Resistances

By xenobiotica, in Dark Heresy Rules Questions

Posted at

Varius said:

You arent dodging the poison, you are dodging the knife. If someone was spraying poison at you, you would get a bonus, whether it is because you know enough about poison to shut your eyes and not let any get on your skin, or various other reasons.

With a firebolt, you are actually dodging the power itself, not the effect of the power, like you would if you were flinging things at a person like rocks. And psychic fire works differently then normal fire, because it bypasses demonic traits, so it makes sense that a person who is resistant to it would more often then not take less damage from it. For simplicity of the rules, it just adds a +10 to the dodge test. In game description terms it could be for any number of reasons. If I am resistant to fire, I might not have to be as quick as everyone else to get out of the way and still avoid the negative effects of it.

The text is fairly clear about it, so I dont know why we are still having this discussion. If you want to change it, go ahead, start a thread in the house rules section, but the rules state that it helps you avoid.

Resistance (Poison) does not give you knowledge about how poisons work, that's reserved for Chem-Use and/or Scholastic Lore (Chymistry). People who are subjected to certain toxins or poisons enough can build up a resistance, or even immunity, to them. But that doesn't mean that they can better dodge the attack of a spitting cobra.

And what about Las weapons, they do E damage, and can clearly cause burns, even set a man on fire due to critical damage. Can you seriously argue that a person with Resistance (Heat) would gain a +10 to dodge those weapons? And see the paragraph below before you answer.

Ok, for the third time: a miss is a miss, and a hit is a hit; a miss is not, I repeat: not , a hit that didn't do any damage. That would be a hit that either didn't pass through your armour or did little enough damage that you were able to shake it off due to your toughness bonus.

In my opinion, we are still having this discussion because you seem to ignore (or don't understand) simple logic. And the fact is, the text is not as clear as you'd like to think, it is subject to interpretation. I'm not claiming to know the intent of the words, but I found some serious flaws in letting resistance add to your chance to dodge, and I don't think that was intended, and since you've so far failed to convince me otherwise, it just might go on a bit longer.

Posted at

Well to toss in my two cents, I think some folks are putting way too much weight on one word which appears only once in regards to the Resistance talents. Avoid is just one word in one sentence. When looking at the description (and name) of the talent, the word "resistance" or derivatives there of comes up 5 times (6 if you count it's quick entry on the talent chart on page 112). The idea of resisting something seems to be far more important then the idea of avoiding something. The word avoid might have been included to describe situations where avoiding is the same as resisting, such as in the cases of Fear where resisting the welling fear boiling up inside of you would be the same as avoiding the fear welling up in you. That's just conjecture though.

The way I read the talent, it is meant to convey resisting something to avoid it's effect. Since "resist" is far more important then "avoid" (otherwise "avoid" would have been used more then "resist"), when looking at any of the talent groups and deciding what the talent covers, it should be plugged into the fallowing sentence, where "x" is the category/item/object that the Resistance talent covers -ie. Resistance(x).

You resist x to avoid x's effect.

For instance, with Resistance (cold) you resist cold to avoid being frost bitten. You resist the ice cold waters to avoid hypothermia. You, however, do not avoid the snowball to resist having cold show fall down your shirt. Seeing as how avoid only appears once and in an almost throw-away manner, it's safe to assume that, as I stated, resistance is far more important and, as such, needs to appear in any situation involving the talent and it's effects. Now, in order to resist something, the one doing the resisting must, in some way, fight against it and it's effects. In order to do that, the acting force's effects must be working against the thing which will resist it -if they don't, then there's nothing for the resisting force to resist. As such, the snowball must make contact before the character can resist it's cold. This is true of poison (the poison must be in a position to act against the character for them to resist it and avoid it's effects), fear (the cause of the fear must be present and capable of causing the fear in the character in order for them to resist the fear and avoid the effects of being frightened), heat (the heat's energy must be in contact with the character in order for him to resist it and avoid it's effects), etc. While psychic powers are a bit more diverse with all kinds of special rules and a whole chapter, they still should fallow the same pattern as all other things under the Resistance umbrella otherwise resisting them would have a completely separate talent.

With psychic powers, you resist compel to avoid being compelled. You resist Blood Boil to avoid having your blood boiled. All that you have to do is ask your self what the effect is and that will tell you what is being avoided through resistance. With the all time favorite example of Firebolt, the effect is Burning. As such, Burning (the effect) is what you are avoiding, not the firebolt (the cause), not the psyker (the cause of the firebolt and, as such, the cause of the burning) or the psyker's mother (the cause of the psyker and, as such, is yet another cause of the burning). You have to resist the firebolt to avoid the burning. Avoiding the firebolt to avoid the burning places too much importance on avoiding and completely dose away with resistance which, judging from the amount of times resistance is used, seems to fly in the face of the spirit of the talent. Avoiding the Firebolt to resist the burning doesn't make a whole lot of sense since, in order to resist something it must be acting against you. The only way to have both resist (needed due to it's apparent importance to the talent) and avoid together in relation to firebolt is to resist the firebolt to avoid the burning. While, normally I would say that Resistance (Psychic Powers) only effects powers that can be resisted (it seems like common sense to me) if one really wanted to push the exact wording of the talent and focus on one throw-away word, then the best a character could hope for in the case of Firebolt would be a +10 to their Toughness in order to resist the Burning (damage) and reduce it's damage by one extra point.

Posted at

xenobiotica said:

Resistance (Poison) does not give you knowledge about how poisons work, that's reserved for Chem-Use and/or Scholastic Lore (Chymistry). People who are subjected to certain toxins or poisons enough can build up a resistance, or even immunity, to them. But that doesn't mean that they can better dodge the attack of a spitting cobra.

And what about Las weapons, they do E damage, and can clearly cause burns, even set a man on fire due to critical damage. Can you seriously argue that a person with Resistance (Heat) would gain a +10 to dodge those weapons? And see the paragraph below before you answer.

Ok, for the third time: a miss is a miss, and a hit is a hit; a miss is not, I repeat: not , a hit that didn't do any damage. That would be a hit that either didn't pass through your armour or did little enough damage that you were able to shake it off due to your toughness bonus.

In my opinion, we are still having this discussion because you seem to ignore (or don't understand) simple logic. And the fact is, the text is not as clear as you'd like to think, it is subject to interpretation. I'm not claiming to know the intent of the words, but I found some serious flaws in letting resistance add to your chance to dodge, and I don't think that was intended, and since you've so far failed to convince me otherwise, it just might go on a bit longer.

There are some toxins you can never build up a resistance to, yet you would still get the bonus. Hell, you get a bonus to toxins that you have never encountered before, that should affect you just like everybody else.

"Lasweapons emit a highly focused beam of light. The short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid temperature change on the target's surface that it vaporises in a small explosion." Truthfully I dont know how its possible to dodge light at all . If you really want to get into the physics of it, its just as easy to dodge the speed of light as a thrown rock, or as a swung battleaxe. In what realm of thinking can you dodge a bullet after it is fired from the gun?

Think of it this way: 2 guys standing over a fire, same distance from the fire, same in every way except one has hair and a full long beard, and uses alot of hair spray etc. The other is completely bald. The bald one will represent someone who is resistant to fire. Now, a can they had in the fire explodes, sending fire everywhere. Both dodge out of the way, to avoid the flames. The guy with no hair does it successfully, he is out of the way of the blast and fire. A stray spark lands on him, but just goes out. The guy with the large hair and hair spray, dodged equally quickly, and just as well, but because of the amount of hair he has, a stray spark hits him and he goes up like a light, burning most of his face and head.

In game terms, if both made the dodge test, neither would have taken damage, meaning the hairy guy wouldnt have to test to be on fire. But if both missed the dodge, both would have taken damage from the fire's initial blast.

So in essence, the bald guy doesnt have to dodge the fire as much to avoid the negative effects of it.

But...I understand your point, I do. I just dont agree at all.

I really want you to find me one situation where you would get a +10 to "avoid" something without it involving reaction time.

Posted at

Varius said:

I really want you to find me one situation where you would get a +10 to "avoid" something without it involving reaction time.

Resistance (Poison) will give you a +10 to avoid dying no matter how fast or slow on the uptake you are.

Resistance (Cold) will allow you to avoid getting hypothermia from being out in a blizzard with no coat no matter how slow on the up-take you are.

Resistance (Heat) will give you a +10 to avoid passing out after a forced march in 120 degree dry heat no matter how slow you're crawling by that time...

Edit:
Either way, I think, as pointed out in posts above, you are confusing not getting hit with not taking damage. If not taking damage from an attack was the same as not getting hit by an attack, then one could argue that an Ogryn is as nimble as an Eldar. After all, if for some odd reason an Eldar attacked an Ogryn with a steak knife, chances are, the Eldar would succeed in his attack roll but fail to score enough damage to get past the Ogryns TB. By your logic, the Ogryn wouldn't be taking damage because he was nimbly dancing around every blow the Eldar struck instead of just having skin that can resist being cut by such a small weapon.

Edit #2:

Oh, and on the example of the two fellas and the fire, again I think you're thinking about things in the wrong way. When that can explodes, both individuals have the same chance of getting the heck out of the way before the fire can touch them, thus the same dodge score. If they both get out of the way, then neither will take damage as they both got out of the way. If a stray spark lands on one of them after they got out of the way, that woudn't be damage from the explosion of fire, but a possible ignition source for a new fire that would ignite on the character themselves. That situation is what an Agl check to avoid being caught on fire if one takes damage from fire is for. So, if the same kind of spark hits both men, then the GM should simply rule that the one who is less combustible gets a +10 to the Agl test to avoid catching fire. They both had the same chance to avoid being scorched by the sudden explosion as ones combustibility wouldn't matter at all in that instance (the fire would scorch a rock the same as it would a stack of paper... the paper would just end up catching fire and actually burning afterwards).

Posted at

Graver said:

Well to toss in my two cents, I think some folks are putting way too much weight on one word which appears only once in regards to the Resistance talents. Avoid is just one word in one sentence. When looking at the description (and name) of the talent, the word "resistance" or derivatives there of comes up 5 times (6 if you count it's quick entry on the talent chart on page 112). The idea of resisting something seems to be far more important then the idea of avoiding something. The word avoid might have been included to describe situations where avoiding is the same as resisting, such as in the cases of Fear where resisting the welling fear boiling up inside of you would be the same as avoiding the fear welling up in you. That's just conjecture though.

The way I read the talent, it is meant to convey resisting something to avoid it's effect. Since "resist" is far more important then "avoid" (otherwise "avoid" would have been used more then "resist"), when looking at any of the talent groups and deciding what the talent covers, it should be plugged into the fallowing sentence, where "x" is the category/item/object that the Resistance talent covers -ie. Resistance(x).

You resist x to avoid x's effect.

For instance, with Resistance (cold) you resist cold to avoid being frost bitten. You resist the ice cold waters to avoid hypothermia. You, however, do not avoid the snowball to resist having cold show fall down your shirt. Seeing as how avoid only appears once and in an almost throw-away manner, it's safe to assume that, as I stated, resistance is far more important and, as such, needs to appear in any situation involving the talent and it's effects. Now, in order to resist something, the one doing the resisting must, in some way, fight against it and it's effects. In order to do that, the acting force's effects must be working against the thing which will resist it -if they don't, then there's nothing for the resisting force to resist. As such, the snowball must make contact before the character can resist it's cold. This is true of poison (the poison must be in a position to act against the character for them to resist it and avoid it's effects), fear (the cause of the fear must be present and capable of causing the fear in the character in order for them to resist the fear and avoid the effects of being frightened), heat (the heat's energy must be in contact with the character in order for him to resist it and avoid it's effects), etc. While psychic powers are a bit more diverse with all kinds of special rules and a whole chapter, they still should fallow the same pattern as all other things under the Resistance umbrella otherwise resisting them would have a completely separate talent.

With psychic powers, you resist compel to avoid being compelled. You resist Blood Boil to avoid having your blood boiled. All that you have to do is ask your self what the effect is and that will tell you what is being avoided through resistance. With the all time favorite example of Firebolt, the effect is Burning. As such, Burning (the effect) is what you are avoiding, not the firebolt (the cause), not the psyker (the cause of the firebolt and, as such, the cause of the burning) or the psyker's mother (the cause of the psyker and, as such, is yet another cause of the burning). You have to resist the firebolt to avoid the burning. Avoiding the firebolt to avoid the burning places too much importance on avoiding and completely dose away with resistance which, judging from the amount of times resistance is used, seems to fly in the face of the spirit of the talent. Avoiding the Firebolt to resist the burning doesn't make a whole lot of sense since, in order to resist something it must be acting against you. The only way to have both resist (needed due to it's apparent importance to the talent) and avoid together in relation to firebolt is to resist the firebolt to avoid the burning. While, normally I would say that Resistance (Psychic Powers) only effects powers that can be resisted (it seems like common sense to me) if one really wanted to push the exact wording of the talent and focus on one throw-away word, then the best a character could hope for in the case of Firebolt would be a +10 to their Toughness in order to resist the Burning (damage) and reduce it's damage by one extra point.

So you are assuming that the avoid has the same meaning as resist in the sentence. I can accept that. But they didnt say "Resist to avoid" or "resist and avoid", its "resist or avoid" leaving it open to dodge and any "avoidance" skills.

Because you can dodge a fireball to avoid being burnt by the fire.

Resistance (Poison) will give you a +10 to avoid dying no matter how fast or slow on the uptake you are.

Resistance (Cold) will alolow you to avoid getting hypothermia from being out in a blizard with no coat no matter how slow on the up-take you are.

Resistance (Heat) will give you a +10 to avoid passing out after a forced march in 120 degree dry heat no matter how slow you're crawling by that time...

Sorry I meant without it also meaning resist

Posted at

Graver said:

Edit:
Either way, I think, as pointed out in posts above, you getting not getting hit confused with not taking damage. If not taking damage from an attack was the same as not getting hit by an attack, then one could argue that an Ogryn is as nimble as an Eldar. After all, if for some odd reason an Eldar attacked an Ogryn with a steak knife, chances are, the Eldar would succeed in his attack roll but fail to score enough damage to get past the Ogryns TB. By your logic, the Ogryn wouldn't be taking damage because he was nimbly dancing around every blow the Eldar struck instead of just having skin that can resist being cut by such a small weapon.

I guess Ill concede for now. Im not completely convinced, but I will agree your way makes sense.

Posted at

Varius said:

There are some toxins you can never build up a resistance to, yet you would still get the bonus. Hell, you get a bonus to toxins that you have never encountered before, that should affect you just like everybody else.

"Lasweapons emit a highly focused beam of light. The short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid temperature change on the target's surface that it vaporises in a small explosion." Truthfully I dont know how its possible to dodge light at all . If you really want to get into the physics of it, its just as easy to dodge the speed of light as a thrown rock, or as a swung battleaxe. In what realm of thinking can you dodge a bullet after it is fired from the gun?

Think of it this way: 2 guys standing over a fire, same distance from the fire, same in every way except one has hair and a full long beard, and uses alot of hair spray etc. The other is completely bald. The bald one will represent someone who is resistant to fire. Now, a can they had in the fire explodes, sending fire everywhere. Both dodge out of the way, to avoid the flames. The guy with no hair does it successfully, he is out of the way of the blast and fire. A stray spark lands on him, but just goes out. The guy with the large hair and hair spray, dodged equally quickly, and just as well, but because of the amount of hair he has, a stray spark hits him and he goes up like a light, burning most of his face and head.

In game terms, if both made the dodge test, neither would have taken damage, meaning the hairy guy wouldnt have to test to be on fire. But if both missed the dodge, both would have taken damage from the fire's initial blast.

So in essence, the bald guy doesnt have to dodge the fire as much to avoid the negative effects of it.

But...I understand your point, I do. I just dont agree at all.

I really want you to find me one situation where you would get a +10 to "avoid" something without it involving reaction time.

The little poison/toxin story was meant to focus on that the resistance someone can build up doesn't help them side step a spitting cobras attack any easier.

I don't think shaving off all your body hair would qualify as having Resistance (Heat). And the bald guy is technically not more "resistant" to the fire, he might be less likely to catch on fire, I would say that should be handled in RP terms. The Bald guy can basically sit closer to the fire without risking becoming a human torch.

If embers suddenly jumped out of the fire and landed on both these guys, I could consider giving the hairy one with all the hairspray a -10 penalty to his dodge or agility test. But the bald guy is no less likely to catch on fire than any other bald guy, even if he has Resistance (Heat).

As to the "avoid" challenge, I couldn't have said it better than Graver. Avoid is not just moving out of the way, or something like that, like I was saying before. A person who takes the left elevator instead of the right, which moments later plummeted to the ground because of faulty breaks, could be said to have avoided a certain death.

Posted at

Graver said:

Well to toss in my two cents, I think some folks are putting way too much weight on one word which appears only once in regards to the Resistance talents.

To be honest, it all seems like pedantry to me.

In regards to "A hit is a hit and a miss is a miss" - quite frankly, that's an extremely narrow point of view. Hitting and missing in game terms are a purely mechanical element for determining effect, with in-setting interpretations of that being a separate matter. A hit isn't necessarily a hit, in either sense, especially given the abstract nature of Wounds - a hit with a bolter isn't necessarily a direct hit that ploughs into the flesh and detonates to immediate lethal effect - it might just graze the flesh or scorch clothing as it streaks past, the worst narrowly avoided in a last-moment dodge (not the game mechanic Dodge, mind) that really took it out of the character, but similarly a miss might well have struck something nonessential and be irrelevant... it all depends on how you want to describe these things. All that a hit is in game terms is a successful attack, while a miss is an unsuccessful one... everything else is up for grabs. Description varies from character to character in whatever ways are appropriate to the context.

Lictors are fast and insanely agile creatures with the Acrobatics skill... but they're also 3m tall and weigh two tonnes, so the way they move about using their Acrobatics skill will be described differently to the Acrobatics skill possessed and used by a 2m, 60kg Eldar Harlequin wearing an anti-gravity flip-belt. Mechanically, the effect is the same, but the narrative flourishes are distinctly different.

Taking Resistance (Psychic Powers) for example: the character might well be just psychically aware enough (remembering that all humans have some degree or another of baseline psychic potential, even if it's insufficient to manifest as actual powers) to start reacting to a psychic attack fractions of a second earlier than someone without the talent, either shifting his body to elude a physically-manifested power, or steeling his thoughts against mental intrusion. It might instead or also be a minimal form of psychic blankness or other psy-resistance - the warp is simply less able to influence reality in your immediate presence, and thus warp-conjured flames burn less fiercely, telekinesis wavers in its constancy, telepathic intrusion becomes infested with irrelevant interference, etc, etc.

Dodging ranged attacks - you're not dodging the beam or projectile, you're dodging the attack. The character starts evading before the shot is fired, by moving out of the way of where your enemy is aiming.

Posted at

N0-1_H3r3 said:

To be honest, it all seems like pedantry to me.

In regards to "A hit is a hit and a miss is a miss" - quite frankly, that's an extremely narrow point of view. Hitting and missing in game terms are a purely mechanical element for determining effect, with in-setting interpretations of that being a separate matter. A hit isn't necessarily a hit, in either sense, especially given the abstract nature of Wounds - a hit with a bolter isn't necessarily a direct hit that ploughs into the flesh and detonates to immediate lethal effect - it might just graze the flesh or scorch clothing as it streaks past, the worst narrowly avoided in a last-moment dodge (not the game mechanic Dodge, mind) that really took it out of the character, but similarly a miss might well have struck something nonessential and be irrelevant... it all depends on how you want to describe these things. All that a hit is in game terms is a successful attack, while a miss is an unsuccessful one... everything else is up for grabs. Description varies from character to character in whatever ways are appropriate to the context.

Lictors are fast and insanely agile creatures with the Acrobatics skill... but they're also 3m tall and weigh two tonnes, so the way they move about using their Acrobatics skill will be described differently to the Acrobatics skill possessed and used by a 2m, 60kg Eldar Harlequin wearing an anti-gravity flip-belt. Mechanically, the effect is the same, but the narrative flourishes are distinctly different.

Taking Resistance (Psychic Powers) for example: the character might well be just psychically aware enough (remembering that all humans have some degree or another of baseline psychic potential, even if it's insufficient to manifest as actual powers) to start reacting to a psychic attack fractions of a second earlier than someone without the talent, either shifting his body to elude a physically-manifested power, or steeling his thoughts against mental intrusion. It might instead or also be a minimal form of psychic blankness or other psy-resistance - the warp is simply less able to influence reality in your immediate presence, and thus warp-conjured flames burn less fiercely, telekinesis wavers in its constancy, telepathic intrusion becomes infested with irrelevant interference, etc, etc.

Dodging ranged attacks - you're not dodging the beam or projectile, you're dodging the attack. The character starts evading before the shot is fired, by moving out of the way of where your enemy is aiming.

I was talking game mechanics when I said "a miss is a miss and a hit is a hit". Ordinary SP weapons are in reality pretty lethal, people might be able to shrug off the pain of a grazing or not-so-serious wound, but in reality, toughness wouldn't help you shrug off the actual trauma the bullet caused. Toughness is a game mechanic to allow a person to be hit by a bullet and not be affected by it. A persons toughness score is not indicative to how likely they are to suffer just a grazing hit. That, and armour, is why, when talking game mechanics, a miss is a miss and a hit is a hit.

The problem with your reasoning of Resistance (Psychic Powers), the way I see it anyway, is that all Resistance Talents should be treated to function in the same way. And if you use your way of thinking, then it's not a stretch to say that a person with Resistance (Heat) is aware enough to start reacting to heat sources faster than someone without the talent, and I would consider that to be nonsense. Resistance is not synonymous with hightened awareness.

Dodging a bullet or las blast is one thing, then you have to, to some extent, anticipate the attack. But I've seen a man catching arrows with his hands, and he has to react to the releasing of the string rather that anticipate when the string will be released. Same with a batter in baseball, although the batter has a few more clues as to when the throw is comming.

Posted at

Graver said:

While psychic powers are a bit more diverse with all kinds of special rules and a whole chapter, they still should fallow the same pattern as all other things under the Resistance umbrella otherwise resisting them would have a completely separate talent.

Hit the nail on the head. aplauso.gif

And to the arguments to characters being psychically aware enough to... This has come up a few times now. That's called psychic sensitivity, one of the antonyms of which is... Resistance. Sorry, that defeats the purpose of the Talent at that point. There is also a psychic power that grants this exact ability, its a minor one called Precognition.

And if you're trying to claim that Psychic Resistance is some mild form of Psychic blankness... Then how would a Psyker gain the talent?

Posted at

resist

verb
1. elude, especially in a baffling way; "This behavior defies explanation"

I think this definition of resist sums up the point I'm making.

Posted at

That has got the be the strangest definition of "resist" I've ever seen.

This definition from Merriam-Webster's website is more along the lines of how I would explain "resist":

intransitive verb
: to exert force in opposition
transitive verb
1 : to exert oneself so as to counteract or defeat <he resisted temptation>
2 : to withstand the force or effect of <material that resists heat>

Posted at

xenobiotica said:

That has got the be the strangest definition of "resist" I've ever seen.

This definition from Merriam-Webster's website is more along the lines of how I would explain "resist":

intransitive verb
: to exert force in opposition
transitive verb
1 : to exert oneself so as to counteract or defeat <he resisted temptation>
2 : to withstand the force or effect of <material that resists heat>

So tell me, in your own perception, how someone Resists Psychic Powers. What is it about them that makes them resistant?

Posted at

Arbentur said:

resist

verb
1. elude, especially in a baffling way; "This behavior defies explanation"

I think this definition of resist sums up the point I'm making.

/Facepalm

That's the definition of Defy, rather the transitive verb Defies... Granted defy is a synonym of resist, but not in that context.

Posted at

Arbentur said:

xenobiotica said:

That has got the be the strangest definition of "resist" I've ever seen.

This definition from Merriam-Webster's website is more along the lines of how I would explain "resist":

intransitive verb
: to exert force in opposition
transitive verb
1 : to exert oneself so as to counteract or defeat <he resisted temptation>
2 : to withstand the force or effect of <material that resists heat>

So tell me, in your own perception, how someone Resists Psychic Powers. What is it about them that makes them resistant?

Well, if your talking about resisting psychic powers that can be resisted, such as Compel, Blood Boil, Dominate, Inflict Pain... Your mind/soul is stronger than the average acolyte and you receive a +10 bonus on the will/toughness test needed to resist said power.

Posted at

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

Arbentur said:

resist

verb
1. elude, especially in a baffling way; "This behavior defies explanation"

I think this definition of resist sums up the point I'm making.

/Facepalm

That's the definition of Defy, rather the transitive verb Defies... Granted defy is a synonym of resist, but not in that context.

Resistance (Psychic Powers) defies reasoning. It defies logic. It's Psychic Powers. But then again your agreement with Graver and his even application of the rule would then support his commentary and literal interpretation (which he said would be strange but following the concept) that since there is no "make a test against the Psyker..." that it would in effect, like resisting poision, just increase your toughness by 10 giving you one point more of 'resistance' via your higher toughness versus the flames when hit.

Posted at

Arbentur said:

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

Arbentur said:

resist

verb
1. elude, especially in a baffling way; "This behavior defies explanation"

I think this definition of resist sums up the point I'm making.

/Facepalm

That's the definition of Defy, rather the transitive verb Defies... Granted defy is a synonym of resist, but not in that context.

Resistance (Psychic Powers) defies reasoning. It defies logic. It's Psychic Powers. But then again your agreement with Graver and his even application of the rule would then support his commentary and literal interpretation (which he said would be strange but following the concept) that since there is no "make a test against the Psyker..." that it would in effect, like resisting poision, just increase your toughness by 10 giving you one point more of 'resistance' via your higher toughness versus the flames when hit.

Wow... " Resistance (Psychic Powers) defies reasoning. It defies logic. " That's just... wow. Way to be... sorpresa.gif

Posted at

As for resisting psychic powers, I don't think that psychic powers are at all illogical or in defiance of reason (at least the internal logic of this fantasy setting). How are they illogical or in defiance of reason?

Most all of the psychic powers that allow the target to resist their effect, effect the targets mind, perceptions, or how their body functions which can be argued to be, to a degree, controlled by the targets own mind (biofeedback etc). I imagine learning to resist these powers would be akin to learning to resist torture and interrogation techniques as well as recognizing and dealing with intrusions in your mind before they can take root. That I can see a lot easer then anything dealing with manipulating the warp in order to not be manipulated by it or just being all around harder for the warp and it's effects (psychic powers) to touch you. That tends to be represented in game by psykers having a higher threshold when trying to effect the character and such a trait tends to effect more then just psychic powers but all things warp. If you make the Resistance (psychic powers) something along those lines, then why would such a resistance (or Avoidance) stop at just psychic powers?

Posted at

Clearly my injected humor into this long running back and forth is being more focused on then the points I try to make, but hey, such are perceptions. partido_risa.gif

Posted at

Arbentur said:

Clearly my injected humor into this long running back and forth is being more focused on then the points I try to make, but hey, such are perceptions. partido_risa.gif

You use the definition for Defies in place of Resist, and claim that it is the definition of Resist, and you expect me to focus on any other points you may try to make after that?

My perception would be that you are willing to misrepresent words in order to prove your point, not a very respectable thing to do, and quite frankly diminishes your credibility, so I'm sorry that I stopped taking you seriously. My deepest apologies.

Posted at

Graver said:

As for resisting psychic powers, I don't think that psychic powers are at all illogical or in defiance of reason (at least the internal logic of this fantasy setting). How are they illogical or in defiance of reason?

Most all of the psychic powers that allow the target to resist their effect, effect the targets mind, perceptions, or how their body functions which can be argued to be, to a degree, controlled by the targets own mind (biofeedback etc). I imagine learning to resist these powers would be akin to learning to resist torture and interrogation techniques as well as recognizing and dealing with intrusions in your mind before they can take root. That I can see a lot easer then anything dealing with manipulating the warp in order to not be manipulated by it or just being all around harder for the warp and it's effects (psychic powers) to touch you. That tends to be represented in game by psykers having a higher threshold when trying to effect the character and such a trait tends to effect more then just psychic powers but all things warp. If you make the Resistance (psychic powers) something along those lines, then why would such a resistance (or Avoidance) stop at just psychic powers?

Graver said:

As for resisting psychic powers, I don't think that psychic powers are at all illogical or in defiance of reason (at least the internal logic of this fantasy setting). How are they illogical or in defiance of reason?

Most all of the psychic powers that allow the target to resist their effect, effect the targets mind, perceptions, or how their body functions which can be argued to be, to a degree, controlled by the targets own mind (biofeedback etc). I imagine learning to resist these powers would be akin to learning to resist torture and interrogation techniques as well as recognizing and dealing with intrusions in your mind before they can take root. That I can see a lot easer then anything dealing with manipulating the warp in order to not be manipulated by it or just being all around harder for the warp and it's effects (psychic powers) to touch you. That tends to be represented in game by psykers having a higher threshold when trying to effect the character and such a trait tends to effect more then just psychic powers but all things warp. If you make the Resistance (psychic powers) something along those lines, then why would such a resistance (or Avoidance) stop at just psychic powers?

See, while you said it was one throw away word to perhaps at a stretch give someone a +10 to their toughness to 'resist' the damage thereby lowering the damage by one point, it would at least give a more even handed approach to the talent...and I'd think that if you were able to recognize certain 'markers' that go hand in hand with a psyker using their powers, why would your knowledge about how to mitigate an intrusion into your mind be limited to not figuring out how Psychic 'physical' attacks work and how to minimize those specific things under that same aegis?

The manipulating the warp jargon was a way to make people think about how the warp and thereby Psychic powers affect people and how if it's supposed to just be a blanket resist versus everything covered in the parentheses how it could be handled. Instead my humor ended up detracting from how I tried to explain my point.

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Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

Arbentur said:

Clearly my injected humor into this long running back and forth is being more focused on then the points I try to make, but hey, such are perceptions. partido_risa.gif

You use the definition for Defies in place of Resist, and claim that it is the definition of Resist, and you expect me to focus on any other points you may try to make after that?

My perception would be that you are willing to misrepresent words in order to prove your point, not a very respectable thing to do, and quite frankly diminishes your credibility, so I'm sorry that I stopped taking you seriously. My deepest apologies.

Go to Websters Dictionary. Type in Resist. That is the top definition.

Go to Dictionary.com. Type in Resist. Scroll down to Princeton University. See the same definition. That one is listed as resist as well as a synonym of defy. I thought since things were getting so seriously skewed that people might take a moment and read it and go what? Which you did. You /facepalmed and pointed out it was for Defies. I agreed and now you don't take me seriously and state that my credibility is diminished because in your perception I was willfully misrepresenting words. I thought this forum was not only for banter but for fun and pointing out various ways of interpreting these rules...

I'm sorry to have made you take me not seriously, cause that wasn't the point. Spuring on thinking about it in other ways was, and tossing humor in was. It's too bad that its so easy to forget that when you type others don't see your face or hear the inflections that you would make if you actually were talking to them.

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Arbentur said:

See, while you said it was one throw away word to perhaps at a stretch give someone a +10 to their toughness to 'resist' the damage thereby lowering the damage by one point, it would at least give a more even handed approach to the talent...and I'd think that if you were able to recognize certain 'markers' that go hand in hand with a psyker using their powers, why would your knowledge about how to mitigate an intrusion into your mind be limited to not figuring out how Psychic 'physical' attacks work and how to minimize those specific things under that same aegis?

The manipulating the warp jargon was a way to make people think about how the warp and thereby Psychic powers affect people and how if it's supposed to just be a blanket resist versus everything covered in the parentheses how it could be handled. Instead my humor ended up detracting from how I tried to explain my point.

Well, you have me there. You are right, there dose need to be an over all even handed approach to all resistance talents under the umbrella (else why put them all under the same umbrella). Likewise, offering up a +10 to someones toughness to resist damage from a source one has a resistance to sounds and feels like it is keeping with the spirit of the talent as well as not setting any dangerous broken precedents that i can think of off the top of my head.

If a player came up to me and said that he should be able to resist las gun fire because he has resistance (heat), I'll let him soak an extra point of damage from it (effectively giving him a +10 to his toughness for the purpose of resisting the las gun's heat). 1 point is not very much at all, especially when one considers the fact that most all weapons fluctuate by 9 points in the damage that they inflict.

What I would still have a problem with, however, is the whole avoidance issue. Even though the book dose say in one line that the talent allows one to resist or avoid it, that simply opens up far too many doors to WTF moments as illustrated in many posts above. Likewise, it simply flies in the face of what seems to be the spirit and feel of the talents. Avoidance is not Resistance. After all, if Gandhi had decided to get the hell out of India and live out the rest of his days in some tropical paradise he would have avoided the British rule of India but he sure as heck wouldn't be considered to have resisted it. The essence of resistance is one force opposing another force (opposition is the key!), not avoiding it.

Since avoidance not only opens up a lot of doors in the resistance talents that should remain firmly closed but also is somewhat counter to the essence of resistance, I am of the opinion that the last line describing the Resistance Talents is simply a case of some poorly chosen words that seemed harmless at the time. That's actually a lot easer for me to swallow then the argument that the Resistance Talents are actually supposed to also allow one to avoid what ever is in the parenthesis. After all, look at a lot of the other mistakes in the book that made it past the editor... wait, was the book even edited? There's no credit given for an editor (in the BI edition at least) and that would explain soooooooooo much.

Posted at

Graver said:

Arbentur said:

See, while you said it was one throw away word to perhaps at a stretch give someone a +10 to their toughness to 'resist' the damage thereby lowering the damage by one point, it would at least give a more even handed approach to the talent...and I'd think that if you were able to recognize certain 'markers' that go hand in hand with a psyker using their powers, why would your knowledge about how to mitigate an intrusion into your mind be limited to not figuring out how Psychic 'physical' attacks work and how to minimize those specific things under that same aegis?

The manipulating the warp jargon was a way to make people think about how the warp and thereby Psychic powers affect people and how if it's supposed to just be a blanket resist versus everything covered in the parentheses how it could be handled. Instead my humor ended up detracting from how I tried to explain my point.

Well, you have me there. You are right, there dose need to be an over all even handed approach to all resistance talents under the umbrella (else why put them all under the same umbrella). Likewise, offering up a +10 to someones toughness to resist damage from a source one has a resistance to sounds and feels like it is keeping with the spirit of the talent as well as not setting any dangerous broken precedents that i can think of off the top of my head.

If a player came up to me and said that he should be able to resist las gun fire because he has resistance (heat), I'll let him soak an extra point of damage from it (effectively giving him a +10 to his toughness for the purpose of resisting the las gun's heat). 1 point is not very much at all, especially when one considers the fact that most all weapons fluctuate by 9 points in the damage that they inflict.

What I would still have a problem with, however, is the whole avoidance issue. Even though the book dose say in one line that the talent allows one to resist or avoid it, that simply opens up far too many doors to WTF moments as illustrated in many posts above. Likewise, it simply flies in the face of what seems to be the spirit and feel of the talents. Avoidance is not Resistance. After all, if Gandhi had decided to get the hell out of India and live out the rest of his days in some tropical paradise he would have avoided the British rule of India but he sure as heck wouldn't be considered to have resisted it. The essence of resistance is one force opposing another force (opposition is the key!), not avoiding it.

Since avoidance not only opens up a lot of doors in the resistance talents that should remain firmly closed but also is somewhat counter to the essence of resistance, I am of the opinion that the last line describing the Resistance Talents is simply a case of some poorly chosen words that seemed harmless at the time. That's actually a lot easer for me to swallow then the argument that the Resistance Talents are actually supposed to also allow one to avoid what ever is in the parenthesis. After all, look at a lot of the other mistakes in the book that made it past the editor... wait, was the book even edited? There's no credit given for an editor (in the BI edition at least) and that would explain soooooooooo much.

Case in point. Heightened Senses (sight) gives +10 to all tests based off of sight. This at the time of original publication (BL) included Ballistic/Weapon skill tests. Which thankfully the errata cleared up because I was getting crap left and right from players for not allowing that... serio.gif

Posted at

Arbentur said:

So tell me, in your own perception, how someone Resists Psychic Powers. What is it about them that makes them resistant?

I would answer your question Arbentur, but I think Zarkhovian and Graver have already done that, and I fully agree with their arguments, no need to repeat the same point with different words. With the time difference I was unfortunately already in bed when you answered my post.