You mean like adding dice that can get multiple hits per die as the OP suggests?

Well yes that is a bit of powercreep, and that's not what most of us would want in the game.

Most times the idea is that you get 1 and only 1 special die, not 3 of them. So even if you had a double hit/crit it would at most allow 1 more hit.

But most times it's more along the lines of adding an extra hit and focus to the die, so rather then getting more hits then die rolled, but rather just an impoved chance of getting a hit.

ER... JINX.... we both posted almost identical posts at the same time Rakky Wistol

Great MASTERminds think alike.

IMHO, X-wing has a lot more granularity to work with than just the raw numbers. If it were just about the numbers, we'd all be griping about how awesome (or broken) Expose was. Actions and action economy provide a number of additional levers that can be pulled. Is the 5 dice of an APT awesome? Certainly. Has it turned out to be game-destroying? Not hardly. Why? Action economy.

4 attack is pretty huge, but what happens if it's on a ship that doesn't have the focus action?

That's also the reason why I'm hesitant to add different types of dice. There are a lot more dimensions to X-wing's probability, and how it actually plays out in the game, than just the number of dice you roll, and if you change the basic die probability they ALL affect what that actually does. At its simplest this makes the actual effectiveness of the die harder to analyze, and at its worst has far-reaching and unintended side effects.

For example, consider the Attack Wing Elite die. It not only has the double hit icon, it has no blank faces - what would be focus are hits, and what would be blanks are focus. This is interesting for them because Battlestations (their equivalent to Focus) is actually rare. A similar die here would make Focus - already the odds-on favorite action - near-mandatory because it mean a guaranteed hit. Evade and Target Lock get completely dumped.

Not saying it can't be done. Personally, I don't like the idea of having any more colors to sort through in the middle of a game - we play Edge of the Empire, and it's honestly kind of a pain even in the open environment of an RPG. But regardless of liking it or not, X-wing has a lot of balance and competing factors.

See, that's why it's called power CREEP. You start only adding 1, but eventually it increases to 2 because a couple years pass and it doesn't seem like a big deal since every ship has 1 now. . . .

You mean like adding dice that can get multiple hits per die as the OP suggests? You could end up with a ship that only rolls three dice but gets 6 hits. Sounds like power creep to me.

No one has suggested replacing all dice with this "elite" dice. Most people seem to like the 2+1 elite idea much more than a 4 die attack. Depending on what configuration is chosen the "elite" die would either increase the likelihood of a hit on a single die or increase the power of a single hit on a single die.

Both are better than the regular die but you're paying for it. Powercreep would be making this die and just allowing you to swap it in and out for free.

Making blanks focuses helps generate a hit more often but not an extra hit. Making a blank a crit would increase the power and likelihood of the hit but not generate the ability to get more hits.

I would prefer to see an evade and an attack specific die than one multipurpose die.

I would begin by making it only available to primary attacks with further Pilot Abilities or Titles allowing it's use for specific secondary weapons. Then that opens up new design space too.

It's also a great way to represent Force Using pilots:

EPT: force user- once per round when you reroll a die, roll an elite die instead.

I'm not against the idea in principle. I mean, many Torpedoes and Missiles pretty much already changes the odds of the dice. Implementation is where it begins to worry me. I do not like the idea of a potential price increase in whatever ship they include said dice with. Given the packaging of the fighters, I don't see them carrying the new die. Which leaves the Large and Capital ships. And another dice pack. And the question of what upgrades/ships will use said die. While you do have to buy a wide range of ships to use the different upgrades, I don't like the idea of buying as specific product, beyond the core, to actually use said upgrade. Which means each ship that uses the new die needs to include it. Which will result in a lot of waste. Or, you increase the mandatory buy in beyond the core. Not a fan of it.

See, that's why it's called power CREEP. You start only adding 1, but eventually it increases to 2 because a couple years pass and it doesn't seem like a big deal since every ship has 1 now. . . .

power creep occurs when the additional 1 or 2 becomes the new baseline without cost increase. That's not what we're talking about here at all.

Power creep happens in most games over time as a way to generate more $$$ primarily. FFG could probably do nothing but new pilots, repaints, and alt sculpts for a year and still make as much $$$ as they are now. $$$ isn't impacting development yet (at least I hope it isn't).

Xwing isn't 40K or Magic or DDm.

power creep occurs when the additional 1 or 2 becomes the new baseline without cost increase.

Yes, a new die is not at all the same thing as the kind of powercreep you see in 40k or MtG. In both those games powercreep has more to do with selling more stuff then anything else. They make more powerful units or cards because then you're forced to buy them to keep up.

Adding a new die type into this game isn't at all the same thing.

Now maybe Buhallin is completely correct and there is no need for such a thing. I know I tend to consider what he says fairly carefully because he has a lot of good points and has done a lot of digging into the mechanics of the game.

But not doing it because it's powercreep isn't really an issue here... No one thinks the APT is powercreep, even though it's a more powerful version of the PT. The reason for that, is because of the cost of the APT. So likewise if they were to do something like this, and they balance the cost, then it is not powercreep.

The issue is with ship design. You could give a Defender an ability that would make the dice unnecessary. But it's obvious that FFG don't want to put more rules on cards... Ships don't have rules, pilots do.. So that leaves you the options if you want something better at shooting of giving them an extra dice, target lock or focus (and you could argue that every ship can focus)... So that is just Target Lock or an extra dice.

Tying the increase into a dice allows them to add it as a stat.. 2+1 rather than a special rule...

i never intended for the new dice to be added to any exsisting pool. i wanted it to be if you have the upgrade then the dice replaces one of the regularly rolled dice. so if your attack is 2 and you are at range one that is 2+1 dice to roll for a total of three, IF your ship has a weapon that can be upgraded THEN it replaces one of the basic dice.

same thing for agility...if your ship has the upgrade you can now replace one of your dice with the new die when you roll.

say you have a ship that can have a turret weapon. and then you have a weapon mosification card that only effects turret weapons. one , you have to pay for the turret weapons points cost, then you have to pay for the modifications points cost. so if you are wiling to invest a ton of points into a ship with a death cannon on it that can one shot a x wing or tie adv....then fine, but also realize what you loose when someone focus fires that ship off the table.

i do not see any power creep there.

i do not think that the weapons modification card should go on all weapons. i envision it being restricted to heavy weaponry, thus providing the solid punch that a die like that would make a ship capable of......or a heavey duy blaster cannon that is on a capitol ship....now see where i am going with this?

as for a different color, i am still not on board with that for production reasons...they already are making green and red dice or for astethetic reasons, i want all the dice to look the same.

the idea about making it a tournoment prize was dumb, as was a promo item..... i would love to see a blister pack of two dice, one green and one red, and a set of weapon and ship upgrades that utilize them and maybe a few specialty pilots that utilize it....similar to Impreial aces or Rogue squadron.


that was my original intent anyways...

as for a different color, i am still not on board with that for production reasons...they already are making green and red dice or for astethetic reasons, i want all the dice to look the same.

I'm totally against that.. a Red dice with different stats on it would be a nightmare... Can you imagine having to check every players dice before a tournament.

why would you have more then one?

there is only 2 dice in a pack....why would you buy multiple packs of this....for upgrades, pilots or modification cards? why... i think anything that comes in the pack should be unique. that would kill the need for everyone to buy three packs of this expansion, just to outfit three ships with doom cannons.

i think the points cost and uniquness of the modifications should make it so that issue never arrises, EXSPECIALLY in tournoment play.

exspecially if the weapons modification was like...

"upgrade one turret weapon with this card and subtract one agility from the ships pilot. replace one of your basic dice with the new die. this card is unique."

costs 6 pts.

if you saw a card like that it would be impossible to run three ships with HLC with this mod on them. one , its too expensive because you also have to pay for the turret weapon, 2 the uniquiness makes it so that never ever happens....EVER. then the downside of loosing a agility for the mod makes it risky to have...... i like that.

power creep killed.

If something is balanced it shouldn't need to be unique.. If making it unique is 'balancing it' .... What happens when 3 other different things are unique, then you have a full fleet with unique things that are better than the non-unique.

The thing is there is very little need for an extra dice in the game if it's not for allowing granularity in ship design. Upgrade cards are already granular enough, a card that changes a focus to a hit, is already much more granular than having the option of 3 or 4 dice when creating a ship. If your just using it for upgrades then it's really just look at my shiny dice with no real alteration in gameplay over what you could do with just text.

R2-D2 is unique and i do not think he is better or creates a power creep over any of the astro mechs....so i dont know where your going with that. this prevents the need for people to buy several copies.

That's thematic, as there is only one R2-D2... What you were saying was this dice wasn't going to be broken or OP because you were making it Unique so people could only take 1.

a Red dice with different stats on it would be a nightmare...

Agreed, you have to have it easily distinguished from the other dice. Otherwise you'd have people rolling it when they shouldn't. You may or may not even notice they did it, unless there's a double hit or something you can't do normally.

Sometimes it would be unintentional, others it might not... But if the elite die is the same color as normal dice, you'd never know for sure which was true.

bah, stop confusing me with sound facts.

So a normal red die is: Crit, hit, hit ,hit, focus, focus, blank, blank.

What if you made a purple die to be: Crit, hit, hit, hit, hit, focus, focus, blank. It generates one more instance of gaining a hit but doesn't sway action selection as much as adding in another focus or crit.

And a normal green die is: evade, evade, evade, focus, focus, blank, blank, blank.

Making it a black die with: evade, evade, evade, evade, focus, focus, blank, blank. It would generate a 50% chance of evading a hit on one die instead of 33%. That jumps to 75% if you take a focus. That would push focus into the need-to-have realm for action selection.

What would be better would be: Double evade, evade, evade, focus, focus, blank, blank, blank. You have slightly better odds of dodging 2 hits with it without pushing action selection towards favouring one action over another.

And what would the colour of these new dice be?

Purple and black

Orange and Blue

White and Yellow

Purple and Blue

Orange and Yellow

Something else and something else

And if he wasn't unique he'd cost a lot more. Could you imagine a whole fleet of shielded R2-D2 xwings? Not a fun list to fly against.

Balance is king for me. I've given up on a lot of games when power creep does rear its ugly head. Love the idea and think it opens more doors to more options for more fun...and that's why we play.

I also prefer my rules text to be off of the ships unless it's a pilot ability. Upgrades are great. There are very few non-viable upgrades in this game... again, it's very balanced.

What would this do to the game? Let's start working on some statistics and math.

Purple with Yellow symbols

Black with Green symbols

So a normal red die is: Crit, hit, hit ,hit, focus, focus, blank, blank.

What if you made a purple die to be: Crit, hit, hit, hit, hit, focus, focus, blank. It generates one more instance of gaining a hit but doesn't sway action selection as much as adding in another focus or crit.

And a normal green die is: evade, evade, evade, focus, focus, blank, blank, blank.

Making it a black die with: evade, evade, evade, evade, focus, focus, blank, blank. It would generate a 50% chance of evading a hit on one die instead of 33%. That jumps to 75% if you take a focus. That would push focus into the need-to-have realm for action selection.

What would be better would be: Double evade, evade, evade, focus, focus, blank, blank, blank. You have slightly better odds of dodging 2 hits with it without pushing action selection towards favouring one action over another.

And what would the colour of these new dice be?

Purple and black

Orange and Blue

White and Yellow

Purple and Blue

Orange and Yellow

Something else and something else

So how much of a hit is a focus currently worth? .25 hits? .33 hits? And they obviously get better the more dice you have.

And how much of a evade is a focus currently worth? .2? .3?

For black: evade, evade, evade, focus, focus, blank, evade a CRIT

It only evades crits so sometimes it's amazing but it doesn't change your action selection and if they roll no crits it is no different than a blank.

For Purple: Crit, Crit, Crit, hit, focus, focus, blank, blank.

doesn't change action selection just makes the fire power higher. Sometimes it's a lot of crits but with shields in play those crits are really just the same as hits. There are some crit enhancing effects right now, how powerful are they? How prevalent are they? If one extra time a game or so you get that extra crit combo going is it too much? Consider if the Black die canceled crits and that number could be even lower.

These are pretty small changes, but don't change action selection, which seems to be the biggest concern so far.

bah, stop confusing me with sound facts.

Sorry I will refrain from using facts any further in this thread...

So with that said. I think the new die shoud have the following.

Purple = Monkey, Monkey, Rabit, Rabit, Banna, Turttle. Becoming a 8 sided dice with only 6 sides.

bah, stop confusing me with sound facts.

Sorry I will refrain from using facts any further in this thread...

So with that said. I think the new die shoud have the following.

Purple = Monkey, Monkey, Rabit, Rabit, Banna, Turttle. Becoming a 8 sided dice with only 6 sides.

Isn't 500 hits a bit too much for a single dice roll?

We tried this. Someone in our group got the trek dice from someone who quit the game so we could try it. It was SUPER broken. We made it a 4 point modification at first and all it did was change a single red dice to that dice. It was really dumb on unique pilots. Wedge became a monster of epic proportions. Tycho was an a-wing that hit just like if not better than an xwing. Its just not balanced for small ships. Ties were worse. Someone took as many academies as possible with this upgrade, it was to many hits the games were over so fast, Vader was dumb. The big ships were even worse and if you had a 360 arc you were overkilling ties by a hit or more if you were ever in range one and simply doing at least 2 damage if they werent. Navigator fett was mean...Han was.....

I think if they add new dice with different statistics or markings then they should only be applicable to the capital ships that have not been release yet. They can balance them for the new dice. We even tried other things like making it a systems mod and nothing else was worth taking but bwings. As far as my group can consider any bonus or upgrade adding that die to any ship is worth at least 10 points. It just changes the hit and dodge mechanic so much. We tried out around 30 individual games with the usual lists, being XXXX, tie swarm, Han shoots first etc. it was simply to powerful. GW would be proud.

However, IF they HAVE to add it then it SHOULD NOT BE SPECIAL. It needs to come with a ship and should be readilly available to both factions and every player. With that said FFG has done a spectacular job of managing balance and making each faction feel unique so if they add it i am sure it will be to the best implementation possible.

Okay RedFive back in brainstorm mode. this is a theory and has not been put to practice or play test yet. this is the THREAD for R&D on this item, so...lets talk.

this would be a good promo item or maybe a new die that could come with a new weapon upgrade or skill upgrade or a new class of card a WEAPONS MODIFICATION card. the agility die could go with a new ship or a ships modification so any ship could take it. or maybe it could be sold as the two dice set with the upgrade cards and a few pilots for already exsisting ships, tournoment prize....the list goes on

its a single attack die and a single agility die.

each one has:

1. Attack( red): blank, blank, focus, focus, hit, crit, double hit, double crit.

2 Agility ( green): blank, blank, focus, focus, evade, evade, double focus, double evasion.

these dice are added to your pool so if your ship has three agility, you can take two basic die + the new agility die. Likewize with the attack die.

so what do ya think?

This actually reminds me a lot of the dice results you get when playing Edge of the Empire.

If you were going for an extra die, I'd be inclined to move away from 8-sided to make it even easier to differentiate.

A D6 with Crit/2xHit/Hit/Focus/Focus/Blank maintains the chance of a hit overall at 50% but with a slightly higher Crit chance and that Double-Hit in there it nicely represents a ship with more powerful guns. Or 4xHit, Focus, Blank to represent accurate guns but slightly weaker guns (no chance of a crit).

A D6 with Evade/Evade/Evade/Focus/Blank/Blank increases your Evade chance from 37.5% to 50%, but reduces your Focus chance.

Or for more granularity, go with d10s, where it's easier to have a more subtle shift in the probabilities. Crit x2, Hit x3, Focus x3, Blank x2 increases chance of a crit while maintaining overall to-hit at 50%, and changes Focus/Blank probability from 25%/25"% to 30%/20%. Similarly, Evade x4, Focus x3, Blank x3 increases Evade chance from 37.5% to 40%, Focus from 25% to 30% and Blank from 37.5% to 30%. That might be a better option if you want to the new die to just be a little bit better, but not a lot.