The atk and evade are pretty much limited to 1-2-3.

Actions are pretty much limited to 4 abilities with focus standard to any manned ship.

U have various secondaries they keep adding that follow similar 1-2-3-4 combinations at ranges within 1-2-3.

Two of the wave three ships were entirely gimmick support ships already. You have basic fire arc and rest aux and 360 fire arc. How many more combinations can they do? Without invalidating older ships? Adding a 4th die is much bigger power creep then a die with a higher crit chance. Right now the game is near perfect. If they created no more fighters we would be fine but they will obviously keep expanding and selling more models and I am sure most people want that. The question is how.

What's so broken about FFG's X-wing dice? . . . . Nothing!

There is nothing broken, but that doesn't mean it can't also be improved upon.

Ya I don't like blanket mod ideas also because it substantially alters the balance of every ship. I'm not saying you can't make a tie adv mod that allows it to use the special atk die on one or both of its 2 atk die. That really won't change much and the tie adv can use some help but a blanket mod will make some special pilots or most atk 3 ships much stronger. It's not an upgrade good for a blanket addition. A single purple atk die with 1 less blank and 1 more crit on the hwks 1 atk die is pretty much worthless. Whereas on wedge or Ten numb makes them substantially stronger.

No one has proposed the ability for more than one of these dice to be used. However, the use of such for capital ships hasn't been explored yet.

Posters have also shown that the purple elite die is more valuable on 1-2 die ships than on 3 (also a reason why multiple die replacement is not so big a deal).

Please at least glance at most of the thread before continuing to perpetuate some of the concerns we've already addressed.

Other ideas for a more accurate die rather than a more powerful one?

D10?

What's so broken about FFG's X-wing dice? . . . . Nothing!

Wise man say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it

'Nuff said.

Fo shizzle.

What's so broken about FFG's X-wing dice? . . . . Nothing!

Wise man say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it

'Nuff said.

Fo shizzle.

I could see them adding 4 banks, 5 banks and 4 turns for example. This doesn't necessary lead to power creep, can you imagine how hard a ship that had no 1 or 2 turns would be to maneuver. But it would allow them to add faster, less maneuverable ships for example.

An additional second type of dice would allow a lot more variation in ship design. Imagine if it had one of it's blanks swapped for a critical.. A ship with 2 purple dice, would not be as accurate or likely to hit as a ship with 3 reds, but it would hit much harder than a ship with 2 red with the increased chance of criticals.

I just don't think we need small ships with attack or defense stats in the 4+ range yet (or ever). Ships can be differentiated by their maneuver dials, action bars, upgrade bars, and a difference in 1 stat is significant. There are likely to be new action types and new upgrade types that open up new ways of doing things -- without necessarily resulting in power creep.

And yet wave 3 showed us there is only so much they can do.

The maneuver dial is limited as well to 16 options on 5 speeds. The atk and evade are pretty much limited to 1-2-3.

Actions are pretty much limited to 4 abilities with focus standard to any manned ship.

U have various secondaries they keep adding that follow similar 1-2-3-4 combinations at ranges within 1-2-3.

Two of the wave three ships were entirely gimmick support ships already. You have basic fire arc and rest aux and 360 fire arc. How many more combinations can they do? Without invalidating older ships? Adding a 4th die is much bigger power creep then a die with a higher crit chance. Right now the game is near perfect. If they created no more fighters we would be fine but they will obviously keep expanding and selling more models and I am sure most people want that. The question is how.

The simple answer is, by being creative.

Maneuver Dial: There are 23 different maneuvers possible (Bank Speed 1-3, Turn Speed 1-3, Straight 1-5, K-turn Speed 1-5, and the stop). Add in differing difficulty, there is some decent options for variety there.

Actions: Sure, a ship may be limited to 4. But how many new actions will they add? Boost did not come into play until Wave 2. FFG could have some new options on the way. There is some fun design space here.

Upgrades: You focus primarily on secondary weapons, and you only focus on the stats. You ignore the additional text that secondary weapons bring. A Heavy Laser Cannon will play different than a ship with 4 Atk. Ion weapons have secondary effects. One shot Missiles/Torpedoes are a fascinating strategic option. But really, secondary weapons are merely one section of upgrade. We also currently have: Elite Talents, Sensors, Astromechs, Crew. The biggest difference going forward of a HWK vs Y-wing as a Turret platform will be the crew vs Astromech slot, imo. Let's see what other upgrades FFG can come up with. Let's not forget ship specific titles.

Arcs: There is some room to play with arcs. 180 degrees, having some 90 degree blind spots. Sure, not a wide range, and not likely to be used too often, but a ship with different arcs will play differently than other ships fairly obviously.

And doing all this without obsoleting old ships. It just requires some careful playtesting and costing.

Creativity is best when unlimited, or in this case limited less.

I would rather be playing ships with a new stat line AND new upgrades, actions, and dials. There is already some comparison between ships: it's a less maneuverable Ywing. I would rather that not be the only difference in my ships. Without new actions and ship specific upgrades it will start to feel that way even more.

Yep, you can do ship specific upgrades and titles but you also limit creativity when you have to do that to make sure it is balanced and different enough than: an Xwing with a crew slot instead of astromech and 1 less green maneuver.