The wording of this talent caused a minor debate the other day, if you don't have your book in front of you or just can't be bothered to pick it up and flip through it, here are the words:

"Whether through past exposure, grueling physical training or luck of genetics, you are highly resistant to a particular thing. When you pick this Talent select a group to be resistant to. You gain a +10 bonust when making a test to resist or avoid the object of your resistance."

The debate focused mainly on Resistance (Psychic Powers), it came up when we encountered a sorcerer, and it asked: against what effects do you really gain +10 to your tests. Some are more obvious than others. The talent clearly helps you against powers like Déjà Vu, Spasm, Touch of Madness, Constrict, Psychic Crush, Psychic Shriek, Compel, or Dominate, to name some. But what about the effects of Fearful Aura or Blinding Flash, and do you gain a further +10 to avoid Wall of Fire if place on top of you? Should it go so far as to give you a +10 to dodge a Fire Bolt/Storm, Force Bolt/Barrage, dodging a Psychic Blade? And on that note, you are allowed to dodge Fire Storm and Holocaust like any other blast effects, right?

It was more or less the fact that the talent says "resist or avoid" that became the issue. Personally, I'm of the oppinion that only the first group of powers I mentioned above should be subject to the +10 you receive from the resistance talent, but I didn't manage to enirely convince everyone else, so thought I'd put up the question here to see what others think (and to get more ammunition to bring to the discussion next session).

My argument was that with a power like Fire Bolt, the manifestation and throwing of the it is of a psychic nature but the fire is in itself natural and should be just as easy or hard to dodge like a rock, or anything else you might have thrown at you. And if you allow a +10 bonus to dodge a Fire Bolt just because you have Resistance (Psychic Powers) then why not get the same +10 bonus if you have Resistance (Heat)? It doesn't hold up...

All thought and arguments on the matter is appreciated!

The wording of this talent caused a minor debate the other day, if you don't have your book in front of you or just can't be bothered to pick it up and flip through it, here are the words:

"Whether through past exposure, grueling physical training or luck of genetics, you are highly resistant to a particular thing. When you pick this Talent select a group to be resistant to. You gain a +10 bonust when making a test to resist or avoid the object of your resistance."

The debate focused mainly on Resistance (Psychic Powers), it came up when we encountered a sorcerer, and it asked: against what effects do you really gain +10 to your tests. Some are more obvious than others. The talent clearly helps you against powers like Déjà Vu, Spasm, Touch of Madness, Constrict, Psychic Crush, Psychic Shriek, Compel, or Dominate, to name some. But what about the effects of Fearful Aura or Blinding Flash, and do you gain a further +10 to avoid Wall of Fire if place on top of you? Should it go so far as to give you a +10 to dodge a Fire Bolt/Storm, Force Bolt/Barrage, dodging a Psychic Blade? And on that note, you are allowed to dodge Fire Storm and Holocaust like any other blast effects, right?

It was more or less the fact that the talent says "resist or avoid" that became the issue. Personally, I'm of the oppinion that only the first group of powers I mentioned above should be subject to the +10 you receive from the resistance talent, but I didn't manage to enirely convince everyone else, so thought I'd put up the question here to see what others think (and to get more ammunition to bring to the discussion next session).

My argument was that with a power like Fire Bolt, the manifestation and throwing of the it is of a psychic nature but the fire is in itself natural and should be just as easy or hard to dodge like a rock, or anything else you might have thrown at you. And if you allow a +10 bonus to dodge a Fire Bolt just because you have Resistance (Psychic Powers) then why not get the same +10 bonus if you have Resistance (Heat)? It doesn't hold up...

All thought and arguments on the matter is appreciated!

Firstly, the psychic fire is almost certainly not normal fire - unless of course you'd prefer that it can't overcome the Daemonic trait.

Secondly, the wording reads "resist or avoid". Dodging is a method of avoiding. In the same way, I'd give someone the +10 when he's trying to use Acrobatics to tumble through a burning room when he has Resistance (Heat) - and yes, Resistance (Heat) should protect against Pyromancy. Also note that the +10 also ups your agility bonus for the dodge when comparing it to the blast radius (can't dodge if you don't have at least as much agility bonus as the distance you have to dodge).

More interesting would be the question whether it also improves your toughness bonus to reduce the damage. The text says "when making a test", but the section on characteristic bonuses mentions that whenever a characteristic is subject to a penalty or an improvement, so is the bonus based on the characteristic. This would lead me to believe that for purposes of psychic powers, every characteristic bonus is considered to be raised by one.

Cifer said:

Just because a psyker can form fire into a bolt or mold it into different shapes doesn't make the fire itself inherently unnatural, psychic energies force the fire into shapes (an colours in the case of Fire Bolt) and makes it move, but the fire still behaves like fire normally does: it lights materials on fire, causes burns on skin. A fire started from a psychic power can still be put out in the normal fashions. I would also say that a psyker cannot throw a Fire Bolt in the void becuase fire needs oxygen (or a different oxidizer) to burn, at least if it's a chemical reaction, if on the other hand is was a nuclear reaction then that would make it possible. Stars burn because of nuclear reactions, but the reaction is much more potent than a chemical one, and if pyromancy powers where nuclear then the damage would be far greater. Holocaust hints specifically that it is no ordinaty fire, so that I could accept would work even in the void.

So a character with Resistance (Heat) and Resistance (Psychic Powers) would get a +20 to dodge a Fire Bolt? Sorry, but I just don't buy that. By that logic, when a psyker who uses Fling to throw an item at you, you'll get +10 to dodge if you have Resistance (Psychic Power). I would argue that Resistance only counts when you are directly targeted by a psychic power not when you are targeted as a product of a psychic power. When targeted by a power like Compel you are directly targeted, but when someone uses a power to, by psychic means, pick up an object and throw it at someone, then you are the targeted as a product of the psychic power in question.

Actually, the section on characteristics bonuses only mentions penalties. The Wall of Flame power lets you make an easy (+20) agility test to avoid it if it's place directly on top of you, this does not mean that you can move 2 meters longer that your usual half action move rate, that would just be silly.

Just because a psyker can form fire into a bolt or mold it into different shapes doesn't make the fire itself inherently unnatural, psychic energies force the fire into shapes (an colours in the case of Fire Bolt) and makes it move, but the fire still behaves like fire normally does: it lights materials on fire, causes burns on skin. A fire started from a psychic power can still be put out in the normal fashions. I would also say that a psyker cannot throw a Fire Bolt in the void becuase fire needs oxygen (or a different oxidizer) to burn, at least if it's a chemical reaction, if on the other hand is was a nuclear reaction then that would make it possible. Stars burn because of nuclear reactions, but the reaction is much more potent than a chemical one, and if pyromancy powers where nuclear then the damage would be far greater. Holocaust hints specifically that it is no ordinaty fire, so that I could accept would work even in the void.

So... our psyker can provide a fire that has no source of fuel, but still needs oxygen? Why is that? And if the flames are perfectly natural, how is it that they are not affected by Daemonic?

So a character with Resistance (Heat) and Resistance (Psychic Powers) would get a +20 to dodge a Fire Bolt? Sorry, but I just don't buy that. By that logic, when a psyker who uses Fling to throw an item at you, you'll get +10 to dodge if you have Resistance (Psychic Power). I would argue that Resistance only counts when you are directly targeted by a psychic power not when you are targeted as a product of a psychic power. When targeted by a power like Compel you are directly targeted, but when someone uses a power to, by psychic means, pick up an object and throw it at someone, then you are the targeted as a product of the psychic power in question.

There's a simple test to see whether something should be influenced by Resistance (Psychic Power), IMO. One just has to ask oneself: Would the power affect a Null? It's pretty clear that you can Fling a chair onto a Null (in fact, I believe it was one of the given examples of psychic attacks that work upon them), but I haven't yet read of Nulls that were psychically incinerated.

Cifer said:

The fuel would obviously be the same substance that created the flame in the first place: warp energy, I thought that would be self-evident, but perhaps it wasn't. Fire Storm contains the description "as the air itself ignites", which is what's required for real conflagration: air, i.e. oxygen. The Daemonic trait argument is a good one though, and I suppose I could defend that part of my oppinion with that it could be beacuse of the way the flame was created and what fuels it. Fire takes on some aspects of what it is consuming, the colour of the flame can depend on what is burning, for example, but the fire is still fire. But I think we're getting hung up on the wrong details here, and drifting off the main issue.

The fact remains that I don't beleive that Resistance (of any kind) would help your ability to react fast, tests against willpower and toughness I can fully accept, but not agility, the logic doesn't hold up. How could a person with Resistance (Psychic Powers) be better at dodging a flaming shpere created by a psyker but not as good at dodging a tennisball soaked in gasoline, lit on fire, and thrown by the same psyker? Odds are the psyker's WP is higher than his BS so he should be more accurate with the Fire Bolt. Or that a person with Resistance (Psychic Powers) and Resistance (Heat) would be better at dodging a Fire Bolt than a Force Bolt cast by the same psyker. It's like saying a person with Resistance (Cold) is better at dodging a snowball than a rock, how can you justify that?

Whether through past exposure, grueling physical training or luck of genetics, you are highly resistant to a particular thing.

I dont see why it wouldnt help you avoid an attack. But none the less, how do you know how much of the test is getting out of the way, and how much is that your resistance can help you ignore the hit. Maybe, with +10, 10% of the time you can negate the hit. Or maybe when they target you, it will move/conjure that much slower. Or maybe, you have so much experience dealing with it, you know how the attack will move faster then someone else.

tests against willpower and toughness I can fully accept, but not agility

I dont see how one talent can affect your mind, and physical body's resilience, but to you its inconcievable for it to also affect your reaction time.

And, everything else aside, YOU ARE CREATING FIRE/FLINGING THINGS WITH YOUR MIND. You are really arguing what is/isnt realistically possible?

Varius said:

A hit is a hit, a miss is a miss, if you want to start arguing that a "miss" was actually a hit, but your resistance to something caused the hit to have no effect, then that's your problem, don't try to convince me that people who create these games would be of the same mind as you. A "miss" that does no damage is a hit that was absorbed by, in this RPG, your armour or your toughness.

Caps? Like I wouldn't see if it otherwise? You got the option of using a bold or italic for a reason you know. And, yes! I am agruing what is realistically possible, because, beleive it or not, the rules governing psychic powers were actually made with realism in mind, not the fact that you actually can do stuff like this, but how it would manifest and effect your surroundings.

Again, if you didn't read my last point, if the Resistance talent adds to your chance to dodge, then a person with Resistance (Cold) would be better at dodging a snowball that a rock . That is why I don't think this talent can speed up your reaction time.

Would you also allow a person with Resistance (Heat) who is set on fire only a -10, instead of the standard -20, Agility Test to put that fire out by themself? What if they also had Resistance (Psychic Power) and was set on fire because of a psychic power, would their Agility Test suffer no penalty at all? Just because a person might be more resistant to heat doesn't mean they know how better to put out a fire.

Is the cold doing damage to you with the snowball? No, it would be the impact. A snowball doesnt do E damage, does it?

If it was a magic freezing snowball, then yes, it would give you a bonus to dodge it. Because you are resistant, a graze that might freeze someone else might not freeze you at all. Fire is hot. You can be burned by fire you didnt touch. That is why the damage is random, it takes into account not every hit is a direct hit.

Im still blown away by the fact you can accept someone shaking something off easier with their mind or body, but thier reaction time cant possibly be increased.

I think you are just getting hung up on the word "Resist".

Oh so now you're just defining "Heat" or "Cold" as something that does E damage? What about temperatures? Shouldn't you get a bonus to your toughness test to resist extremely hot or cold climates? And what about a molotov cocktail vs a glass bottle. The molotov cocktail does E damage, the bottle would be Impact. I understand there's a difference, and I'm pretty sure you do too, but that's just an extention of your reasoning.

You seem to be reading random selected passages of my posts. A miss is a miss, a hit is a hit, a grazing hit is a hit that did very little damage and was easily negated by your armour or toughness.

Because your reaction time is, in your reasoning, dependant of the source of the danger. That's why I find it hard to beleive. A person can not be better at dodging an item thrown at them just because it happens to be on fire.

And I think you're confusing the word "avoid" with the word "dodge".

xenobiotica said:

Dodge

"–verb (used without object)
3. to move aside or change position suddenly, as to avoid a blow or get behind something."

:S

I would say that in an extreem temperature, someone with a resist cold/hot would get a bonus.

Through past experience or training means that you have encountered it before and know what to do. Its the difference between knowing stop drop and roll and not. A fireman would probably have the talent "resist heat", even if he has never been caught on fire, so would someone who has been lit on fire before, like a stunt man, or someone who has been in a fire accident, because they know what it feels like, and what they should do to stop it.

In the case of psychic abilities, if I have been hit by firebolt before, I would know how to avoid it better the next time realistically. Hell, that makes more sense then through training resisting compulsion, or fending off muscle spasms or stopping a blood boil.

And some people can just be born naturally resistant to things. Maybe they have a strong warp presence, that messes up the trajectory of a fired psychic power, making it easier to dodge. There are untouchables, so it shows that some people are effected by warp abilities differently.

And, remember, they are doing it for rules simplicity. They would have to list every power and how they wanted it to be effected if they went with your line of thinking. For the sake of simplicity, if you are making a save vs a power itself, then you get a bonus.

Varius said:

You do realize you just looked up the meaning of the wrong word don't you? The word used in the book is "avoid", one meaning of which can be dodge, but is not entirely synonymous with dodge.

Of course they would get a bonus to resist extreme temperatures. You just used the definition of the talent to mean "to resist something that does E damage", didn't you get that that was my point?

Your arguments are fallacies, just because a fireman knows how to stop drop and roll properly doesn't mean he's better at dodging a flamethrower. Just because you've dodged a Fire Bolt once doesn't mean you can, under the same circumstances, dodge the next one better, nor should you be able to get a talent that allows you do dodge every single Fire Bolt thereafter better. People can be trained to resist interrogation and that is just the same susceptibility that a power like compel exploits, and I've seen a man train himself to resist the effects of a taser long enough to rip the darts out before becomming completely incapacitated.

It feels like we're focusing on very specific circumstances instead of looking at it as a whole.

They do list every power and how they want it to be effected, that's what the chapter Psychic Powers is all about. My problem is just a lack of definition when it comes to the talent Resistance, and now yours and Cifers view on how wide the spectrum of situations those talents give bonuses. Simplicity is all well and good, but when it turns into stupidity, it's gone too far.

xenobiotica said:

But you still havent explained why you think reaction time would be taken into account with this talent. You are just saying it shouldnt

Edit - With regards to the fact that if you had proper training with a situation, you could react to it better

Edit 2- You are also assuming dodging a rock and fireball would be even remotely the same, when they would probably travel at different speeds, and have different trajectories, and a fireball might have a specific sight of where it is going, or hell, even a smell that would let you know it is coming, like maybe an ozone smell for lighting before a psyker casts a lighting bolt.

Varius said:

I think I've actually made my point quite clear. I've said:

"Because your reaction time is, in your reasoning, dependant of the source of the danger."

And that was clarified in the same parargraph by the addition of:

"A person can not be better at dodging an item thrown at them just because it happens to be on fire"

And in a response to Cifer I said:

"Or that a person with Resistance (Psychic Powers) and Resistance (Heat) would be better at dodging a Fire Bolt than a Force Bolt cast by the same psyker."

I think that sums up the "why".

There is no logical reason why you should be able to dodge a flaming object easier that a non-flaming object because of the Resistance talent, that is basically at the heart of my reasoning. Your argument about the difference in speed or trajectories makes no real difference. The difficulty of dodging anything thrown or shot at you is determined by the skill of the thrower/shooter, a psyker with higher willpower is more accurate with his Fire Bolts, to say that having the Resistance (Heat) would make it easier to dodge a Fire Bolt than a Force Bolt from the same psyker sounds really wrong to me.

And in no way would the creation of ozone precede a lightning bolt, it is a by-product of electrical discharges or by action of high energy electromagnetic radiation.

See, thats where your reasoning is off. You assume shooting someone is point and click with a fireball. If that were true it would use your ballistic skill. Why, realistically, would throwing a grenade use the same skill set as shooting a gun? They are completely different. And if those two are the same, why does a psyker have to use willpower to hit with a firebolt, rather than the skill for shooting/throwing things?

If a psyker has to use his willpower, then he must be using his power to target, which may be harder with a person with a resistance. But for the ease of the rules, instead of singling out the one or two abilities in which a psyker must hit and giving them a negative, they give a generic saving throw bonus. Powers just dont work as well against that character.

Its right in the rules, it helps you avoid powers. Dodging is a form of avoiding. If you dont like it, you can change it in your game, but the way it is written, it is pretty clear.

- And my thing about ozone, I meant that manifesting powers has some signal. Maybe the character has a "6th sense" about powers, a connection to the warp so they can subconciously see them coming, even without being a psyker.

First off when I GM I like keeping things simple. Check out Table 4-1 Talents. They give a nice little summary for what the Talent does. It specifically says +10 bonus to Resistance tests. That being said I'd rule that if the power can be resisted (ie: Blood Boil, Compel, Inflict Pain, Mind Scan, etc.) then they get the bonus. But if it causes regular dmg (Firebolt, Biolightning, Psychic Blade, etc.) that can be avoided by dodging, then no way should someone who has a resistance to it get the bonus to dodge it.

I put forth a question to test the theory of any Resistance talent granting a dodge bonus. This is to illustrate the precedent set by allowing Resistance (Psychic Powers) to grant a bonus to dodge tests to avoid the nature of the resistance.

Heretic Harry swings a poison slathered blade at Chuck who has Resistance (Poison), does Chuck get a bonus to dodge/parry? After all he is "avoiding" the object of his Resistance.

Varius said:

What in my previous post led you to beleive that I think shooting someone with a fireball is "point and click"? I simply said that the difficulty of dodging anything is determined by how skilled the attacker is. You don't need to single out specific powers that can or can't be subject to Resistance bonuses, you only need common sense, something that, if it's not clear now, should be by the end of the post.

If you beleive that's how Resistance (Psychic Power) works then if should also give a +10 bonus to dodge a chair being thrown at you with the power Fling, something your buddy Cifer would disagree on, since that would be a power you could use against a Null.

Your arguments seem to hinge on "maybes" a bit too much.

And Zarkhovian makes a good point, if you had Resistance (Poison) would you get +10 to dodge or parry a poisoned blade, even though you can't see that it's poisoned? And don't give me any of that grazing hit nonsense, and yes it is nonsense...

Oh, and thank you Zarkhovian for joining the discussion, I was begining to think I was alone in my oppinion.

Zarkhovian makes a good question, but it is couched in perception. Clearly you don't get the bonus to dodge, but you would get it to avoid the effects of the poison. Your comment on someone chucking a rock versus a flaming rock is the same issue. No bonus to dodge the flaming rock but a bonus to catch on fire.

Now flip that over to the Psychic issue where it's more in the grey. You say Resistance Psychic won't let them 'dodge' better via reaction. I say who said having a psychic resistance helps their reaction? I say that every person has a tiny bit of psychic residue that mirrors into the Warp, and the resistant ones however tiny a link it may be, helps them 'bend' the firebolt away when they dodge making them a harder target to hit. Now you asked if someone has both Resistance Psychic and Heat would they get double the bonus? I'd say the Psychic would help them dodge, the Heat would help them from catching fire once they got hit. Bridge it over to your comment about Fearful Aura and Blinding Flash...they've got a Psychic source so if I was running a game they would get that bonus.

All the points and counterpoints really come down to one simple point: How powerful is Resistance in your game? You favor a less powerful version than some people, I see your point, but you haven't convinced me that what I just said above isn't just as correct an interpretation.

Arbentur said:

That was actually my point...

I also will submit 2 definitions to this thread seeing as how I can't think of a better way to explain my stance.

Resist: verb. Withstand the action or effect of.

Withstand: verb. Remain undamaged or unaffected by.

You resist (withstand the action or effects of) poison, heat, cold, and fear, there seems to be no argument here. How then with psychic powers do we suddenly gain the ability to better dodge these effects/actions by being better able to be unaffected by them?

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

How is one Resistant to Psychic powers in the first place? One could argue that a better mechanic for Resistance Psychic would be to take the first part of the Untouchable background. Just increase the threshhold needed to use a psychic power on the person rather than monkey around with a +10 bonus to "resist or avoid" the effects of the power. The point is while conceptually we may understand how Psychic powers work and how simple numbers run, we can not relate to actually having somehow some sort of resistance to it.

But to more accurately answer your question: If you feel uncomfortable thinking that you get a +10 to your dodge due to your resistance, make a 'dodge' using willpower (since psychic powers are willpower) at a +10 since "Whether through past exposure, grueling physical training, or luck of genetics you are highly resistant to a particular thing." They left the reason amorphous from my POV to allow for not only the many different things listed under resistance but also to represent a whole host of things that are not explainable using real world terminology.

Arbentur said:

Taking the first portion of the Untouchable Background... Makes you partially untouchable. That's way too powerful for a simple resistance. Which is why I like the idea of Resistance (Psychic Powers) only affecting "resistable" powers.

It's not that I'm uncomfortable with the +10 to dodge due to resistance. I think it's pointless. Dodge already has the opportunity to get bonuses within the advance schemes of the Career ranks. According to the previous definitions Resisting(withstanding) a Psychic Power is not the same as avoiding(Dodging) it. And since the Talent in question is called Resistance (Psychic Powers) not Avoidance (Psychic Powers) a dodge test being granted a bonus because you happen to be tougher to hurt with the effect doesn't make sense.

And since the Talent in question is called Resistance (Psychic Powers) not Avoidance (Psychic Powers)

Ok...but in the description it states that it helps avoid. It says resist or avoid. It could be called Resistance and Avoidance(Psychic Powers) but thats a long name for something.

Varius said:

By reading it like that then I refer back to the previous question.

If resistance allows a character to gain a bonus to dodge tests when resisting/avoiding the object of your resistance then will a character being attacked with a poisoned blade get a bonus to dodge the knife? If not then why does it only apply to Psychic Powers? If it does, then I'd love to hear a decent explanation.

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

You arent dodging the poison, you are dodging the knife. If someone was spraying poison at you, you would get a bonus, whether it is because you know enough about poison to shut your eyes and not let any get on your skin, or various other reasons.

With a firebolt, you are actually dodging the power itself, not the effect of the power, like you would if you were flinging things at a person like rocks. And psychic fire works differently then normal fire, because it bypasses demonic traits, so it makes sense that a person who is resistant to it would more often then not take less damage from it. For simplicity of the rules, it just adds a +10 to the dodge test. In game description terms it could be for any number of reasons. If I am resistant to fire, I might not have to be as quick as everyone else to get out of the way and still avoid the negative effects of it.

The text is fairly clear about it, so I dont know why we are still having this discussion. If you want to change it, go ahead, start a thread in the house rules section, but the rules state that it helps you avoid.

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

I'm not talking about Untouchable resistance ala whammy. What I'm talking about if the ones that specifically are easy to adjudicate, like the equivilant toughness test to resist poisons, it gets the standard +10. When it's another specifically psychic power only increase the threshhold by 5. It represents the persons resistance to being affected. And in my mind it makes no sense that you've got a natural resistance to psychic powers...'except when this happens, or this, or this, or that, or that, or this....wait you're only really resistant to some powers.'

Point being I think there is a point to having it, and you don't. Perhaps it's the difference between the spirit of it and the letter of it. In either case it seems neither of us has convinced the other of their case And that's all good with me.

I have always seen resistance(psychic powers) as a reinforcement of the souls control of the body. that helps avoid powers that attacks or controls any thing the soul is commanding.

But not things outside the body, as a psychic bolts being sent at you.