Begs the question then. Why did FFG release a GM screen if the general consensus (which I agree with) is that the mechanic lends itself to total open dice rolling?

Begs the question then. Why did FFG release a GM screen if the general consensus (which I agree with) is that the mechanic lends itself to total open dice rolling?

So gms have a quick reference guide, something to hide the actual adventure details, and of course there is a demand for them that allows them to turn a profit.

Agreed, I think you really need the players to 'buy in' to the narrative concept in a game like this. I am very fortunate to have a group that trusts me and works with me, even when we disagree.

Everyone needs to be on the same page, making the story better. Mostly, that means open rolls. Let's consign 'TPK's and 'throwing disposable characters into a meat grinder' to the RPG dustbin.

There is an equivalent to a passive roll in the game, an opposed check. In the case of the assassin, the GM should be rolling an opposed skill check for the assassin stealth vs perception (most likely the highest perception in group, possibly with added setback die due to assistance, because there is more than one player). Since this roll is made by the assassin NPC, it is rolled by the GM without the need to tell the players.

This actually raises a good question. I think it's legitimate in this situation to either have the PC roll perception opposed by the assassin's stealth, or the GM rolls the assassin's stealth opposed by the PC's perception. Which approach would you take? Does the book give any recommendations? On one hand, I like to leave it for the 'active' skill to do the roll (in this case, stealth), on the other hand, I also prefer to let the PCs roll when their skills are involved. So I tend to waffle a bit back and forth on the matter.

Besides just being an issue of preference, it also matters because the two options are not statistically equivalent.

Begs the question then. Why did FFG release a GM screen if the general consensus (which I agree with) is that the mechanic lends itself to total open dice rolling?

There are things a GM wants to keep hidden besides dice rolls. Notes, health left on enemies, maps, ect.

Begs the question then. Why did FFG release a GM screen if the general consensus (which I agree with) is that the mechanic lends itself to total open dice rolling?

EDIT: Superfluous repetition of previous points. Where is the delete function?!

This actually raises a good question. I think it's legitimate in this situation to either have the PC roll perception opposed by the assassin's stealth, or the GM rolls the assassin's stealth opposed by the PC's perception. Which approach would you take? Does the book give any recommendations? On one hand, I like to leave it for the 'active' skill to do the roll (in this case, stealth), on the other hand, I also prefer to let the PCs roll when their skills are involved. So I tend to waffle a bit back and forth on the matter.

Besides just being an issue of preference, it also matters because the two options are not statistically equivalent.

You're right, they are not statistically equivalent, because positive dice are slightly favoured. I'm ABF but I believe it was either in the book, or in an Order 66 interview with one of the designers, that it was suggested that the player always roll in these cases. Partly because of the statistical element, but mostly because a) it keeps them engaged, and b) then they get to interpret the narrative dice. If the GM rolls, that player input is lost. So I always let the player roll.

Begs the question then. Why did FFG release a GM screen if the general consensus (which I agree with) is that the mechanic lends itself to total open dice rolling?

Because people will (and did) buy it.

Make another with the Skills charts on it and I'll buy that one too.

Make another with the Skills charts on it and I'll buy that one too.

I find myself using the beginners adventure rulebook for that, that one had a nice list of skills and governing attribute on the back.

I sometimes roll difficulty dice when PCs are looking for a trap, a specific object in a room, etc. Perception rolls you know.

No need.

I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned it, but keep the rolls in the open... but if perception checks are something that you're concerned about metagaming with, I'd simply up the amount of perception checks made... so that they oddly will trust it less. A failed perception check that generates threat might have them think they hear something, but the threat itself might be the stress/strain of worried that something might be coming, even if it isn't. Advantage generated with a failed perception threat, might provide them with a place to hide... but if they are wanting to get someplace in a hurry, it's going to slow them down.

Also a failed perception check might have them suddenly duck and hide, waiting to see if they heard what they thought they heard. Again, they might roll again, but like a failed Astrogation check, it might just slow them down.

Despair on the other hand... means that life is going to suck very soon.

"Borning conversation anyway... Luke, we're going to have company!!" <-- Despair in action.

I'm ok either way, I think... and, quite honestly, I don't know how my GM does it.

Considering the number of rolls I do make, I'm ok with it if the GM is making a few rolls secretly. As a player, helping to tell the story is a lot of fun... but being kept in suspense is a lot of fun, too.

In a good game, players and GM's cooperate to recreate beautiful and epic scenes.

I use to make "phantom rolls" (and my player knows it XD) because he knows that we are creating a story, and sometimes we have to go even far aways from the rules limitations.

So, I don't care if a GM want to roll for me, or even don't roll, just say what happens if the scene deserves it

In one of the pre made adventures it has an npc make a skilled check against the highest pcs perception.I will try and look through to find which one.

Edit found it , to avoid spoilers -Beyond the Rim page 18 an NPC makes an opposed stealth check against highest PCs perception. To me this would potentially be made as a hidden roll, since if the NPC is successfu then the PCs were unaware of the NPCs presence. The way I would rule it would be whoever is the active party should make the roll. IE an NPC hiding, GM makes the roll. A PC actively looking for something hidden by an NPC, the player makes the roll.

On the topic of perception checks, I'm wondering how you guys deal with PC Perception checks? Suppose the players are walking into an ambush, or searching a room for a clue and you call for a Perception check. Do you let every player roll their perception individually? Or have the players make a single perception check (using the assist rules)?

I have always kinda hated the classic "everyone rolls perception" because it's so random and with four or five rolls, someone is bound to roll max, so I'm inclined to have a "group perception" check, comprised of the highest skill and characteristic in the group and let them roll that in group situations.

But I'm not sure what the best approach would be.

Unless its something PRETTY critical I only consider characters Perception skill without rolling anything. If someone has an average or mostly good Perception, I just consider that he/she is aware of something (more Perception, more details I give to him/her).

About group rolls I just make the character with the higher Perception rolls, and if the group are friends or cooperate, I let them to the typical scene that "Wait! Have you heard that?!" Awaring each player, and from this point, players can voluntarelly roll or I simply give them some info based on its skill level.

If the group doesn't cooperate between them (Yeah XD) I use to make separate rolls or depending what kind of players I just tell them about what they see. Some players don't like that GM let the "scene flow" and always want to roll.

In this case, if someone that only want to care about himself/herself probably won't tell the other players about the danger... leaving place to a funny-traitorous scene XD

Assisted rolls as per rules use the highest skill with the highest stat or use someones skill with an added bonus die.

On the topic of perception checks, I'm wondering how you guys deal with PC Perception checks? Suppose the players are walking into an ambush, or searching a room for a clue and you call for a Perception check. Do you let every player roll their perception individually? Or have the players make a single perception check (using the assist rules)?

You're right, if everyone rolls, someone is bound to succeed. I usually have the group roll once, the character with the highest skill rolling. If it makes sense--say one character has infrared goggles or some kind of scanner--then others can help with an assist.

If the group is somewhat scattered, each character looking at a different thing (for potentially a different clue), then I'll allow multiple rolls.

On the topic of perception checks, I'm wondering how you guys deal with PC Perception checks? Suppose the players are walking into an ambush, or searching a room for a clue and you call for a Perception check. Do you let every player roll their perception individually? Or have the players make a single perception check (using the assist rules)?

You're right, if everyone rolls, someone is bound to succeed. I usually have the group roll once, the character with the highest skill rolling. If it makes sense--say one character has infrared goggles or some kind of scanner--then others can help with an assist.

If the group is somewhat scattered, each character looking at a different thing (for potentially a different clue), then I'll allow multiple rolls.

This.

Ideally, if you let the entire group roll, you run across those situations where (in d20 terms) the guy with +20 rolls a 1, and the guy with +5 rolls a 20. So the end result is the guy with the worst perception in the group sees the thing where as the most perceptive character in the group was too busy cleaning dirt from his fingernails. Those never made any story sense to me. Like whafrog says, if someone has something that can help the person with the highest perception then a bonus dice is applicable here. Or if everyone is split up/spread out and looking for different things, then I'll allow multiple rolls.

Otherwise, one group, one roll.

In regards to Perception checks (and other checks) I've told my players that in many situations (the more mundane anyways) they can decide if they roll or not. If they don't roll they get a "standard success" and nothing more (you repair the thing and it takes an hour or you hear something) if they decide to roll they take the risk of rolling poorly (Threats and Dispair) for the reward of bonuses and really great successes.

This on top of the notion of only rolling when it adds to the story or there is a mechanical reason to do so.

Edit: also this thread has made me decide to roll everything in the open, including that opposed check from Beyond the Rim, if they want (I will ask them).

On the topic of perception checks, I'm wondering how you guys deal with PC Perception checks?

You have a few options:

• Roll for the highest skill level for the group
• Have each player roll and maybe require a set number of successes
• One player rolls and you add a boost or two if other assist

I am not too sure you have to stick to any set way, if it makes sense to resolve the perception roll one way as the narrative dictates it may well be the next check goes another way.

These responses are pretty good. Thanks for all the input. I think I'm going to go with on most occasions that are similar to what I referenced, I will let the players roll the good dice, and I'll roll the difficulty dice. I may or may not tell them the difficulty (I'm leaning towards not) to give some added suspense.

These responses are pretty good. Thanks for all the input. I think I'm going to go with on most occasions that are similar to what I referenced, I will let the players roll the good dice, and I'll roll the difficulty dice. I may or may not tell them the difficulty (I'm leaning towards not) to give some added suspense.

Did you ask your players what they think is the best option?