I have run 3 sessions now (70 xp rewarded) for my group with only published official EotE material and have found that most combats are taking place in the short to engaged ranged bands. With only 1 or 2 difficulty dice to appose (usually) 2 proficiency and 1 ability dice (more for the combat focused characters), and folks using 2 moves to gain double aim adding +2 boost dice, it is one shot and drop. An opponent or PC is down.

Does anybody else see an issue with the basic combat system as written? Just think when folks are tossing 4 or 5 proficiency dice to be apposed by only 1 or 2 difficulty dice and maybe a setback die for cover...

As the game is expecting a party of various skills, out of 4 players, we only have 1 combat focused PC, and thus most of the party has only a 3 soak.

I am proposing to raise the combat checks by one level. So short range will be 2 difficulty and medium range 3 difficulty etc..

Thoughts ?

JZ

Combat is never deadly enough!

Personally I do not think the combat system is too lethal. If you as GM are shooting them up with E-WEBs, that's one thing. Blasters and vibro-weapons are very lethal in canon. Stormtrooper armor doesn't completely stop them; unarmored humanoids can easily be 1-shotted with a hit to the visceral mass.

Now, regarding your experiences. Do your players use cover? Buy gear/Talents with Defense or that upgrade incoming attack Difficulty? Use Destiny to upgrade their pools when they need it? Use generated Advantages/Triumph to inflict disadvantages on their enemies' checks?

Do they or your NPC enemies focus fire? Do they usually shoot with intent to kill, or just to stun and capture?

Most thugs & grunts arent going to be smart enough (or GM's should play them as such) to focus fire on PC's, just like most MMO's (at low levels) wont try to gangbang 1 player in a group. At lower levels you should be going a little easy on the Players and spreading out damage, til they have time to pick up more defensive talents.

You mentioned you had 1 combat character, so sounds like that shouldnt be the focus of the game.

Also if you dont have a doctor and/or adequate supply of stims thats another problem.

I'd more likely attribute failure to you as a GM or your players not used to the EoE system.

You can heal 5+4+3+2+1=15 wounds a day yourself using only a maneuver & 5 stims. A doctor with a few ranks in surgeon will make combat significantly easier, just like any other game with healers.

It's more of an issue of the GM balancing the NPC numbers vs PCs. You have 1 combat character, if you had 4 combat character you would be posting on how combat is too easy. It has less to do with the system, and more to do with the group and GM.

Until, you get a better handle of the combat and group, bring the enemies in waves. That way if it's too easy you can bring n the 2nd wave, if it's too had don't.

Is it an issue of people hitting too easily or it taking too few blaster shots to down an opponent?

My only thought is that I would experiment with increasing difficulty in small increments, maybe a threat die at a time, maybe add one per range category (so 1 purple and 1 black per range). You don't want a fight that goes "miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss*." That's not a fun fight.

* it also summons her:

Even noncombat characters can be pretty good at combat. Sure, you won't be getting Triumph without flipping Destiny, but Pilots and Thieves with high Agility, and basically ANY Rodian, can (and should) take Strain to double-Aim when it counts, and can get quite a few successes on just ~4d8+2d6 Ability+Boost dice.

Are your players taking cover? Or flanking to remove cover bonus?

Its your game, but I do think there's something you've missed.

What weapons are your players using?

How do you design encounters? On the fly? Or using "the list"?

You know that exceeding your WT doesn't mean you die, right?

Stimpacks, stimpacks everywhere...

I find it interesting that about half of the people on the forum in similar topics have thought that combat is too deadly, while the other half thinks otherwise.

I tend to think if no body is perfectly happy then it is a good balance.

we hit more often than in previous edition. That's a fact... And damage depends on success now.

I still think unpersonalized flat defense lack of something... if not talking about opposed check (d6 style).

D20 defense = 10+talent+range+equipment+maneuvre+rank+dex

EOTE defense = 2 challenge+talent+range+equipment+maneuvre+ nothing+nothing (some ranking bonus and ability bonus ?)

we hit more often than in previous edition. That's a fact... And damage depends on success now.

I still think unpersonalized flat defense lack of something... if not talking about opposed check (d6 style).

D20 defense = 10+talent+range+equipment+maneuvre+rank+dex

EOTE defense = 2 challenge+talent+range+equipment+maneuvre+ nothing+nothing (some ranking bonus and ability bonus ?)

This sounds like it could just as easily be an issue of weak encounter design. If you're standing out in an open field on a clear day that's slighty overcast so the sun can't get in your eyes then you've got defense nailed.

Buuut... if the weathers bad... that's a setback die. If there's a lot of moving machinery...upgrade die. If one side starts tossing out smoke grenades...setback die. On the forest moon of Endor while a larger battle rages all around....upgrade. Outflanked by several groups of enemies? Setback...or upgrade... or both!

Also adversaries can benefit from advantage and threat too, are you including these dice?

Are you factoring in effects from critical injuries?

That dude over there is a nemesis, are you factoring in his Adversary 2 Talent?

Once you start bringing all these things into play the game is going to start changing. Difficulties will go up and down, the narrative mechanic will actually start to matter just as much as the binary result of the hit and the encounter will become something more memorable. Edge works best when shooting is one option, and not always the best one.

While I'll agree that once you do land a hit it's more likely to take out the target character, this game also puts a lot more pressure on the GM to come up with interesting encounters and avoiding metagaming then other systems do.

If your GM is just bringing over the 30x30 well lit and largely empty dungeon chamber from his D&D 4e campaign... yeah combat's going to be quick and deadly. But then again, if you're in a 30ftx30ft well lit empty room shooting at each other with handguns and assault rifles it darn well should be short and deadly.

^{we hit more often than in previous edition. That's a fact... And damage depends on success now.}

^{I still think unpersonalized flat defense lack of something... if not talking about opposed check (d6 style).}

^{D20 defense = 10+talent+range+equipment+maneuvre+rank+dex}

^{EOTE defense = 2 challenge+talent+range+equipment+maneuvre+ nothing+nothing (some ranking bonus and ability bonus ?)}

^{I'm not sure I see what your getting at. Are you saying that EotE combat is too simplified? What does unpersonalized defense even mean? The RAW takes equipment, talents, skills into acount, and you can upgrade the difficulty with cover and a Destiny point. How is that unpersonalized?}

I want to say that naked uncle owen and naked boba fett have the same défense, except a short black dice from a défense talent.

That's a pb for me I guess

The active défense system from warhammer 3 grants a better defense progression as characters grow stronger for now.

I want to say that naked uncle owen and naked boba fett have the same défense, except a short black dice from a défense talent.

That's a pb for me I guess

The active défense system from warhammer 3 grants a better defense progression as characters grow stronger for now.

There are very few talents that actually add defense. Most upgrade the difficulty (which is way more powerful).

I found combat to be pretty deadly for ALL parties involved, but it makes people THINK before running in blasters blazing.

My big combat from the previous game (the first combat for the group occurred on Game 2, oddly enough) had the party of a Scoundrel, Politico, Doctor, Outlaw Tech and Gadgeteer going toe-to-toe with 3 Stormtroopers (minions) and a Journeyman Bounty Hunter (sans disruptor rifle). There were two pretty big wounds caused to the PCs (who spent their actions either ducking for cover or moving into better positions), but they still came out victorious.

Yeah, the game is "deadly," but knowing that taking your Wound Threshold does not equal death makes things a bit easier. The games FATE and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying (a Cortex+ game) go into a list of possibilities for defeat, but not death.

I want to say that naked uncle owen and naked boba fett have the same défense, except a short black dice from a défense talent.

Boba Fett almost certainly has several ranks in Adversary , so his defenses are better then Owen Lars: Water Collecting Nudist. Boba also has higher soak, and defensive talents like Dodge add purple and red dice, not black ones.

So assuming a conservative Adversary of only 2, and no use of Dodge or any environmental effects, and assuming that his armor is only heavy battle armor and not something yet to be released, shooting at Boba at medium Range would be...1 Black and 2 Red dice.

And without his Armor, Boba is still looking at 2 Red Dice.

Unless your character has better then Agi 3 and [Weapon skill] 2, you will probably be getting shot more then doing the shooting.

Ok ! I forgot adversary. And boba wasn't a good catch. You convinced me. What about leia vs aunt beru ? (Non combat career)

Ok ! I forgot adversary. And boba wasn't a good catch. You convinced me. What about leia vs aunt beru ? (Non combat career)

We're getting into apples an oranges, but ok...

Assuming Leia in Ep IV...

As a PC or NPC?

As an NPC you'll still see Adversary on Leia and a Nemesis level character, with Beru as (most likely) a minion. (Imperial campaigns are awesome btw)

As a PC, assuming Colonist:Politico, Leia's defenses at medium range, without armor, cover, and other effects will, yes, yield defenses of only 2 purple dice. Assuming she's not wearing armored clothing or a personal shield, which she could be, by probably isn't...

But if you look at what a Colonist: Politico does it still balances, just in different ways. With Wil as a core ability for her class, Leia is also going to generate a high initiative slot so she can opt to get to cover (be it soft cover, hard cover, or total cover) early in combat if she feels it necessary, will have higher strain threshold and so she can take extra maneuvers longer, can use buff and attack talents to boost other players or remove enemies from play even when unarmed. Or she can use her skills to make a Deception check to look like an nonthreatening target, effectively diverting "aggro" onto the Merc, or Bounty Hunter, or Bodyguard. She will also have a better Discipline or Cool score to regain a lot of that strain after combat is over, letting her do it all again. If she really wants a little help, she can flip a destiny point and make one of those purple dice red.

So while Leia is likely to get "hit" more, and more likely to have her WT exceeded, her abilities and role in combat make it kinda like complaining the Wizard has to wear robes to protect his 10 Hitpoints when the Fighter gets full plate to protect his 40 hitpoints.

Or is it the fact that after a dozen adventures worth of XP Leia can still be hit by Stormtroopers that bothers you?

Thanks for your answer. Very interesting. Still, i miss a defense system allowing everyone to get harder to hit as xp grows i think

I like that the game forces you to get tactical with your environment. You can always buy heavy battle armor.

Also, you can get harder to hit as XP grows. Buy in to a specialization with Dodge/Side Step/Defensive Stance/Improved Armor Master. Become Force-Sensitive, buy a small part of the Sense tree and Improved Reactions, and commit Force Dice to it. Buy up Skills and Characteristics so your rolls have a base of 4-5 Upgraded dice, then spend Advantage/Triumph to upgrade opponents' Difficulty dice to Challenge dice or add Setbacks to them.

There. XP translates to defenses. It's the same principle, but not as directly beneficial to defense as the system you miss. The reason I like it is upgraded checks that generate a lot of Advantage and Triumph can be spent to do other cool stuff, not just make you harder to hit. The options are what I enjoy because I don't always want just that flat bonus.

In eleven sessions, we haven't had a single PC death despite having combat in all of them save one. OTOH, we've had starship combat in four sessions, and it's been extremely brutal. The PCs had their first ship trashed, repaired (pactically rebuilt) it, and had it shot to hell again. They're on to a new ship now, but it may not be long-lasting either.

Thanks for your answer. Very interesting. Still, i miss a defense system allowing everyone to get harder to hit as xp grows i think

Artifact of the setting as much as the system.

Lvl 20 rogue runs out of the dungeon with the lich's phyl...fil....horcrux, and finds 40 lvl 1 orcs.....and kills them all, flawless victory. Because he's awesome with his dual scimitars.

Han, a smuggler with 500 or so xp runs out of the bunker and there's 40 stormtroopers waiting, he gives up, because there's freaking 40 of em.

In eleven sessions, we haven't had a single PC death despite having combat in all of them save one. OTOH, we've had starship combat in four sessions, and it's been extremely brutal. The PCs had their first ship trashed, repaired (pactically rebuilt) it, and had it shot to hell again. They're on to a new ship now, but it may not be long-lasting either.

I'm thinking they are mostly referring to exceeding their WT. Not officially dead, I know, but learning to take cover and use those advantages, triumphs, and dest pts to make the narrative and environment work for you can be tough if you are used to systems that just make your character hard to hit automatically.

In warhammer 3 there's a really interesting active defense reaction system (parry, dodge and block), open to everyone with 3 in the relevant characteristic, which can be upgraded as the xp grows (advanced version, then epic version of them). I think it's more open than a defense system from talents which are open only to some specializations from some careers. Here an experienced non combat pc has the same defense than a rookie non combat pc

The other idea, the EOTE author thought about at first, is to make opposed check in combat so it grows higher with xp too. But that would probably be a problem with the Damage system depending on the number of uncancelled successes.

voilà, my 2 cents. I'm just thinking about some adjustment for this, and for the pilot role in space combat

I agree that the main impression is that there is a defense problem but I liked a lot the Han and the 40 troopers scene XD

A higher level char doesn't have a higher "raw" defense value BUT he/she have some nice talents (thanks to more XP) that will help to gain more Def at expenses of Strain like Dodge and other ones.

I need more knowledge about the game and more expansions. I would like to build a 100% pure PC combat oriented character (Kyle Katarn, Bobba or other like that) style chars.

Also I would like to see the next year the Force defensive aptitudes that made powerful Force users almost invincible (I hope that people from FFG don't create a balanced talent tree for Jedi or Pseudo-Jedi). If something/someone is stronger then let it be! Balance is sometimes unfair.