Let me get this straight. I can wield a sword that has shock stuff running through it, a chainsaw sword and a normal sword with a power field, but NOT a sword sword if all I have is UNIVERSAL Melee Weapon Training?

Yeah, RAW is kind of stupid in that. We usually houserule that you can.

Commonsense is the realised sense of proportion. -Gandhi

As SirFrog mentioned, you must houserule it. Nothing in the Errata as far as I can tell.

I've actually had a player not question it and actually pay the 500 exp to get the Melee (Primitive). It was only a few sessions later when I was looking at his sheet that I noticed and told him that I'd never considered it necessary.

From pretty much everyone I've talked to it's basically an unspoken houserule that Universal includes Melee.

It was obviously intentional, so I keep it in. People want primitive weapon proficiency that bad, they can pay those 100xp. Additionally, I don't feel that every Death Worlder ever should get Talented for free.

The way weapon talents work and interact with weapons is absolutely useless throughout the entire WH40kRP line, I suggest doing this;

Divide weapons into TYPE and CLASS, with Weapon Proficiency (Class) and Weapon Training (Type) .

Using a weapon for which you have neither Class nor Type would incur a -40 penalty, while having training in either Class or Type would incur a -20. Having training in both would mean no inherent penalty at all.

Some weapons would have no Type, while some may have no Class; this includes, for example, many Exotic Weapons that operate so differently that the only way you can realistically use them is with the Exotic Weapons Operation talent.

Classes would be Melee, Thrown, Basic, Pistol and Heavy.

Types would be Bolt, Chain, Spray, Las, Launcher, Melta, Power, Shock, and Solid Projectile.

Some (Exotic) weapons would have Unique Type, corresponding to the general kind of exotic weapon it is. For example, weapons with the Eldar Type would all be usable by someone with the Exotic Weapons Operation (Eldar) talent. All Gauss Types with the Exotic Weapons Operation (Gauss) . This is, of course, provided that they also can use that Class. In many cases, a Pistol is still a Pistol and a Heavy weapon is still Heavy.

What this system specifically allows is diversification of concepts, but what it does primarily for me is that it removes the sillyness of someone being able to use a Power Sword, but not a Feudal Sword. Or a Shock-Whip, but not a Grox-Whip.

This is because while you would need Weapon Proficiency (Melee) AND Weapon Training (Power) to use a Power Sword properly, a regular Feudal Sworld would only be Class: Melee, but with Type: None.

Agreed. It makes much more sense to have skills divided between class of weapon (i.e. size) and type (i.e. which branch of sci-fi physics it works on). A competent pistoleer should be notably better if handed a plasma pistol, even if neither he nor his opponent have ever seen a plasma weapon before.

My only comment to the above is that (especially for rogue trader), mounted-class weapons shouldn't be forgotten about. More than a lot of other settings, being asked to man a gun-cutter's turret is quite a likely occurance.

Agreed. It makes much more sense to have skills divided between class of weapon (i.e. size) and type (i.e. which branch of sci-fi physics it works on). A competent pistoleer should be notably better if handed a plasma pistol, even if neither he nor his opponent have ever seen a plasma weapon before.

My only comment to the above is that (especially for rogue trader), mounted-class weapons shouldn't be forgotten about. More than a lot of other settings, being asked to man a gun-cutter's turret is quite a likely occurance.

I would say that that belongs either in the realm of Skillchecks, or under Heavy Weapons; most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary - it's just that people staring at the tables never notice (or care). And they're all sorted under heavy weapons (Lascannons, Heavy Bolters and the like).

THanks for your input and ideas, I think the GM will let me houserule it. Some folks I told didn't even believe me when I pointed it out!

most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary

That's crazy talk. With Blackbone Bracing and some Synthmuscle and/or power armour, even the weediest of gits can enjoy the benefits of running around with an assault cannon.*

* I take no responsibility for characters vuilt with rolled stats.

most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary

That's crazy talk. With Blackbone Bracing and some Synthmuscle and/or power armour, even the weediest of gits can enjoy the benefits of running around with an assault cannon.*

* I take no responsibility for characters vuilt with rolled stats.

By pure RAW, this is true, but as soon as you take weapon descriptions and narrative into account... not so much. Which was my only point.

most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary

That's crazy talk. With Blackbone Bracing and some Synthmuscle and/or power armour, even the weediest of gits can enjoy the benefits of running around with an assault cannon.*

* I take no responsibility for characters vuilt with rolled stats.

By pure RAW, this is true, but as soon as you take weapon descriptions and narrative into account... not so much. Which was my only point.

So if we look at this narrativly then, as you seem so fond of, what exactly is stopping ol Slab Bulkhead, Arch Militant, from carrying his Assault Cannon if he has both the know-how to use it and the muscle to carry it and its load of ammo?

Recoil.

There isn't much, due to the immense weight of the weapon.

If Arnold can do it, so can ol Slab Bulkhead

Not to mention that this is exactly what the Bracing action is there for. Which, mind you, can be fixed quite easily with the talent Bulging Biceps or, as Magellan pointed out earlier, Blackbone Bracing.

most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary

That's crazy talk. With Blackbone Bracing and some Synthmuscle and/or power armour, even the weediest of gits can enjoy the benefits of running around with an assault cannon.*

* I take no responsibility for characters vuilt with rolled stats.

By pure RAW, this is true, but as soon as you take weapon descriptions and narrative into account... not so much. Which was my only point.

Agreed. It makes much more sense to have skills divided between class of weapon (i.e. size) and type (i.e. which branch of sci-fi physics it works on). A competent pistoleer should be notably better if handed a plasma pistol, even if neither he nor his opponent have ever seen a plasma weapon before.

My only comment to the above is that (especially for rogue trader), mounted-class weapons shouldn't be forgotten about. More than a lot of other settings, being asked to man a gun-cutter's turret is quite a likely occurance.

I would say that that belongs either in the realm of Skillchecks, or under Heavy Weapons; most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary - it's just that people staring at the tables never notice (or care). And they're all sorted under heavy weapons (Lascannons, Heavy Bolters and the like).

most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary

That's crazy talk. With Blackbone Bracing and some Synthmuscle and/or power armour, even the weediest of gits can enjoy the benefits of running around with an assault cannon.*

* I take no responsibility for characters vuilt with rolled stats.

By pure RAW, this is true, but as soon as you take weapon descriptions and narrative into account... not so much. Which was my only point.

So then, looking in Rogue Trader Core!

"Man Portable Lascannon

Built for war, lascannons use huge power packs that provide

enough energy to punch holes in the thickest armour even at

extreme ranges. Lascannons also require separate power packs,

which is why they are often crewed by two or more people."

"Heavy Bolter (Solar-pattern )

Heavy bolters are a common heavy weapon in the armed forces

of the Imperium. Used for anti-infantry and support rolls, they

can lay down impressive swathes of fire, able to slaughter enemy

troopers and destroy light vehicles with their explosive armourpiercing

rounds. Each uses much larger versions of the standard

bolt shell with more propellant and greater range. Like all bolter

weapons they require careful and regular maintenance, along

with ancient litanies to appease the weapon’s spirit. Jamming is

often a problem due to their high rate of fire, and when used

in two-man teams the loader can expect to be clearing shells as

well as loading new ammunition packs or feed belts."

We see here to references to what you speak of.

"...they (Lascannons) are often crewed by two or more people."

"...and when used (meaning Heavy Bolters) in two-man teams..."

If it had meant always, it would have said always. Since it says often, it means that Lascannons sometimes aren't used in two-man teams. So there's nothing saying they're not man-portable. In fact, that's right in its name. So the Lascannon can be used by a lone, moving person so long as he has the Strength to carry it. Furthemore, the Heavy Bolter only states that the Heavy Bolter can be used in two-man teams, not that it must be. Ergo, it can be used by a lone man if he meets the Strength requirements.

To summarize? It is extremely impolite, nay, downright rude, to make things up on the spot, Fgdsfg. I think you should stop doing that.

most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary

That's crazy talk. With Blackbone Bracing and some Synthmuscle and/or power armour, even the weediest of gits can enjoy the benefits of running around with an assault cannon.*

* I take no responsibility for characters vuilt with rolled stats.

By pure RAW, this is true, but as soon as you take weapon descriptions and narrative into account... not so much. Which was my only point.

Agreed. It makes much more sense to have skills divided between class of weapon (i.e. size) and type (i.e. which branch of sci-fi physics it works on). A competent pistoleer should be notably better if handed a plasma pistol, even if neither he nor his opponent have ever seen a plasma weapon before.

My only comment to the above is that (especially for rogue trader), mounted-class weapons shouldn't be forgotten about. More than a lot of other settings, being asked to man a gun-cutter's turret is quite a likely occurance.

I would say that that belongs either in the realm of Skillchecks, or under Heavy Weapons; most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary - it's just that people staring at the tables never notice (or care). And they're all sorted under heavy weapons (Lascannons, Heavy Bolters and the like).

most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary

That's crazy talk. With Blackbone Bracing and some Synthmuscle and/or power armour, even the weediest of gits can enjoy the benefits of running around with an assault cannon.*

* I take no responsibility for characters vuilt with rolled stats.

By pure RAW, this is true, but as soon as you take weapon descriptions and narrative into account... not so much. Which was my only point.

So then, looking in Rogue Trader Core!

"Man Portable Lascannon

Built for war, lascannons use huge power packs that provide

enough energy to punch holes in the thickest armour even at

extreme ranges. Lascannons also require separate power packs,

which is why they are often crewed by two or more people."

"Heavy Bolter (Solar-pattern )

Heavy bolters are a common heavy weapon in the armed forces

of the Imperium. Used for anti-infantry and support rolls, they

can lay down impressive swathes of fire, able to slaughter enemy

troopers and destroy light vehicles with their explosive armourpiercing

rounds. Each uses much larger versions of the standard

bolt shell with more propellant and greater range. Like all bolter

weapons they require careful and regular maintenance, along

with ancient litanies to appease the weapon’s spirit. Jamming is

often a problem due to their high rate of fire, and when used

in two-man teams the loader can expect to be clearing shells as

well as loading new ammunition packs or feed belts."

We see here to references to what you speak of.

"...they (Lascannons) are often crewed by two or more people."

"...and when used (meaning Heavy Bolters) in two-man teams..."

If it had meant always, it would have said always. Since it says often, it means that Lascannons sometimes aren't used in two-man teams. So there's nothing saying they're not man-portable. In fact, that's right in its name. So the Lascannon can be used by a lone, moving person so long as he has the Strength to carry it. Furthemore, the Heavy Bolter only states that the Heavy Bolter can be used in two-man teams, not that it must be. Ergo, it can be used by a lone man if he meets the Strength requirements.

To summarize? It is extremely impolite, nay, downright rude, to make things up on the spot, Fgdsfg. I think you should stop doing that.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I never said that this is always the case. You quote me, but I'm not convinced you read me. You're attacking a strawman of your own making.

Then pray tell, what did you mean by "functionally stationary" and by so casually disregarding all evidence to contrary?

Then pray tell, what did you mean by "functionally stationary" and by so casually disregarding all evidence to contrary?

I'm not sure how such simple language can be misinterpreted. May I suggest an English dictionary? It's obvious that neither of us have English as a first language, but I really can't see what the issue is,here, so I'm having difficulty explaining it to you.

I'm not sure what there is to be misunderstood here. You claimed that Heavy weapons are "functionally stationary", as in unable to be man-portable. This with the implication, I might add, that players who don't have the same opinion as yours are clearly misreading the rules/the fluff.

Magellan proved you wrong by the actual rules. You then claimed that their entries in the book backed your fluff assertion up, again with the implication that it was only by RAW that Magellan was right. I then proved that statement of yours wrong by quoting the book.

What exactly are you failing to understand here?

I'm not sure what there is to be misunderstood here. You claimed that Heavy weapons are "functionally stationary", as in unable to be man-portable. This with the implication, I might add, that players who don't have the same opinion as yours are clearly misreading the rules/the fluff.

Magellan proved you wrong by the actual rules. You then claimed that their entries in the book backed your fluff assertion up, again with the implication that it was only by RAW that Magellan was right. I then proved that statement of yours wrong by quoting the book.

What exactly are you failing to understand here?

These two claims, color-coded for stupid, are patently false. You are constructing strawmen. I made no such assertions, they are all in your head. I, again, suggest you re-read what I've written, instead of coming up with your own reinterpretations of what's been said.

Magellan didn't "prove me wrong"; in fact, I agreed that he was entirely correct by RAW, and I always did. Might I suggest, perhaps, that if Magellan has a problem with what I've written in response to him, that he responds to it himself? Because Magellan usually don't end up having to construct strawmen to move a discussion along.

Keep yer shirt on there, sparky. No need to get buttmad.

Agreed. It makes much more sense to have skills divided between class of weapon (i.e. size) and type (i.e. which branch of sci-fi physics it works on). A competent pistoleer should be notably better if handed a plasma pistol, even if neither he nor his opponent have ever seen a plasma weapon before.

My only comment to the above is that (especially for rogue trader), mounted-class weapons shouldn't be forgotten about. More than a lot of other settings, being asked to man a gun-cutter's turret is quite a likely occurance.

I would say that that belongs either in the realm of Skillchecks, or under Heavy Weapons; most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary - it's just that people staring at the tables never notice (or care). And they're all sorted under heavy weapons (Lascannons, Heavy Bolters and the like).

Here's your post right here. Look at what you said about them being functionally stationary. As well as your claim that people never notice or care about them being "functionally stationary".

most of the Heavy Weapons in the line are already functionally stationary

That's crazy talk. With Blackbone Bracing and some Synthmuscle and/or power armour, even the weediest of gits can enjoy the benefits of running around with an assault cannon.*

* I take no responsibility for characters vuilt with rolled stats.

By pure RAW, this is true, but as soon as you take weapon descriptions and narrative into account... not so much. Which was my only point.

Here's your second claim, that them not being portable is only true in RAW, but not in descriptions and narrative.

So could you try and simmer down and behave a little more civil now, please?

Relax! Have a homebrew!

Keep yer shirt on there, sparky. No need to get buttmad.

[...]

So could you try and simmer down and behave a little more civil now, please?

Like I said, I honestly have no idea how to be any more clear to you. What you're arguing against is a strawman you attribute to me - I have no defence against that, since it would force me to take a position in the argument that I never had.

I'm still not sure what you're trying to do here, except start an argument for the sake of arguing.

Does me liking pie help anything here?