Played a few one shot and intro games and now in a campaign. Now that the dice are tumbling it seems that Talents are sort of weak or too expensive. If you have earned 50-60 exp it seems the payback is much better in buying skills versus talents. Now there are some abilities and advantages you get via talent tree you can not get or replicate with skills.

I can go into the number crunching of 150 exp and what you get for it with skills versus talent tree but not going to. Just wanted to see what people that have played 10+ sessions in a campaign think about this. Not worried about an exact case or class but overall feel people have.

Thanks.

AWAD-

Adjust Adapt Overcome, or be crushed

It really is a balancing act. I use pilots as an example, just having high skill ranks doesn't do much. You need the talents to really shine as a pilot, to the point that they are more important that having 5 ranks. During a chase or flying an asteroid you DO need the skill ranks, but open space, talents all the way - especially for fighters.

Played a few one shot and intro games and now in a campaign. Now that the dice are tumbling it seems that Talents are sort of weak or too expensive. If you have earned 50-60 exp it seems the payback is much better in buying skills versus talents. Now there are some abilities and advantages you get via talent tree you can not get or replicate with skills.

You've hit the nail on the head.

Now, it depends on a number of different factors. Is the GM providing opportunities for the players to use their talents? Are the skills being raised Upgrading dice or adding Proficiency dice (Because the latter is, indeed, much more effective)? What talents is the player investing in, and do they compliment his character's build and role in the party? And so on.

I like to look at each of my XP expenditures in its own right, while keeping an eye overall on where I'm going. For example, I've got 25 XP: do I want to spend it on ranks 2 & 3 of Ranged (Light) and upgrade 2 green dice to yellows, or do I want to spend it on 10 & 15 XP talents, garnering their benefits and moving farther down the talent tree?

Mechanic is another example of a specialization that is made much better from talents. Being able to fix more hull trauma and system strain is pretty important. For other specializations, talents that remove setback dice have a great effect on achieving positive results in your dice pools. If your GM doesn't throw setback dice into your pools, then talents like those will probably seem pretty useless.

It really depends on the Talent and for that reason it's hard to quantify. Gaining Boost die is pretty much always worth it (i.e. Stalker) but losing Setback die can be much more situational. An Upgrade can hit Triumph but a Talent like Skilled Jockey means even a giant, slow freighter handles like a Y-Wing. Skill ranks can't match the advantages brought by buying Bad Motivator or Inspiring Rhetoric, and the "heal/repair more wounds/strain" Talents are extremely potent.

Not all talents are created equal, there are definetly some that really help. My Assassin has become much more survivable in combat now that I have some dodge to increase the difficulty of those attacking her. Some can really make a character shine mechanically, and some just add some nice flavor. I tend to find the talents more interesting if nothing else so am happy to throw points at them.

I usually do a couple games to skills, then a couple games to talents, and just keep rotating through.

I think it's a matter of trying to decide what works best for your character, or in your specific campaign. For example, do you expect to be in or around institutes of learning all that often? That will determine whether bumping up ranks in your Scholar's Knowledge skills is a better idea than taking a path along the talent tree where you'll have to get ranks in Researcher. Talk to your GM about what direction(s) they plan on taking things, and see if they're open to suggestions from PCs (most are). In my game, when the Mechanic bought into the Slicer specialization that told my GM that the player probably wanted to do some slicing, and that should be included in future adventures.

As anecdotal evidence from my own group, we've all pursued different paths. The highly specialized Droid Merc Soldier has spent almost all of his XP going down the "shooting stuff" side of the talent tree, and went straight for Dedication. The Marauder bought into FS Exile early on, so big surprise!, he spent a lot of XP on force powers. The Wookiee Mechanic/Slicer is also talent-heavy, but one of his first goals was getting Mechanics and computers up to rank 3. My own Fringer has to cover a lot of bases, so the biggest chunk I've taken out of my talent tree is the whole Piloting/Astrogation sub-tree. After that I've overwhelmingly favored skill ranks.

Ultimately, take a look at your Talent Tree and try to decide what's worth getting and what's not. A moderately good talent might be a steal at 5 XP, while a better talent at 25 XP might not be worth it. Compare paths through the talent tree with how many skill ranks you could get for that XP amount, and that might help inform your decision.

As has been said, I think it really does boil down to character concept when it comes to deciding whether to purchase talents or more ranks in your key skills.

I'm currently playing a F/S Scoundrel, and the bulk of my XP so far has been spent on talents, particularly those for the Jedi Initiate that the GM is allowing me to use as it brings me closer to that much coveted Force Rating talent. A few were spent on a rank of Piloting (Space) as nobody else had the skill and it gave my character something to actually do on the ship and then a few more on the Sense power so that I could buy the Duration Upgrade. As time goes on, I'll probably be spending most of my XP on talents. Not sure how far into Scoundrel I'll go, as the primary reason I took that particular career/specialization combo was for the career skills offered and the combat-related talents (particularly Side Step and maybe Quick Strike), especially as I'll have at least two (maybe even three) Force Powers to develop (at least another 30 on Sense, a bunch on Move, and then deciding whether I want to take Enhance or Foresee as his third power).

For me at least, talents are nice because they offer new actions or provide a subtle boost to skills. As Dave Sunstriker said, if your GM doesn't make use of setback dice (there were a couple over on the d20 Radio forums that simply upgraded the difficulty for situations where setback dice are warranted), then a number of talents aren't that useful and could appear to be a waste of XP.

Thanks for the answers. It does seem to lend itself to the idea that Skills are more important out of the gate but lose their luster after Rank 2 or 3. Class type is even more crucial to how you split up your points. Also I have played only 3 trees and 2 under the Hired Gun area. I have read all of them but if you are not playing that type you are not digging in.

The point about setback die is crucial point. Sort of a waste if they are used sparingly by the GM.

The reason this came up was the alligator graph issue. Unlike many other games as you get better and succeed you do not get more EXP to help with the more expensive talents and skills. So you are having to wait a couple sessions to buy the level 4 talent versus level 4 skill that gives you YYYY and makes you a stud in that area. This is why I was thinking about it.

All the best and this makes me think a little more. Hope the same to the lurkers.

AWAD-

Adjust Adapt Overcome, or be crushed

You'll find that skills top off right around the point you get close to rolling full yellow dice. What I mean by this is if you have 3 in an attribute, 3 in a skill will allow you to roll 3 yellow dice to make the check. Each rank in a skill beyond this only adds additional green die. Since the yellow dice are significantly better then the green, rolling an entire handful of yellow dice is paramount for the skill. After that, the addition of a green die (while nice) isn't as good as talents.

For me, this means increasing skills to full yellow is a better investment of experience then points in skills after full yellow. This is especially true in the beginning of the game, when those first 2 or 3 ranks of a skill can be obtained cheaply, whereas taking the skill to 5 for one or two additional green dice is a large investment of points that can be better spent elsewhere. And talents are about in the middle. Talents, while good, aren't often as good as additional yellow dice in the roll. Exceptions will always be abound of course, as talents like Bad Motivator, Inspiring Rhetoric, and Defensive Stance come to mind (to name a few).

So my upgrade chart is the following: Skill ranks in skills I care most about to match the attribute they use (full yellow), Talents, then additional skills. Of course my priorities shift if I decide to take on another specialization. The only time I jump the priority list is if there is an especially good talent that I need to get soon.

But there is a power curve to skills, and they drop off significantly after you get past the related attribute.

You'll find that skills top off right around the point you get close to rolling full yellow dice. What I mean by this is if you have 3 in an attribute, 3 in a skill will allow you to roll 3 yellow dice to make the check. Each rank in a skill beyond this only adds additional green die. Since the yellow dice are significantly better then the green, rolling an entire handful of yellow dice is paramount for the skill. After that, the addition of a green die (while nice) isn't as good as talents.

For me, this means increasing skills to full yellow is a better investment of experience then point points in skills after full yellow. This is especially true in the beginning of the game, when those first 2 or 3 ranks of a skill can be obtained cheaply, whereas taking the skill to 5 for one or two additional green dice is a large investment of points that can be better spent elsewhere. And talents are about in the middle. Talents, while good, aren't often as good as additional yellow dice in the roll. Exceptions will always be abound of course, as talents like Bad Motivator, Inspiring Rhetoric, and Defensive Stance come to mind (to name a few).

So my upgrade chart is the following: Skill ranks in skills I care most about to match the attribute they use (full yellow), Talents, then additional skills. Of course my priorities shift if I decide to take on another specialization. The only time I jump the priority list is if there is an especially good talent that I need to get soon.

But there is a power curve to skills, and they drop off significantly after you get past the related attribute.

Using your logic, wouldn't it be best to take the skill to one greater than the linked characteristic, thus allowing it to be upgraded when spendding Destiny?

You'll find that skills top off right around the point you get close to rolling full yellow dice. What I mean by this is if you have 3 in an attribute, 3 in a skill will allow you to roll 3 yellow dice to make the check. Each rank in a skill beyond this only adds additional green die. Since the yellow dice are significantly better then the green, rolling an entire handful of yellow dice is paramount for the skill. After that, the addition of a green die (while nice) isn't as good as talents.

For me, this means increasing skills to full yellow is a better investment of experience then point points in skills after full yellow. This is especially true in the beginning of the game, when those first 2 or 3 ranks of a skill can be obtained cheaply, whereas taking the skill to 5 for one or two additional green dice is a large investment of points that can be better spent elsewhere. And talents are about in the middle. Talents, while good, aren't often as good as additional yellow dice in the roll. Exceptions will always be abound of course, as talents like Bad Motivator, Inspiring Rhetoric, and Defensive Stance come to mind (to name a few).

So my upgrade chart is the following: Skill ranks in skills I care most about to match the attribute they use (full yellow), Talents, then additional skills. Of course my priorities shift if I decide to take on another specialization. The only time I jump the priority list is if there is an especially good talent that I need to get soon.

But there is a power curve to skills, and they drop off significantly after you get past the related attribute.

Using your logic, wouldn't it be best to take the skill to one greater than the linked characteristic, thus allowing it to be upgraded when spendding Destiny?

It depends really.

If you are talking about a characteristic that's a two and taking the skill to three then yes, that's not a bad investment. It's only, what 15 xp to take a skill from 2 to 3? I guess it depends on how often you'd think about blowing destiny for that one skill. Probably shouldn't be using that skill, or at least not be the character in the party using that skill.

The math is a bit tougher the further you go up the curve. If you have an Attribute of 4 and a skill of 4... taking that skill from 4 to 5 is.. what 25 xp? 30 for a non-class skill? That's two to three sessions worth of xp, for the benefit of maybe that one time possibly in this certain situation when a destiny point is available...

You'll find that skills top off right around the point you get close to rolling full yellow dice. What I mean by this is if you have 3 in an attribute, 3 in a skill will allow you to roll 3 yellow dice to make the check. Each rank in a skill beyond this only adds additional green die. Since the yellow dice are significantly better then the green, rolling an entire handful of yellow dice is paramount for the skill. After that, the addition of a green die (while nice) isn't as good as talents.

From all the statistics work I've seen on this system, adding a green die is comparable to the benefit of upgrading a green to yellow.

As others have said, some talents are worth their cost while others aren't. You have to be judicious in deciding what talents are worth buying and what aren't. Frequently used skills are almost always worth their xp, but talents can give you abilities that skill alone cannot replicate.

You'll find that skills top off right around the point you get close to rolling full yellow dice. What I mean by this is if you have 3 in an attribute, 3 in a skill will allow you to roll 3 yellow dice to make the check. Each rank in a skill beyond this only adds additional green die. Since the yellow dice are significantly better then the green, rolling an entire handful of yellow dice is paramount for the skill. After that, the addition of a green die (while nice) isn't as good as talents.

From all the statistics work I've seen on this system, adding a green die is comparable to the benefit of upgrading a green to yellow.

Not entirely true. A green die has 4 faces of 8 with at least 1 success, and only one of those 4 has two successes.

A yellow die has 8 faces of 12 with at least 1 success, two of those 8 faces have two successes and one face is a triumph.

Your chances are greater in rolling not just number of successes overall but multiple successes (and not to mention triumphs) with yellow die upgrades over green.

When you look at the percentages a green die is nice, but its not nearly as good as upgrading a green for a yellow when you take everything into consideration.

It is true that throwing a YYY will result in more successes than a GGGG (although not by much). However the following statements also true:

• YGGG will be more successful than GGGG
• GGGGB will be more successful than YGGG
• GGGGG will be more successful than YGGG and GGGGB

Obviously, the more yellow dice you throw, the more Triumphs you will likely get so that factors into your dice pool results as well. The takeaway is that if you want a better chance of success (damage, activating abilities with advantage, etc.) then you should generally throw more dice. If you want a better chance at glory and triumph, upgrade a die.

You'll find that skills top off right around the point you get close to rolling full yellow dice. What I mean by this is if you have 3 in an attribute, 3 in a skill will allow you to roll 3 yellow dice to make the check. Each rank in a skill beyond this only adds additional green die. Since the yellow dice are significantly better then the green, rolling an entire handful of yellow dice is paramount for the skill. After that, the addition of a green die (while nice) isn't as good as talents.

From all the statistics work I've seen on this system, adding a green die is comparable to the benefit of upgrading a green to yellow.

Not entirely true. A green die has 4 faces of 8 with at least 1 success, and only one of those 4 has two successes.

A yellow die has 8 faces of 12 with at least 1 success, two of those 8 faces have two successes and one face is a triumph.

Your chances are greater in rolling not just number of successes overall but multiple successes (and not to mention triumphs) with yellow die upgrades over green.

When you look at the percentages a green die is nice, but its not nearly as good as upgrading a green for a yellow when you take everything into consideration.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here. Yes, rolling a yellow die is better than rolling a green die. That isn't what's being measured, though. What I'm comparing is upgrading an existing die vs. adding a whole new die.

(this is an gross oversimplification of the statistics, but it illustrates my point)

When you consider the dice in aggregate (meaning when you are rolling multiple dice multiple times), green dice have 5 successes over 8 results, and yellow have 10 over 12. That's 62.5% vs 83.3%. Yes, the yellow is better, but only around 20% so. Compare that 20% gain with the full value of adding a green die.

Now, again, these numbers and system aren't how it all plays out. I'm just trying to illustrate what I'm talking about.

From what I remember during beta the stats showed that they were comparable (so YYY had a similar chance of success to YYGG). There was a big debate, so it's not like they are exactly the same, but they were close enough to have the debate.

All in all, I wouldn't blow off green dice so easily, especially when comparing them to talents.

EDIT: I dug around and looked at some of the threads and found this online calculator. Adding a green die is actually better than upgrading a to a yellow when just factoring for chance of success. The debate is over secondary results and triumphs and which is better to have.

I get what your saying, but I don't think you get what I'm saying.

Yes, adding a green die when there isn't a green die is only going to help, not hurt your chances. However, at what point is that extra green die worth the xp you spent on it?

Run that generator you just pointed out with YYY and YYYG and look at the difference. Now ask yourself if that 4% total increase (which actually goes down for 1 or 2 successes for some reason, making me think the calculator is slightly off) between YYY and YYYG is worth the 20 points of xp you spent on it.

That's the point I'm making. At the high end of skills, rank 4 and rank 5 cost a lot in xp. But are they really worth it? Sure, one extra die is helpful, and will never hurt your chances. But when you factor in that 20 to 25 points (more if the skill is not a class skill) can buy you a nice talent or two (or three), you get more bang for your xp going that route then rank 5.

Of course 4 Green dice will roll you about the same success rate as 3 yellow, but the difference is that 23% chance to roll Triumph, which you get for 3 yellow and have 0% for 4 green. So I'm not saying extra green dice are worthless. I'm just saying that they are and should be valued less then yellow dice and perhaps less then talents, depending on what is available to your class.

So I'm not "blowing off green dice". I think they are fine, especially at low levels. Only you can look at the talent tree and think, hmm, I'd rather have this nice talent and this nice talent instead of waiting two RP sessions to get a 4% increase in success.