So as I've mentioned before, I play a Sarge in my OW group.
At the beginning I thought I could use f.ex. Inspire to buff my group, and that I would build my character as mainly a buffer and supporter.
Now I have come to realize that is not an option, and I'm trying to figure out how I should build my char.
Here are his stats, skills and talents:

WS BS St Tg Ag In Pe WP Fe
30 35 30 40 30 30 24 30 45

Skills:
Common Lore (AdMech, Tech+10), Linguistics (Low Gothic, Techna Lingua), Logic, Tech-Use, Command, Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis)

Talents:
Weapon Training (Chain, Las, Low-Tech), Air of Authority, Peer (AdMech), Bombardier, Tank Hunter, Technical Knock, Veteran Comrade, Get Them!, Resistance (Pinning), Radiant Presence, Swift Attack

Resistance (Pinning) is justified through the 'Other' category that Resistance lists, and my GM has ruled that with this, Radiant Presence also gives a bonus against Pinning.

And here are the things I've noted down that I might buy/that might go well.

'Core Sarge Stuff'
Command +10 -> +20
Dodge
Nerves of Steel -> Fearless
Ambidextrous
Combat Master
WS +5 -> +5 (to get WS 40)
Counter Attack
Double Team
Forward to Glory!

Distracting Strike

'Our team doesn't have this yet'

Inquiry
Munitorum Influence

Weapon Training

'Holy **** is this expensive'

Two-Weapon Wielder, Sidearm

What do you think, where should I go first, what am I missing?
Is Sidearm worth its cost?

I suppose he is not a combat character but a social/support one. In this case I would recommend the second batch, but take plus Willpower instead of the Weapon Training. Or maybe take +10 Intelligence and Combat Formation (one of the best team support Talents).

problem is, that your characteristics are awful for combat. Agility 30 + no Dodge is like a death sentence and Perception 24 + no Awareness make you want to go with the squad. You can't rush forward, you can't stay behind - you must hide in the ranks of your squaddies until the dust settles or you become a liability. Personally, I say you shouldn't force combat unless it is absolutely necessary or you have a team that can tolerate an inferior combat character (say, you have two Heavy Gunners and two Storm Troopers min/maxed for combat).

Ah, I should maybe mention that we're grenadiers, and have upgraded our armor to Best craftsmanship: I currently have 10pts of armor. I've taken to frag grenades to the face for 0 damage.
So I'm not entirely defenseless

And yeah, I'd optimized my stats to being decent in combat and good at commanding, because I thought that would help my squad most. So I'm reduced to a face character now, but without the Social aptitude and hence without some of the skills...
And possibly in a campaign where a face is a bit lost.


Why +WP?
Don't have my book now, but doesn't Combat formation just allow for Int bonus instead of Ag bonus? Which would be very weak so far.
I left Per alone because we've a sniper who does our recon; he has Awareness and high Per, so I figured I wouldn't need it. Was that wrong?

My experience with combat so far was that at range, I sucked because I got pinned, but that in Melee I cut through my enemies like a hot knife through butter. (Or rather a chainsword through flesh.)

Agility + Dodge is required to avoid stuff like Heavy Bolters and Krak Grenades. Yeah, you can soak small arms fire until the end of the world (90% of the OW characters can do this from the get-go), but once you face a lascannon you dodge or you are dead. And believe me, lasguns don't kill you. Lascannons do.

And you need +WP to resist Pinning, Fear and Psychic Powers. And Combat Formation also adds +1 Initiative and everyone in the team can use your Combat Formation Initiative. So you will have an Initiative of 5 with it and so everyone else in your Squad. It is huge .

Hmmm... May I ask what opponents you fight in the current campaign?

Hmm. Alright, yeah, I see your point. (In fact, that's my note about Dodge: "Yeah, 30% Dodge is sh*tty, but against a Lascannon 30% is still a LOT better than 10%!")
Buying Ag is going to be expensive, though -.-

Well, against Pinning I've got Resistance and the weapon customisation that gives another +5, and we've house-ruled that the bonuses for getting out of pinning also apply to resisting pinning. We felt it was far too good otherwise.
Fear and Psychic Powers: Yeah, those are gonna be a problem. Since we're on Hervara (though not, afaik, in the Final Testament or even a variant of it) we're fighting Dominate and Orks. Does the Dominate even have psykers?
And most of the Orks don't cause Fear, either, so I'm not too worried about those, although I AM eying Fearless.

Hm. That's a +2, at the price of two expensive characteristics increases and a talent. It doesn't seem to be that huge to me, tbh...

If you are playing Final Testament, then I guess you can have some success with improving your combat capabilities. Though, I must add, these improvements will be wasted XP later unless you continue to play the game on Easy Mode.

And I totally forgot that Sergeants have crappy aptitudes... My bad !

Then scrap Combat Formation, take Munitorium Influence and jump to Fearless with Nerves of Steel. Guess your GM will allow you to transfer Fearless to your teammates through Radiant Presence or something similar, because it would be quite awesome. After that, boost WS and get Dodge and/or Parry.

Like I said, we're not, afaik, in Final Testament. Our GM may have made a variant of it, though.
What do you mean they will be wasted, and what do you mean by Easy Mode? Our house-rule about Pinning?
There's an entire thread about that^^ TLDR: First session was VERY sluggish, as we were unable to do anything, because we didn't get out of pinning, ever. Second session (with house-rule) lots of fun, much more action.

Yeah. I'm a newb at this game, I didn't try to optimize before making the character!

While that would be awesome and quite appropriate to a heroic game, I'm not sure he'd allow it. Extending a bonus against fear to also apply to pinning is not quite the same as sharing your immunity with the squad... But I'll try to convince him, anyway
Thanks for the tips!

Fearless makes you immune to pinning too.

By Easy Mode, I meant the type and composition of opponents you encounter through the battles. Like, no heavy/special weapon guys running around in great numbers, no random vehicles supporting the enemy, no random support coming in to help the enemy (reinforcements, artillery, intel and such) and your opponents are suicidal morons. Exactly like in Final Testament.

Later on, when you "step up", things will become much more complicated and you will need more and better resources to fight the same problem: maybe your character can storm an ordinary bunker crewed by 6 average lasgun-totting rebel guardsmen but later on, the same bunker will have 4 heavy bolters with overlapping firing arcs, crewed by battle servitors and backed up by remote controlled mortars and an extensive minefield (not to mention the plasma gunner and the missile launcher guy who replaced 2 lasgunners). The problem with your character is that whatever you take to convert him into a combat character, you are stuck on the "average bunker with the 6 average guys" level and by the time you realize this, your Squad will be on the "super-bunker and a full combat team" level.

Yes, I know. What I meant was that he allowed extending the effect of Radiant Presence to Pinning, because that doesn't seem THAT big a deal. Using it to spread Fearless around seems a bit... more powerful?

Haha, yeah, I see what you mean.

Right, so if I understand you correctly, you're saying that even if I pour everything I have into combat, I will not be good enough at fighting to matter. So instead I should try to up the social/command aspect and talk my GM into allowing me to bring along the rest of the regiment? Or talk him into giving me Radiant Fearlessness, so that everyone else will rock?

Right, so if I understand you correctly, you're saying that even if I pour everything I have into combat, I will not be good enough at fighting to matter. So instead I should try to up the social/command aspect and talk my GM into allowing me to bring along the rest of the regiment? Or talk him into giving me Radiant Fearlessness, so that everyone else will rock?

Yeah, something like that. It is like the biggest letdown of the Sergeant specialization. Leave the combat for the Heavy Gunners/Weapon Specialists/Storm Troopers who have the bonuses and aptitudes to do that. You just stay behind, throw around some nice boosts and enjoy the show.

Oh, and if you take Munitorum Influence then maybe you should think about Persuasive Charm too (plus a Charm +10).

So overall, I would take something like this for the character (in this order):

- Nerves of Steel (450xp)

- Fearless (600xp)

- Munitorium Influence (450xp)

- Charm (+0) (200xp)

- Persuasive Charm (450xp)

- Charm (+10) (400xp)

- Dodge (+0) (200xp)

- +10 Weapon Skill (750xp)

Quite an expensive package, but at the end, you will have a rather well-rounded support character.

I should've realized it when I had such a hard time picking out a core characteristic to invest in...

In taking this package, I will go past 2500xp, where I'd like to switch to the Commander. The GM has made it clear that this needs to be earned in-game and that likely at 2500xp I wouldn't yet be able to make that switch. I'd been assuming that I should invest it into a +5 somewhere (WP, Fel, WS or Int even) but now I'm thinking it might make sense to go to Weapon Specialist until I hit the second milestone and level my combat abilities a bit...

And I still wonder about Sidearm. It's incredibly expensive and I'm not sure it's worth.

In taking this package, I will go past 2500xp, where I'd like to switch to the Commander. The GM has made it clear that this needs to be earned in-game and that likely at 2500xp I wouldn't yet be able to make that switch. I'd been assuming that I should invest it into a +5 somewhere (WP, Fel, WS or Int even) but now I'm thinking it might make sense to go to Weapon Specialist until I hit the second milestone and level my combat abilities a bit...

Actually, you will have everything from that package except the +10 WS. Maybe, you can even change your GM's opinion on the Commander switch by making your character into a logistics/supply officer with Munitorium Influence and Persuasive Charm. The right equipment on the right time can be a decisive factor, and someone who can make it happen will probably find himself in a commanding position quickly.

Also, in my opinion, Sidearm is a waste of experience points, unless you have some uber-brutal pistol (like the inferno pistol). Blade Dancer is much better.

Oooh, I like that idea!

Yes, isn't it? And if I can get the Inferno pistol, I can surely get a hellpistol or something to go with it, making Gunslinger the better choice.
Sidearm is nicely versatile, if you misjudge how fast the enemy can close into melee, but that shouldn't be worth all that much more than either of the other options...

I've spent my current train ride reading up on some of these options and going through them once more.
Now I'm not so sure that combat effectiveness is entirely impossible.

If I get to take Commander and take all the comrades I can, I effectively get another +20 WS/BS and quite often +16(20) damage! I can up this to +40 by taking Veteran Comrade to go with that. This would leave me with essentially +50 WS/BS, at 80/85 respectively, before any modifiers or improvements.

Wouldn't that make me able to compete nicely with with everyone else for combat effectiveness?

(And through Dig In! I could essentially become a one-man bunker to tank for the squad. +10AP would get me into reach of light vehicles!)

I've spent my current train ride reading up on some of these options and going through them once more.

Now I'm not so sure that combat effectiveness is entirely impossible.

If I get to take Commander and take all the comrades I can, I effectively get another +20 WS/BS and quite often +16(20) damage! I can up this to +40 by taking Veteran Comrade to go with that. This would leave me with essentially +50 WS/BS, at 80/85 respectively, before any modifiers or improvements.

Haha, yeah, but you can't go around with 4 guys following you everywhere . It is like, you are a Squad within the Squad... And it sounds a lot like a bottomless well of problems for me (like supplies/medical treatment/whatever for your buffcomrades, looking after their innocent souls and stuff like that).

Yes, wouldn't that be AWESOME Everyone should be commander just long enough to get the extra comrades, so that you'd end up with a 20 people squad!

Seriously though. Why shouldn't I be able to? Yes, it makes me vulnerable to strong splash attacks, like flamers or mortars (if they actually are strong) because my comrades are still not tough, even though I am. If I can avoid that though, by charging into mêlée or by cutting enemies down before they can unleash these attacks, I don't see the problem with having a larger than average squad.

I would recommend Parry, since you got a chainsword, and will surely end up in melee (either you want it or not) Parry is almost a required skill, and I *think*, not sure here, that you get it for cheap as well.

Parry is good choice but Dodge is a must skill as you can't parry missiles or area effects

Also Side Step talent is good choice as it gives you second reaction. Although you only can Dodge or Parry attack once.

Yeah, sorry, I forgot to mention it at the top, I already bought Parry, and Swift Attack, to make mêlée (my browser marks it as spelled wrong if I don't write it in French) a bit less risky and more powerful. And yeah, I got those for cheap

I realized that the Commander thing is very contradictory and depends entirely on the GM: Ranged Volley and Close Quarters can only be done by one comrade per turn (as stated on the Page the Commander is described), so they don't improve. More comrades just means more actions for orders, i.e. I can have a comrade do Ranged Volley, one doing Covering Fire, and one doing the Five Rounds Rapid etc.
EXCEPT!
Lasgun Volley explicitly gains an improved Bonus from having more than one Comrade participating in Ranged Volley!
So, can they or can't they?

I'll talk to my GM and decide on what I take based on what he rules.

Goddamit I really wanna like this game, because the setting and the fluff are awesome, but the rules are just SO. BADLY. WRITTEN. (and edited.)

Goddamit I really wanna like this game, because the setting and the fluff are awesome, but the rules are just SO. BADLY. WRITTEN. (and edited.)

Nah, it is just the poor Sergeant. You would have a different opinion if you played a Storm Trooper .

Well, the editing is a general thing and one that is just annoying. (Verhastites was the most grating one: It's Ver g hast, feth it!)

I do think that there are very many points where the rules are written vaguely or have not been entirely thought through. The 'Living' Errata are supposed to fix this, and in the points they answer, they do. They are not being updated afaict, however, and there are plenty other points that need clearing up.

Take Inspire, for example: Does it, or does it not apply to other players? Terrify doesn't, but it doesn't say so for Inspire (nor actually for Terrify, but there's a Talent for the Commissar to make it apply to PCs), because it uses the 'Follower' terminology from the previous games, which doesn't exist in this game anymore.

Or how do Micro-Beads, Air of Authority and Orders interact?

What's in the Basic Tools?

What's High Provender?

etc, etc.

The Commander is actually pretty good if your group has a few Stormtroopers since they can aid him in Ranged Volley making him even better