... How about 5 points, and the Phantom cannot be targeted at Range 3. Simple to word, simple to use, and not too outrageously effective since Range 3 shots are fairly ineffective anyway. For ECM, maybe have the opponent roll an attack die when he attempts to TL the Phantom, and he succeeds on hits/crits. That would have the advantage of using a pre-existing mechanism for simplicities sake but would still perform a logical function. Self-Destruct looks just fine to me exactly as you wrote it. Since it is a sensor upgrade that is only available to relatively expensive ships (and uses up that valuable slot), plus it requires an action, I don't think it is out of balance at all.

Simple is sometimes better, you mean? Well i guess your are right in this point - X-Wing players are not neccessarily hardcore strategy players, so how about this: you cant be attacked at range 3 and you gain +1 defence. If you get hit, the cloak will be disengaged (just like the existing stealth device) but you can activate it again next round.

ECM sounds good to me - why don't include a dice? Ppl love this.

For self-destruct i don't wanted to create some sort of TIE Kamikaze squads - so system upgrade only

Thanks for your feedback

TBH X-Wing is a high-strategy game, you have to make plans 3 or 4 turns out due to the way maneuvers are planned. You then need modify you plan depending on the enemies moves. Complexity in the rules is not equal to more strategy. Take a game like 40k, it has a rulebook you could kill a hamster with, has a lot of paperwork to do, but when you come down to it 80% of games (number made up but feels right) come down to walking or running at the enemy as fast as you can while firing guns, and the only real strategy comes before the game with list building. and as a lot of players net-deck (grab lists off the internet.) There is very little strategy at all in a large percentage of games of 40k

If that's all the strategy you need in 40k, I should have some wins. I don't. But this isn't the place to argue 40k.

If that's all the strategy you need in 40k, I should have some wins. I don't. But this isn't the place to argue 40k.

Can't do anything if the dice gods don't like you. But truthfully there is more than just luck in 40k, but it's definitely more tactical than strategic once you get into the game.

The real point was Strategy and Rule Complexity are not in any way linked.

Actually, I really like the looks of the ship. Also, I don't think the points costs you have here are off by much. It is basically a TIE Advanced with +1 gun. 2 points more than the overpriced TIE Advanced is on the low side but somewhat reasonable, especially since it gives up Target Lock (which makes that 3 firepower significantly less dangerous) and the ability to carry missiles. The sensors upgrade is an excellent alternative it receives in return, but it does still need to pay the cost of that upgrade to use it. Make it 24 points base, which is a TIE Advanced plus 3 points for the improved guns, and call it good.

As for the cloaking device, it is too powerful plain and simple. What you have there would be utterly game breaking, especially on high-PS ships, even if it cost 30 points. It seems like you were trying for "realism", but if we were actually going to do things "realistically" then a one-off super high-tech system like that should cost somewhere on the order of 10,000 points to reflect the actual cost of developing and deploying it. So if you want to translate it into usable game stats, you will need to tone down the effectiveness. How about 5 points, and the Phantom cannot be targeted at Range 3. Simple to word, simple to use, and not too outrageously effective since Range 3 shots are fairly ineffective anyway. For ECM, maybe have the opponent roll an attack die when he attempts to TL the Phantom, and he succeeds on hits/crits. That would have the advantage of using a pre-existing mechanism for simplicities sake but would still perform a logical function. Self-Destruct looks just fine to me exactly as you wrote it. Since it is a sensor upgrade that is only available to relatively expensive ships (and uses up that valuable slot), plus it requires an action, I don't think it is out of balance at all.

What about a cloaking ability like mine (post #18). Would that be broken or too hard to implement?

It sounds like something that would be difficult to implement, yes. It would come with a lot of questions about mines/overlap/etc., and odd timing issues. Not impossible, but probably not something you would want to see outside of a couple scenario games.

As for Cloak activating/deactivating and adding defense. The way you describe it (+1 Agility most of the time) would make the Phantom a very, very hard target. Agility 4 is extremely effective. The only reason Stealth device is playable is because it goes away after the first hit. As you have described it, the Phantom would probably have Agility 4 vs. every shot coming its way. The only chance anyone would have to get past it would be if the first ship in line managed to get a hit, which would effectively make your Phantom 3/4/3/2 stats. That is far too much defense, since Agility and Hull/Shields are multipliers for one another (each agility point is more effective the more health you have, and each health is more effective the more agility you have).

Also, while being untargetable at Range 3 is not super powerful, it would be very useful, since you can use it to avoid HLCs, torpedoes and missiles. Combined with a TIE fighter dial, the Phantom would be very good at getting into close combat unscathed and avoiding "snipers" floating around the outside of the furball. It would combine mechanical simplicity with complex play, which is ideal.

What I was wondering was could you give the Phantom 2 Agility, but a card similar to Stealth Device with +2 Agility, that could be reset if it drops as an Action. That way it would be Agility 4 until hit, then the ship would drop to Agility 2 until it it had a chance to take an Action to re-enable stealth.

It's faily simple rules-wise. And does fit thematically, stealthed ships when they appear in films, the stealth generally stutters and fails for a tiny bit after getting hit by a missile or lasers. And in this time the rest of your ships would get a chance to target it before it disappears again.

What I was wondering was could you give the Phantom 2 Agility, but a card similar to Stealth Device with +2 Agility, that could be reset if it drops as an Action. That way it would be Agility 4 until hit, then the ship would drop to Agility 2 until it it had a chance to take an Action to re-enable stealth.

It's faily simple rules-wise. And does fit thematically, stealthed ships when they appear in films, the stealth generally stutters and fails for a tiny bit after getting hit by a missile or lasers. And in this time the rest of your ships would get a chance to target it before it disappears again.

This would render the feared TIE Phantom, super-secret special operations starfighter, a joke. Sorry man. But then it would be better to not introduce the Phantom at all. I think there is no need to design ships that are exactly like the ones we already have.

I still think the TIE Phantom is a cool ship, with cool design and with very high potential for X-Wing, the miniatures game.

You will see - it will come. And it will be a fine ship for X-Wing.

Besides - if I had suggested in the forums to create a Darth Vader crew card reading a text like " After you perform an attack against an enemy ship, you may suffer 2 damage to cause that ship to suffer 1 critical damage. " everybody would shout: This card is absolutely broken! You'll destroy the game. Its totally overpowered and overpriced. I dont mean to be rude or offence ... its just ... most peolpe are lacking scope. You can't argue with them. And actually thats not how game design works. Sure ideas are developed, discussed within the team, tested and refined and when its fun (or the time is spent) it will be implemented.

What I was wondering was could you give the Phantom 2 Agility, but a card similar to Stealth Device with +2 Agility, that could be reset if it drops as an Action. That way it would be Agility 4 until hit, then the ship would drop to Agility 2 until it it had a chance to take an Action to re-enable stealth.

It's faily simple rules-wise. And does fit thematically, stealthed ships when they appear in films, the stealth generally stutters and fails for a tiny bit after getting hit by a missile or lasers. And in this time the rest of your ships would get a chance to target it before it disappears again.

This would render the feared TIE Phantom, super-secret special operations starfighter, a joke. Sorry man. But then it would be better to not introduce the Phantom at all. I think there is no need to design ships that are exactly like the ones we already have.

I still think the TIE Phantom is a cool ship, with cool design and with very high potential for X-Wing, the miniatures game.

You will see - it will come. And it will be a fine ship for X-Wing.

Besides - if I had suggested in the forums to create a Darth Vader crew card reading a text like " After you perform an attack against an enemy ship, you may suffer 2 damage to cause that ship to suffer 1 critical damage. " everybody would shout: This card is absolutely broken! You'll destroy the game. Its totally overpowered and overpriced. I dont mean to be rude or offence ... its just ... most peolpe are lacking scope. You can't argue with them. And actually thats not how game design works. Sure ideas are developed, discussed within the team, tested and refined and when its fun (or the time is spent) it will be implemented.

Ok, see this post right here, shows how dogmatic you are and then call others dogmatic for not believing you or taking what you are offering. Do you see the irony here? If you don't find X-wing players that high into strategy, that right there is your first flaw, I find high strategy game extremely entertaining and the reason I like this game over something like 40k is that I nor the people I play with have to spend over $1k to just get into the game.You ask for criticism, it was given, and people have actually expanded on your idea quite well. The problem you are exhibiting is that you want an overpowered ship for undercost, and when people try to align the ship and abilities to better facilitate the game you get angry and say people are attacking you. If any one is lacking scope, it is you.

You do realize the TIE interceptor would more then likely have 4+ agility dice as well right? Or that the A-wing would be able to barrel roll and have a rear firing arc, right? Or that ships that have shields should all be able to regen them, correct? Just because in the universe they have the ability to do that doesn't mean they will flow well into this game. What FFGs has done is incorporate the ideas of the universe into a balanced game.

I know what you are trying to do, is getting universe exact replicas into a game format, but it wont happen. You will have trade off to make things work better in this game. Don't get so offensive when people are trying to help you.

This would render the feared TIE Phantom, super-secret special operations starfighter, a joke. Sorry man. But then it would be better to not introduce the Phantom at all.

....... I can agree with this I think.

Super secret extreme star fighters probably don't have a place in the Xwing minis environment. I don't have a connection to the ship nor do I like its design, I would rather not see it the. See it take up valuable production space in this line of minis OR see it break this very very well balanced game.

What I was wondering was could you give the Phantom 2 Agility, but a card similar to Stealth Device with +2 Agility, that could be reset if it drops as an Action. That way it would be Agility 4 until hit, then the ship would drop to Agility 2 until it it had a chance to take an Action to re-enable stealth.

It's faily simple rules-wise. And does fit thematically, stealthed ships when they appear in films, the stealth generally stutters and fails for a tiny bit after getting hit by a missile or lasers. And in this time the rest of your ships would get a chance to target it before it disappears again.

This would render the feared TIE Phantom, super-secret special operations starfighter, a joke. Sorry man. But then it would be better to not introduce the Phantom at all. I think there is no need to design ships that are exactly like the ones we already have.

I still think the TIE Phantom is a cool ship, with cool design and with very high potential for X-Wing, the miniatures game.

You will see - it will come. And it will be a fine ship for X-Wing.

Besides - if I had suggested in the forums to create a Darth Vader crew card reading a text like " After you perform an attack against an enemy ship, you may suffer 2 damage to cause that ship to suffer 1 critical damage. " everybody would shout: This card is absolutely broken! You'll destroy the game. Its totally overpowered and overpriced. I dont mean to be rude or offence ... its just ... most peolpe are lacking scope. You can't argue with them. And actually thats not how game design works. Sure ideas are developed, discussed within the team, tested and refined and when its fun (or the time is spent) it will be implemented.

Here's the issues with your ideas in this thread. The ship as is hideously undercosted. PS 2 should be 26 or 27 pts. And the thing you have to realize about making the ships unattackable, is that it will take away any fun in the game. The comparison to Vader shows just how little you understand balance. Vader has a steep cost to him. It honestly doesn't matter the cost of your ship, it will turn the game into a stall game. The Phantom will only attack when it can't be attacked back. And, if you give yourself initiative, you will win even if not shot is fired. The Phantom may be made, but it won't be this undercosted, game breaking piece of fanwank you came up with.

This is the last ship that I am specifically waiting for.

Alot of our group plays the Star Wars role playing game but mix in Xwing games when they do a space dog fight. They are pilots on a cap ship kinda like galactica but anyways, they made a phantom that works well so far, but I have my thoughts on it so here it is is....

Tie Phanton

Attack: 3

Agility: 3

Hull: 2

Shields: 3

Focus, TL, Barrel Roll

Upgrade cards so far

Cloaking Generator (modification)

Tie Phantom Only: Action, During your perform action stage lower the Attack of this ship by 1 to increase the Agility by 1, Remove all Target locks on the ship.

ECM (lol same name) Modification

Tie Phantom Only: Action, Activate during your perform action stage, This ship cannot be attacked at range 3

(but it may attack a ship at range 3): This isnt in the text but this might be in the FAQ so you can attack a ship at range 3 they just can't attack you. I think its implied but just in case i wrote it here

Personal Opinion: I think it should be attack 2 with that ability. 4 Agility is amazing but lowering your attack power to 1 would create a "do i really want to do it" situation. I believe they cost it at 18 points but i think it should be attack 2 (with everything else the same) and costed at 16 points. The modification costs 3 points and I think that is fair but an arguement could be made for 2 points. The target lock thing is huge though. I also think it should be a system upgrade like the ones on the b-wing and lambda.

Gaming groups opinion: They said 3 attack because you always use the modification so that basically makes it a tie fighter with 4 agility. They also said that 2 attack at range 1 would really suck. Like i said i disagree using the ability means you want to get into range one and you can, especially with 4 Agility. I can see how they want it to be 3 attack though, it means you aren't forced to take the modification. and at 18 points thats either an interceptor or this so dials will end up mattering more

I do have to say that so far it has been rather well balanced and well recieved and doesnt make anything obsolete, while still feeling very unique. A few new people thought it was an actual ship. It is a hard ship to hit, especially with the mods but the damage is still on par with other ships. It is definately a pain sometimes but once you hit it it REALLY feels it with those 2 hull. Its kinda like an x-wing and an a-wing got put together. Anyways we have been playing with this for about 4 months so far and i'll post any unique pilots we come up with but i really like it.

We also have a defender we have been playing with. Basically it has 0 attack but 3 Agility, 3 Hull, 3 Shields and 2 Cannon and 3 torpedo upgrade slots so you kinda build the armament yourself. Its been alot of fun but we aren't done testing it out. I may make a post about it tomorrow. It has Focus, and target lock only and is costed at 17 points base then you upgrade it and a modification we made for it was.

Rapid Reloaders (modification)

Action: Flip this card over to unflip an ordance card on this ship. 3 points

Basically it breathes life into the missiles and the secondary expendable weapon game. It also costs 3 points which can be steep but we figured it cant be more than the missiles. It works well for APT but they are hard to use sometimes (cause just getting them back takes an action) so i think its actually better on clusters or maybe concussion. We have been trying it out costing 4 points but i dont want to change the subject to anyways hope this helps. anyone is welcome to use these ideas as well.

Personal Opinion: I think it should be attack 2 with that ability. 4 Agility is amazing but lowering your attack power to 1 would create a "do i really want to do it" situation. I believe they cost it at 18 points but i think it should be attack 2 (with everything else the same) and costed at 16 points. The modification costs 3 points and I think that is fair but an arguement could be made for 2 points. The target lock thing is huge though. I also think it should be a system upgrade like the ones on the b-wing and lambda.

TBH, I don't know if it's over the top with Attack 3. Your still spending your Action + losing 1 Attack to get an extra Agility till the end of the turn. It's wonderful when you believe you are going to be focus fired, but not really over the top.

Without Attack 3 it lacks the punch it should have as an advanced fighter.

WOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

IT IS THE TIE PHANTOM!!

And it has a dedicated Phantom-only cloaking device.

And it is even more DEATHLY then my take.

I'm happy

This topic may be closed now

Because it was necessary to necro a three month old thread just to gloat before closing it.

Because it was necessary to necro a three month old thread just to gloat before closing it.

LOL you stinker!

YESSSSSSSSSSSS IT WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best news ever!!!!!

Yep... looks fairly necessary to me....

Yep totally worth it -.-

"At least now all the debates about the Phantom and Defender can end" he stated erroneously. Poor misguided ThatOneGuy. He could not possibly predict the bloody Forum Wars that those blurry, half-covered cards would ignite.

I almost got the feeling that you guys dont want that topic to vanish

So, just ignore it

TIE PHANTOM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I almost got the feeling that you guys dont want that topic to vanish

So, just ignore it

TIE PHANTOM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yep, it can be fun to annoy everyone lol