One of my players decided to skip all cards except melee strike and perform stunt. I let him "specialize" a white die in various things for perform stunt as he's the social character. Two action cards. That's it. It can be that simple. It's just one house rule.

There's no requirement that a player use all his stack of things to do. If you have reckless cleave, thunderous blow and that other one, I mean how redundant does one need to be?

jh

I don't want to be harsh, but honestly I didn't enjoy that combat. Sunday we played Deadlands (Savage Worlds) and we had good fight with 11 NPCs, then a smaller fight with 6 enemies and finally a fight with one main boss monster.

Great fights and they took just about an hour total... perhaps less - didn't check, but it felt super fast.

And when as a GM I get the thought, when preparing, that I need to skip a great idea I have because it may end in combat - it feels wrong.

Its definately a balance - To be honest I dont know what to do exactly ... WFRP feels cumbersome especially when you have lots of cards infront of you and when it gets late and you get tired ..., but at the same time I do also enjoy the fidly bits where you can tailor your character and have different attack (descriptions) - I do like the easy of pace with SW but it does also feel bit "light" and almost too random in some ways ...

Personally as a GM I feel myself drawn more towards a more free-form system and just winging it ...but I guess its all one tradeoff vs another...

Yes WFRP is more cumbersome.

SW isn't as random as you may think when you factor in the things you can do to get modifiers to your actions. But yes with exploding dice randomness can produce extreme results.

But look at EotE - there you have a system similar to WFRP and yet, it's almost as fast as SW. I certainly like EotE and I'd like wfrp using that system, since it's very balanced. I'd modify it though. Keep the dice and general system, but instead take a more organic approach to talents instead of the more rigid system of EotE. I'd let careers have perhaps 5 talents where 1-2 would be unique for that career. Then I'd have a pool of basic talents everyone could pick up if meeting certain skill requirements (defences and other similar stuff). I would still create small talent trees, so it would pay off to complete a career for a good talent.

I would base everything off the talents, career abilities and actions of WFRP3.

Currently I am pondering a general conversion system, so it can be done almost on the fly with just the basics in place.

I've begun. Finished my todo list and general conversion overview.

Let's see if I can keep it on a fairly low page count. I will need to rewrite most talents that mentions characteristics and skills though and for completeness I'll include all talents. I'll post the list when I get home and if people see anything I've missed for a conversion, let me know.

It's not going to use talent trees - but instead a career system. A bit less free form than wfrp3, but with room for thinking outside a stereotype career as well.

It will feature a free form magic system, that retains the flavour of the orders. Same with faith.

If you feel that there is something wrong with this game, then tweak it as a house rule.

If you want to play 1st ed or 2nd ed, then play those editions. It is getting annoying seeing so many people complain about this game. If you do not like the game, dont play it.

I log onto the forums to see what people are saying about the game, to see what new rules there are, and if any rules were clarified.... So it frustrates me to see people comparing WFRP to SW. If you want to play SW, then play SW and leave the WFRP forums to WFRP players.

It's kinda like me going over to your house when you have made pasta with meatballs, and during dinner I constantly tell you that you should make it like they do at <insert local Italian place>. It is rude.

I like this game. I've played D&D years ago, when I was about 12-14. I never really liked it because it was too complicated to just play, everything you did, you needed to consult a chart or roll weird sided dice.

This game is so simple to play, even a cave-man can do it. Or a drunk adult.

The Dice are simple to look at and figure out, pair off what cancels each other out and you have your outcome.

The Action cards and Talent cards are nice, you can easily see what you want to use.

The Career system is nice, it is a Career, not a Class. You can go from a Rat-Catcher to a Priest or Wizard if you wanted to.

That being said, if there is something you dont like, then make a house rule about it. For example our GM has house-ruled that only one person can have a given Talent and/or Action card (Unless it is Career specific, like the magic user cards).

He also house-ruled that anytime someone quotes Monte Python, we should increase the party tension.

If you feel that there is something wrong with this game, then tweak it as a house rule.

If you want to play 1st ed or 2nd ed, then play those editions. It is getting annoying seeing so many people complain about this game. If you do not like the game, dont play it.

I log onto the forums to see what people are saying about the game, to see what new rules there are, and if any rules were clarified.... So it frustrates me to see people comparing WFRP to SW. If you want to play SW, then play SW and leave the WFRP forums to WFRP players.

It's kinda like me going over to your house when you have made pasta with meatballs, and during dinner I constantly tell you that you should make it like they do at <insert local Italian place>. It is rude.

I like this game. I've played D&D years ago, when I was about 12-14. I never really liked it because it was too complicated to just play, everything you did, you needed to consult a chart or roll weird sided dice.

This game is so simple to play, even a cave-man can do it. Or a drunk adult.

The Dice are simple to look at and figure out, pair off what cancels each other out and you have your outcome.

The Action cards and Talent cards are nice, you can easily see what you want to use.

The Career system is nice, it is a Career, not a Class. You can go from a Rat-Catcher to a Priest or Wizard if you wanted to.

That being said, if there is something you dont like, then make a house rule about it. For example our GM has house-ruled that only one person can have a given Talent and/or Action card (Unless it is Career specific, like the magic user cards).

He also house-ruled that anytime someone quotes Monte Python, we should increase the party tension.

WFRP v3 is without a doubt the most memorable game I've played. I like it so much. But long combats frustrate me a lot.

Talked with one of my players today and we sort of agreed on that some of our systems have made the game more cumbersome. We use a battle mat for instance. This goes away completely from next session and we go vanilla on the movement and range bands. If I didn't like the system, then I wouldn't bother trying to tweak it.

My only gripe is slow combat. Dice succes balance has been fixed. Working on my conversion the past two days also made me realize that I can't just abandon 3rd ed. Because there is a lot of fluff in the mechanics in the form of actions and talents. I like that.

I've played this since release and have all the stuff and know the system, dice propabilities, interactivity, synergies etc quite well. But I post here because I am used to getting some awesome perspective from other GMs, how they handle it and how they have tweaked bits here and there. Sorry if it ruined your day, but would have thought that the original posters title would have given you a hint as to what to expect :-)

But this exercise of complaining about this game that I like so much and pondering alternate systems and still returning to the conclusion that It has so many merits, does start creative processes that tweak our approach, house rules and ultimately our enjoyment.

My pondering of tweaking the system will continue, but I will most likely keep playing it because in my heart I know it to be awesome. Check my house rules, there may be some stuff that your group finds useable - the fruit of my complaining and pondering :-)

If I didn't like the system, then I wouldn't bother trying to tweak it.

Well put. I think that summarizes my thoughts too

I am not against tweaking the system to suit your play style. I am against complaining about the system wishing it was a different game. It is almost like they are only on here to bash 3rd edition.

I have seen some people go so far as to play 3rd edition fluff with 2nd edition mechanics.... Guess what, you arent playing 3rd edition anymore, you are playing 2nd edition.

When our game is over, I plan on being a GM for a new round of 3rd edition. I will probably be doing freestyle adventures since our group will most likely play all of the published stuff. I have already made my own character sheets to use, and I have made a few characters already.

So yes, I will be tweaking the system to suit my needs. I like this game. I'd like to see it grow and expand further.

The best part of warhammer was the narrative dice system but i agree with the poster that action cards along with the many components, cards and such bogged down a great otherwise narrativly driven game. After playing star wars edge of empire its clear that this is exactly how narrative dice should be supported by the game system.. wfrpg was a good first effort and i did enjoy it far more than anything that had come out in recent years but for me narrative dice are to rpgs what smartphones are to mobile phones. Once you use one there is no going back, i could never again play an rpg without narrative dice.

After reading through the complaints here, it appears FFG agreed with many of them in their release of this narrative system for Star Wars. I own and play both. The Star Wars version is 2.0. No cards at all, just dice and a character sheet. But, of course you have to get a group that likes Star Wars or be ready to create your own fantasy expansion.

I love the action cards (sans basic ones). All the rest were unnecessary and I don't use them. I just write stiff down.

[rant on with sarcasm] Some people really have a hard time understanding that you can do that. I mean, like, pencils have been around for such a long time, and if that's the biggest thing people are worried about is the components, then wth can you do ? {thick sarcasm off}. I'm just imagining people trapped under piles of components saying "I hate this game! I dont' know what to do with all these components! Give me books so I can look all this crap up all the time - round after round- cuz' thats way better!" {no, seriously, sarcasm off this time}

..except that is not what we are saying at all. You highly exaggerated what the typical objection to too many components is. I don't think anyone didn't realize they weren't needed to play. Those books to be used without cards came out a long, long time ago. Even so, did we get books covering all of the expansion cards? You still end up with a huge stockpile of cards that cost a ton of money and a ton of time to transcribe to cheat sheets in order to get rid of them.

It's hard to argue that FFG Warhammer isn't more difficult and less streamlined then FFG Star Wars, if you've played them both.

I don't mean to argue or demean anybody's opinion here, because we're all frustrated right now. SW is getting all the love, but I think people need to pull back the veil and realize that SW an oversimplified version of WFRP and is really kind of blah and didn't create any solutions for WFRP, nor did it create anything new to the game that can't already be done with WFRP.

Back onto the topic of putting out the RULES LITE Players Handbook 2 instead of abandoning this game...

They put out the Player's guide for people who disliked counters, cards and stuff and people still bitched because people are going to complain no matter what and find excuses instead of solutions. Hence, why would they bother to put out a player's guide 2? Although I think it would be a wonderful idea, it seems FFG has abandoned this game. The license is being held hostage, if you will, by a company that has focus elsewhere. We can't blame them of course, because evidently they don't read the forums. They don't give a nurgling turd about the forums. They also don't, and shouldn't, respond if someone fails their spellcheck usage.

Sure, they could fleece us and sell us all this same stuff again. Is that really what people want, rather than find a couple common sense solutions to the overwhelming pile of cards that they dont' know what to do with? Or is the solution, simply a Players Guide 2, that puts it all down on paper again?

I'd advocate a Players Guide 2, rather than scatter this game, and whatever remains of its ignored fans, again with a 4th edition.

..but hence, since they don't read or respond to the forums, we are simply the ignored. It simply doesn't matter here as they are a company that, from a business perspective, brilliantly works from a statistical sales position and not from their gut, or the GUTS put forth by its fans who choose to discuss things on the forums.

This is maybe off topic, but it seems that threads like these are put forth to appeal to FFG like a Grecian lamb burnt offering/sacrifice in hopes that the smoke reaches the heavens..or at least get the fans to join the cause. Then someone comes along and says that we on the forums don't count and we don't deserve to be heard or responded to publicly..that's the WTF moment for me that ticks me right off and forces me to respond. FFG is not a company that can do no wrong. They are not ABOVE the fans. They hold a license, and are holding it hostage.

I'm currently playing Star Wars. I've quickly bored of the same "bonus white die" effect for the same laser shot over and over and over and over and over. YAWN ! Give me some special abilities! All this bitching about "too many components" caused FFG to retreat into the de-evolved game-book again... We're back to the primitive "look **** up" and 6 statistics mentality of characters again. Why no middle ground?

Help, I've fallen under the weight of components because I cannot think outside the RAW and can't get up.

Don't like components?

Use a pencil

Don't use recharge for defenses

Don't use talent socketing

Use a pencil

Don't use any special actions. Just use melee strike and perform a stunt.

Like the rigid talent tree structure of SW? So, make yourself a rigid talent chart.

Don't like that the dice aren't 100% perfectly balanced? use the SW dice.

Want your own Player's Guide 2?

Scan your cards and print them out into a little booklet. DONE!

I'd like to hear more about what people would put into a Player's Handbook 2.

jh

I'm currently playing Star Wars. I've quickly bored of the same "bonus white die" effect for the same laser shot over and over and over and over and over. YAWN ! Give me some special abilities! All this bitching about "too many components" caused FFG to retreat into the de-evolved game-book again... We're back to the primitive "look **** up" and 6 statistics mentality of characters again. Why no middle ground?

See, any complaint I would have against the components isn't the fact that there are cards themselves (if FFG didn't make them I would have). It is the fact that every special action requires its own special set of effects. I actually like the streamlined SW system.

Maybe as a compromise, you have the "lite" system, and can buy success/boon/comet effects in place of actions. A hardened warrior may have a number of options in combat, whereas the social guy has the base set (and reverse for social actions).

I agree. It's not like we can have one for every single skill for every single specialization. Its literally that easy. That's what bugs me. People flip out about cards and components, but you can completely remove them from the game without changing ANYTHING about the game.

Don't want to use the action cards? Well, then just use specializations. One white can be added per rank.

Talent cards: Use a pencil and write it down.

Career sheet and ability card: Not quite sure why they even put these on cards. I've never used these. Write it down.

Fortune point counters. Again, only a mental deficient couldn't use a pencil to track these (just like sw strain)

There is absolutely no excuse for anyone griping about the components unless you have no arms or legs and cannot hold a pencil with your teeth.

jh

If you feel that there is something wrong with this game, then tweak it as a house rule.

If you want to play 1st ed or 2nd ed, then play those editions. It is getting annoying seeing so many people complain about this game. If you do not like the game, dont play it.

I log onto the forums to see what people are saying about the game, to see what new rules there are, and if any rules were clarified.... So it frustrates me to see people comparing WFRP to SW. If you want to play SW, then play SW and leave the WFRP forums to WFRP players.

It's kinda like me going over to your house when you have made pasta with meatballs, and during dinner I constantly tell you that you should make it like they do at <insert local Italian place>. It is rude.

The correct analogy here is not us going to your house for a free meal, but us going to your restaurant and getting terrible service for something that we are paying for.

Unfortunately there is no such thing as an ideal set of rules, as everybody has different perspectiives on it and playing styles. As somebody else has said, if we didn't like the system we wouldn't try to house rule it. Comparing WFRP with another system does not mean that we want to play that other system instead, but rather that WFRP could learn something from it.

3rd edition was FFG taking a brave leap in the dark to try out a narrative dice system with a RPG. No beta test was done and the playtesting was far too limited in scope. This has created far too many problems particularly once PC's get to Rank 3 and above.

Star Wars is their chance at a second shot at getting a narrative system working well, They are also looking at some interesting stuff in the 2nd Edition Dark Heresy as well. These two systems are taking up nearly all the development time, the rest going to the other 40K stuff.

From a business point of view, there isn't a cat in hells chance that once FFG come back to WFRP, that they will carry on with 3rd edition. As I have said before, once they have dealt with SW and 2nd DH, the license for WFRP will be due for renewal again. What happens then is anybodys guess.

As to the argument between rule books and cards and their relative merits, I think we are not making the best use of technology. I play Pathfinder and rather than carting around a heavy pile of books for just one PC, I have created a cheat sheet with all the necessary rules on it. If you have PDF's of the books, it is a simple matter of copy and paste onto a Word file that is printed off. In future i would like to see firms like FFG and Paizo create customisable character sheets that can be put together from online resources. Cards, talents, whatever, could be placed on the character sheet and then printed off. These could be free or useable for a nominal fee. Simple!

RAS

Don't want to use the action cards? Well, then just use specializations. One white can be added per rank.

Talent cards: Use a pencil and write it down.

Career sheet and ability card: Not quite sure why they even put these on cards. I've never used these. Write it down.

Fortune point counters. Again, only a mental deficient couldn't use a pencil to track these (just like sw strain)

There is absolutely no excuse for anyone griping about the components unless you have no arms or legs and cannot hold a pencil with your teeth.

jh

Not playing with cards implies that you have to start house ruling other things. What do you do with the advancements listed on the career cards under Action, the delay symbol of the green dice looses some of its in-game effect, and you have to create some kind of lists like in EotE in order to give some flavour to the comets, banes, boons and chaos stars.

I mean, you can do it, you can play without cards, but it is by no means an easy job. Action cards and the recharge mechanics are heavily rooted to the game mechanics.

Yes. The recharge bit is affected, but if a person wants to do it its not impossible. Add a black die to the next check. That's it if you just want a boring modifier..or just have a delay. It doesn't really matter.

Without ending up playing a sci fi game, when you really want to be playign WFRP, thats what you've got to figure out. I just get tired of seeing all these helpless-sounding excuses.

..

didn't we just have this conversation? seriously, the 5 of you that hate this game are relentless. i hope this place gets cleaned up before the reprints. the new folks coming on board deserve a better forum.

didn't we just have this conversation? seriously, the 5 of you that hate this game are relentless. i hope this place gets cleaned up before the reprints. the new folks coming on board deserve a better forum.

I would be interested to know which five you mean. Mostly I see people who are frustrated by FFG doing little or nothing with the WFRP license and who ARE trying to do something about some of the problems with a system that they still enjoy playing. The final part of your comment would go down extremely well at the moment with the communist party in China, where I believe they are clamping down heavily on any kind of dissent or internal criticism. Be careful what you wish for!

I for one don't hate wfrp - we just started playing TEW and we enjoy it. I do however recognize issues with the game, having played regularly since release. I think we have about 400 hours of gameplay with wfrp.

Gallows, I see you make statements throughout this thread about how long the fights are... but not just in terms of time, but in terms of turns. You mention how long a 10-round fight takes... and that makes me suspect that you must have house-rules in play that are causing those fights to last 10 rounds. Are you perchance setting Defenses at higher than the RAW would indicate? In other posts in this thread, you say you like how a Savage Worlds character can be taken out in one or two hits. If that's not happening in your campaign, it's probably because of your house rules.

I'm looking at one of your old house rules documents right now (I downloaded it ages ago), and I think I've found the problem. Not sure if it reflects how you're playing these days, but once upon a time anyway you had house rules that seriously reduced the numbers of good dice PC's could roll, increased the numbers of black dice they'd be rolling, and also included a house-rule that said "Chaos star = chaos star + 2 challenges + roll one extra challenge die".

With all that in play, I imagine attacks don't hit very often, and that's what's leading to the really long fights.

WFRP3e as written has such a high hit %, and such low Wound thresholds, that it's really unlikely fights will go to 10 rounds. I have yet to see a fight that went 4 full rounds. With the exception of Ironbreakers, a PC goes down to the 2nd or 3rd hit (which means the 2nd to 4th attack rolled against them). A really "big" fight in WFRP usually follows a pattern of 2 rounds then rally step followed by 1 or 2 more rounds. If you throw in more bad guys then the PCs can reliably kill in that time frame, you end up with a really high rate of PC death. Pretty much if the bad guys aren't all dead or fleeing by the middle of the 3rd round, it's gonna be a TPK. At least that's my experience.

It seems to me that the design paradigm of WFRP3e is basically "we can afford to make each die roll take longer via narrative effects, because each scene is short and uses relatively few die rolls". If you're lowering the success rates, that means the fight scenes take more turns, and thus more rolls, which means more time. Knock your difficulties back down to what the rulebook suggests, and you'll have much faster-paced fights.