So, I was doing theory craft for Wedge w/ APT, and I started to wonder - how good is the APT anyways?

In order to make good use of them, you have to have a Focus and a TL, and unless you're the Major, you have to be in range 1. Note, I'm only going to consider them vs. a 3 attack ship for now.

So, the scenario is that you're an X wing / B wing / Slave 1 / (basically not at Y wing or Bomber) at range 1 of your opponent. Your primary attack at range 1 has 4 attack dice. You have both a TL and a Focus token, how you get it does not matter.

If you shoot APT, you're going to get at least 3 hits. But chances are you're going to get more. There's a 1.46% chance of getting 4 hits, a .1% chance of only getting 3 hits, and a 98.44% chance of connecting on all 5 hits. This averages out to 4.9834 hits.

So then lets look at the alternative; a 4 dice range 1 attack with a TL and a Focus. You will roll 4 hits 77%, 3 hits 21%, and 2 hits 2%, for an average of 3.75 hits.

I'm going to take a slight pause in the analysis to say that the difference between rolling 1 hit and 2 hits is minor compared to the difference between rolling 3 hits and 4 hits. The logic being that a single hit is unlikely to go through and cause damage, and while the second one is more likely, its still unlikely to do so against several ships. However, 3 hits is likely to go through, and 4 is almost guaranteed to go through. But that means that the difference between 3 and 4 is the same as the difference between 4 and 5. They both add essentially 1 full damage.

So, for 6 points, you're basically getting an additional 1.25 damage. How does this stack up against other choices? Well, the gunner (especially paired with marksmanship) is at least 1 damage per attack, and is reusable. PTL, and therefore a TL+F on every attack is worth .75 damage on range 1 attacks, and slightly more than .5 damage on range 2 and 3 attacks. Once again, it is reusable (and costs half as much as APT). HLC is the only thing that costs more (besides Luke which I like to think of as a 5 point gunner, and a 2 point mod to that gunner), but its analysis is a bit more complicated.

Range 1 HLC does nothing. Range 2 it adds an attack die, but negates criticals (which for the sake of math, I just consider to be a regular hit anyways). That extra attack die pushes average hits up from 2.25 to 3.0 (with a focus or a TL). Furthermore, at range three, you get that increase, but it prevents the enemy from gaining an additional evade (against a tie that's worth .75 evade. Against a 2 agility ship its worth .83 evade, and against a 1 agility its worth .78 - assuming focused defenders) which can directly translate to more damage to the ship. So range two it's worth ~.75 damage/turn and range three it's worth ~1.5damage/turn.

So, my conclusion after going through all of this is that the extra 1.25 damage that the APT is never worth it on an X wing, B wing, or Firespray. B wing and Firesprays would be much better off taking the HLC over the APT, and an X wing would be better off with PTL to TL and F. Given only Luke and Wedge can take PTL, so if you were flying a rookie/red/biggs/garvin, that might be a reason to use the APT. But why would want Biggs to ever be at range 1?


I may do an analysis of it on a Y wing or Bomber later, but right now, can anyone think of a reason to equip it on any of these ships that I'm overlooking?


Note, with all of that said, one of my favorite wave three builds right now is:
Garvin w/ PT
Dutch w/ PT, APT, Ion, R2
Blue w/ HLC, FCS

I thought of putting the APT on Garvin, but for reasons above decided against it, and I'm still thinking about dropping the Ion on Dutch as it's quite a lot of points on 1 ship, but I haven't tried it out yet.

I think they are only good on Wedge IMO, you just tell your opponent that Wedge is using PtL and TL + Focus, and attacking his TIE with APT. They can just remove the model from the table if it doesn't have an evade token. Oh course you could roll epic bad and have a 4 blank come out roll.

Gunner only adds value if your first attack misses, which is only likely against high agility ships. Otherwise, Gunner usually adds 0 damage. Even when Gunner "adds" damage, it does not add that damage to a single large hit but does so over time by allowing you to get one damage through when you would have missed entirely. This is not the same thing as adding one damage to every hit, and is far inferior to it. Also, that 1.25 extra damage is enough to push your average inflicted damage to 3, which is enough to one shot Imperials. Finally, that extra damage also gives you an excellent chance of a one-shot kill vs. any 5 health ship in the game, which is a very big deal. Lastly, it only requires one shot to gain that extra damage, which means there are fewer opportunities for your opponent to eliminate your ship before it gets its "extra" damage in.

Wedge with an APT is almost guaranteed to one-shot kill a TIE of any type, regardless of whether or not it has actions, and he has at LEAST a 1/4 chance of one-shotting an X-Wing or TIE Advanced. That is not true without APT, and the difference between needing one shot or two to finish someone you are face to face with is the difference between them firing back at you at R1 (and you having already used your Focus) or not. That is an ENORMOUSLY big deal for Wedge, and still a pretty big deal for anyone else.

So yes, they are good. They are difficult to employ, best on High-PS ships, and expensive, but they are very good.

Lemme go ahead and throw another kink into your math on the Firespray (and eventually the Bomber): You can also have Homing Missiles.

Homing Missiles improve your odds of getting the AdvPT off, as it requires but does not spend its target lock, and can be fired at the other two ranges.

However, in general, 6 points on a discarded upgrade is quite a lot, even if you get the 5 damage every time.

Wedge with an APT is almost guaranteed to one-shot kill a TIE of any type, regardless of whether or not it has actions...

This is the big thing to me. How much value does a 98% chance to one shot a Tie have. The problem is that there isn'a an easy answer.

One shot a TI in a 4 TI list is a huge thing, but doing the same to an academy pilot in a 8 tie swarm is another.

So IMO at least, the answer is 'depends on what the other guy is playing'

You can also have Homing Missiles.

Now that is an interesting combo that I never considered.

As others have stated above, APT for me is worth it for for taking out either the opponents named charecter leading said swarm, or the lead interceptor in an elite build. The empire has good maneuverability so most 3 attack ships score only 1 hit every now and then, but when you can use APT, you are almost guaranteed 5 hits which will ALWAYS knock out a stealth device worst case, so your 6 point cost guarantees you a 2 point immediate payoff if the guy rolls 3 evades plus a token. (if he rolls 5 evades, well it was just never meant to be ). So for me, bringing down an elite to normal level evade worst case, and outright killing them best case is worth it for 6 points for the rebels in my humble opinion.

As for Imps, the tradoff is even better as rebels suffer from poor evade and your named bomber can get it off at range 2, so you can snipe out named characters quite easily, and with your 6 hull, you have a good chance of living to see it go off.

I woun't use Advanced Proton Torpedoes on Wedge. At range 1 Wedge is already really nasty. I think he would be more nasty with the torpedoes but he already draws a lot of hate. Heaven forbid Wedge dies before he get's a chance to fire his 6 point APT.

When you consider that they are only one point less than a HLC, they seem really expensive for the minimal improvement you get on Wedge.

Really like them on ships that start with only 2 attack dice and can carry more than one piece of ordinance. I realy love them on TIE Bombers (though I usually give them cluster missiles for their close range attack, becasue I also love Jonus)

I would almost never use APT. They are way too expensive and require way too much set up. They should have made it 7 points and reduce it down to 4 attack and just make it torps + marksmen. And even with that I'd still want a HLC that can shoot 4 shots every turn I have someone in my arc.

Never been one for Missiles / Torps but finding the AdvTorps good on a basic Bomber. If you have Squad leader ship in support (cheaply done with Black Tie) then you have the Lock and focus you need easily enough. I think 5 damage in one go can be a game changer, and the fear of it can cause your opponent into mistakes.

They are fantastic against low agility ships. The B-Wing and Falcon are pretty much guaranteed to take 4 hits and most likely 5. I will trade 6 points to take out 50%+ of an Ibti or Ten or a YT-1300. I like the Firespray to deliver mine :-) with a named spray with PtL and Recon Specialist getting the shot of is not that hard as you are easily able to get to range 1 whilst surviving fairly intact doing so.

Note, with all of that said, one of my favorite wave three builds right now is:

Garvin w/ PT

Dutch w/ PT, APT, Ion, R2

Blue w/ HLC, FCS

Unless you get lucky and your Firespray's HLC strips the shields off of the Y, and your 4 TIE frontal assault finishes him off with 10 points of unused Torps still in the tubes...

hmmm.. APT are more useful than some might think... I was never going to use them as well. I just played a game today and used two as we were in a time crunch to make our lists so i threw em in to eat up some points. they performed very well and gave me an extremely early advantage. I suggest PTL on anything with an APT

Note, with all of that said, one of my favorite wave three builds right now is:

Garvin w/ PT

Dutch w/ PT, APT, Ion, R2

Blue w/ HLC, FCS

Unless you get lucky and your Firespray's HLC strips the shields off of the Y, and your 4 TIE frontal assault finishes him off with 10 points of unused Torps still in the tubes...

Well, as I said when that happened... I f'd up. Plus, I do believe I still won...

Note, with all of that said, one of my favorite wave three builds right now is:

Garvin w/ PT

Dutch w/ PT, APT, Ion, R2

Blue w/ HLC, FCS

Unless you get lucky and your Firespray's HLC strips the shields off of the Y, and your 4 TIE frontal assault finishes him off with 10 points of unused Torps still in the tubes...

Well, as I said when that happened... I f'd up. Plus, I do believe I still won...

Yup, torp instead of ion in that situation and it's an entirely different game.

I ran a simulation myself and can confirm Khyros's numbers. Putting APT on anything with 3 attack dice (4 at range 1) means you're basically paying 6 points for 1 extra hit, most of the time. I would rather put 4 points into a shield upgrade (or better yet, Chewbacca crew member if there's a Falcon on the board) and save myself a hit (or 2) by spending only 4 points.

Sure, that one extra hit afforded by APT could be the deciding factor on whether an opponent ship lives or dies, but having those 6 points to invest elsewhere in your list may also be a deciding factor in whether your squad wins or loses.

Conclusion: Don't even think about putting APT on your X-Wings and B-Wings, folks. But of course put them on Rhymer.

I ran a simulation myself and can confirm Khyros's numbers. Putting APT on anything with 3 attack dice (4 at range 1) means you're basically paying 6 points for 1 extra hit, most of the time. I would rather put 4 points into a shield upgrade (or better yet, Chewbacca crew member if there's a Falcon on the board) and save myself a hit (or 2) by spending only 4 points.

Sure, that one extra hit afforded by APT could be the deciding factor on whether an opponent ship lives or dies, but having those 6 points to invest elsewhere in your list may also be a deciding factor in whether your squad wins or loses.

Conclusion: Don't even think about putting APT on your X-Wings and B-Wings, folks. But of course put them on Rhymer.

well you have to remember you can change up to 3 blanks into focus dice results, if you have push the limits or if you target locked the previous turn that means you can use a focus action as well. that combo is a minimum of 3 hits, most likely 4 and a really good chance of 5 hits. I agree 6 points is steep but its the price you pay for an attack that you know is going to do some damage without a chance of missing. APT on wedge is even more brutal..

I'm planning on using garven to make sure a rookie can fire off the advanced torps to maximum effect. I haven't done the maths but the ability to turn 3 blanks into focuses and therefore hits makes apt significantly better than a 3 dice +1 range 1 primary attack.

I just did the math for you. You have a 98% chance of 5 hits with APT. You have a 74% chance of 4 hits with TL/F. An average of 1.25 additional hits rolled for those 6 points. The only way I really see them being "worth it" is that there's a significant chance of 1 shotting a TIE. 6 points spent to kill a 12+ point TIE before it does anything seems to be a fair trade off.

well you have to remember you can change up to 3 blanks into focus dice results, if you have push the limits or if you target locked the previous turn that means you can use a focus action as well. that combo is a minimum of 3 hits, most likely 4 and a really good chance of 5 hits. I agree 6 points is steep but its the price you pay for an attack that you know is going to do some damage without a chance of missing. APT on wedge is even more brutal..

I did account for the 3 blanks changing into focus. I assumed anyone firing APT would have a Focus token (because it's basically required) and a Target Lock (because it's literally required) and be at Range 1 (because that's also required).

Then I compared it to a ship with 3 attack dice, with Focus Token and Target Lock at Range 1 (in effect, 4 attack dice with Target Lock and Focus), but this ship was using a primary weapon attack.

APT on Wedge is more brutal than the usual case, but so too is primary attack at Range 1 on Wedge. The difference between APT and any 4-dice primary weapon attack is basically 1 hit (but occasionally 2 hits).

I've been using them for a while here and there on x-wings with Katarn in support and I find them to be generally excellent against ties. Each time I use them, it either takes out the tie (interceptor/fighter) completely or deals them a crit and a hit. To take out 12-20 points with 1 shot can be a game changer and though not always a deciding factor, they can definitely make a large difference against swarms (but not as good v the 8 swarm). Nowhere near always helpful, but if you plan for it they can be ruthless