Let's be generous and give the storm trooper 5 TB. ST Carapace is AP 6 if I recall correctly. A lasgun on overload is 1d10+5, pen 2, leaving our storm trooper with 9 damage reduction (5+6-2). A roll of 5-10 on a d10 will inflict damage. That's a 60% chance of dealing damage with a basic lasgun.

I think this raises an exilent point about how the rules need to lead to the outcome they should. When TB + storm trooper armour means a las gun can't hurt you you're not playing in what I feel is 40K.

Granted this is using the new and improved OW rules. Under vanilla DH, lasguns deal 1d10+3, pen 0, leaving the storm trooper with 11 damage reduction. A roll of 9 or 10 will still inflict damage. That's 20%. Not great, but possible. If you roll a 10 under vanilla DH, you stand a good chance of dealing a heck of a lot more damage thanks to exploding Righteous Fury that was neutered significantly in OW. You can also fire on semi-auto, which increases your chances of hitting with more shots, increasing your chances of dealing damage by an amount I'm not sure how to calculate.

I'll give you the math of the game could use a rework, but let's at least use actual math to back it up and not falsely claim that a lasgun cannot wound a storm trooper.

Also lol at 'exilent' and 'difference for its own sake'.

OK so I need best Carapace or that + 5 from homeworld to make it true but you get the point.

I shall clarify for sanitys sakes!

I think we could easily get away with Three Crit tables, Head, Torso, Limb.

Then on each table you can have interchangeable terms for which ever damage type was appropriate and off you go.

Three tables on one page, instead of 16 tables over 8 pages, streamline the effect text and voila you have a sheet you can keep on one page handy for the GM.

Also I cannot express how disappointed I was with DW having the same crit charts as standard humans, half the effects have no effects on Space Marines, I mean would it have been so hard to push the boat out here and do something new?

My Idea for our group was to involve Power Armour on crit damage charts, a 50/50 split between damage to the Armour, and Damage to the Marine, things like bust servos in an arm or leg for example, or a fused and melted limb that no longer works properly..makes sense no? a Marine is as much his Armour as he is himself. This way the Techmarine gets to fix armour on a regular basis, like they are supposed to be doing, and the Medic gets to minister to the geneflesh.

Yes I could give everyone Hell or Bolt weapons but that just means I have to pick between rich underhive gangs or ping combat (one breaks immersion the other is dull for players).

Yeah ...

Roll a Techpriest, max out Toughness, get Flesh is Weak and Unnatural Toughness plus Dragonscale Armour. Laugh in the face of plasma cannon and multimelta teams as the enemy frantically tries to burn through your 32 points of soak. gg?

But really, even without such abysmal minmaxing examples ... it's kind of sad to see how much shots you'd need with a lasgun to actually incapacitate a carapace-armoured Acolyte. I mean, consider that you won't always roll high numbers. I think the weapons just lose a lot of their deadly feeling this way. Which in turn just makes the game feel less ... dangerous? Less grimdark? Less epic?

So what do we do about combat? I don't want it to break immersion you don't want it to slow the game down and Balenorn (and others) wants rid of the crit table.

I think I would favor a TB damage "Step" system but I've never played Inquisitor so I might not like it in play and we still have the table. We could half TB for arms legs and head so it's less useful. The strait to table thing from the beta was not over popular and can break immersion with odd results. Last that I can think of is hitpoints like we have. Whatever wound system used needs to alow for the big stuff as well and as it's late I'm going to post and hope this makes sense.

Well, the table in Inquisitor is just 4-5 steps instead of 10+, so it seemed like a neat compromise. It kind of works like the "straight to table" from the Beta, yet considering that it puts TB soak in-between Crit levels rather than before, there exists a sort of cushioning that makes sure that only properly harmful weapons push over multiple injury levels. With lesser weapons, it will either appear as only a small wound, or an existing wound having been made worse. It is, of course, left to the GM to come up with a good narrative description; this is the downside of the Inquisitor table, it has been left intentionally open specifically because it's supposed to cover multiple scenarios.

And I must apologise for having become so obsessive about pointing to that damage model, but I guess I've just come to think of it as a good solution. However, it's by far from the only option we have, of course. TB only providing half the resilience against anything but Primitive Weapons was another idea that I liked. Or we simply do away with it entirely and just give people a couple more hitpoints. The latter would be the easiest solution, though also the least elegant, I think. Surely, there must be room for something more clever?

My Idea for our group was to involve Power Armour on crit damage charts, a 50/50 split between damage to the Armour, and Damage to the Marine, things like bust servos in an arm or leg for example, or a fused and melted limb that no longer works properly..makes sense no? a Marine is as much his Armour as he is himself. This way the Techmarine gets to fix armour on a regular basis, like they are supposed to be doing, and the Medic gets to minister to the geneflesh.

Sounds like a lot more bookkeeping... Still, I think it's a good idea. It would have fit to that game's narrative focus, and would give the Techmarine something more to do.

Well, at least the backpack unit has its own critical table for attacks on the character's back. It was a start.

I'm not sure it would be that much more book keeping, once you hit the crit tables everything is something to track, this way 5 of them affect your armour and give you a penalty and 5 affect you and give you a penalty.

It worked pretty well in my groups game, made the marines seem much more marine like strangely enough.

True enough.

Truth be told, I'd like to see some sort of armour damage in general, for any sort of armour. I'm just not sure what the best way would be to implement it, from my own subjective preferences. So many different ideas.

At the same time, I'd like to see the system streamlined, made faster and easier to learn.

Kind of contradictory, I guess.

Though I'm sure there's a compromise hidden somewhere. The Best of Both Worlds, so to say.

You could probably work armour damage in using the item status system. Just include actual effects for armour that gets degraded in quality, and add more opportunities for it to happen other than power weapons getting involved.

Actually, no, I don't get the point. I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean.

I meant that with a 2d10 roll of 15+ a home world that +5 to toughness and best craftsmanship armor a maxed out toughness gives you a soak of 13. It's not something you can get every time you make a character and will need you to sink some thrones and xp into it but it can happen.

On a less optimized note that soak 9 character (let's say 10 wounds) can still play like like RoboCop. The bullet types and only war lasgun settings help but in DH only the bullet types existed.

I think this has wasted enough time and Lynata's posted the end point if we keep going so let's agree that OW doesn't have this problem.

Whether TB sticks around or not, it's ridiculous to think that a high TB and good armor can make many enemy weapons including grenades completely useless! It's unreasonable to think that every enemy at this point runs around with bolters just so a GM can score some damage.

I hoping that everyone can at least see that this is a problem and acknowledge that something needs to change. What that might be is what we need to be talking about.

To be honest, i'm astonished that the developers didn't catch this problem in the testing because it's blatantly obvious. Well, at least it was for the group that I run.

Whether TB sticks around or not, it's ridiculous to think that a high TB and good armor can make many enemy weapons including grenades completely useless! It's unreasonable to think that every enemy at this point runs around with bolters just so a GM can score some damage.

I can't see how this could be a problem. If you are good enough to tank the weak weapons, then you have every right to do it. The GM can give some common sense to the weak opponents and make them run away or not engage with the character. This can produce all sorts of awkward side-effects that can make an adventure interesting.

I don't think any un-augmented human should ever be 'good enough to tank the weak weapons', though. "Weak" is very relative here. Despite the running joke of lasguns being flashlights, most fluff sources place their power anywhere between modern assault rifle to limb removing death ray. Anywhere on that scale is going to injure a human to at least a moderate extent, unless they're in full power armour or something.

I don't think the system was and certainly the fluff wasn't intended to give the impression that an Arbite in carapace armor with a TB of 4 could tank like a Space Marine. Removing the danger within the setting is no fun especially if a couple dozen gangers don't have any guns that could hurt a character. It seems awfully broken to me.

I don't think the system was and certainly the fluff wasn't intended to give the impression that an Arbite in carapace armor with a TB of 4 could tank like a Space Marine. Removing the danger within the setting is no fun especially if a couple dozen gangers don't have any guns that could hurt a character. It seems awfully broken to me.

So? If the gangers are stupid enough to engage the character then they deserve to die without a chance. It is just Darwin's Law applied to the Warhammer 40k setting.

Despite the running joke of lasguns being flashlights, most fluff sources place their power anywhere between modern assault rifle to limb removing death ray. Anywhere on that scale is going to injure a human to at least a moderate extent, unless they're in full power armour or something.

Why should they have power armor to do that? Flak armor is perfectly capable to negate lasgun/autogun shots completely. Maybe you see it as a "wet WC paper shirt" but then, lasguns are not "flashlights" either, right ?

How does that make any sense though. Guardsmen use flak armor and die by the 100's of millions to similar arms fire.

On table top a power armored space marine can be killed by a lasgun or grenade I for one would like it if the rules could suport what should be the outcome in the setting.

I'd argue the tabletop is a poor metric to judge things by, considering there's actually some requirement to balance it as a wargame, rather than as a faithful adaptation of the fluff.

This creates a problem for GMs. The PCs eventually develop a lack of fear and a feeling of invincibility which completely takes away from the whole purpose of the 40k setting. At this point they know that there will only be a small group of enemies that have any chance of taking them out. The only weapons that have a chance of doing any damage at all are launchers, flamers, bolters, meltas, and plasma. I can't image very many enemies carrying these around.

Another problem this presents for GMs is that players would rather play characters that can tank due to enhanced survivability rather that other classes. It completely unbalances the classes.

How does that make any sense though. Guardsmen use flak armor and die by the 100's of millions to similar arms fire.

If they shoot them long enough, then they will die of course. Flak armor doesn't make you invulnerable against small arms fire, but it should give you a comfortable amount of protection because it was made to do it. say, you should have 30-40% chance to suffer a few (max 4-5) wounds.

The only weapons that have a chance of doing any damage at all are launchers, flamers, bolters, meltas, and plasma. I can't image very many enemies carrying these around.

Why not? Flamers and launchers are common weapons available for anyone.

And again, combat is not scripted. The enemy is not forced to engage the characters: they can just GG out an run away. In a similar manner how PCs can do the same when they encounter some Big Bad Guy they can't hurt.

Arms fire doesn't wear down flak armor. A high TB and carapace armor literally makes character invincible to small arms fire in DH 1.0

There should be a way to make all weapons relevant all of the time. D&D does this nicely despite using a different system. What's the purpose of having the weapons around if you can't use them halfway through the ranks? They not only become obsolete for bad guys but also for the characters most of the time.

Why should they have power armor to do that? Flak armor is perfectly capable to negate lasgun/autogun shots completely. Maybe you see it as a "wet WC paper shirt" but then, lasguns are not "flashlights" either, right ?

Flak isn't so bad. The grimdark "truth" is that it's just not good enough for the terrible weaponry fielded on the battlefields of the 41st millennium. And neither is power armour.

I'd argue the tabletop is a poor metric to judge things by, considering there's actually some requirement to balance it as a wargame, rather than as a faithful adaptation of the fluff.

Then I would argue that said balanced wargame came before the fluff, as the fluff was written to accompany and wrap around the rules.

The problem is, of course, that after 20 years of allowing deviant interpretations of the setting, we have a gazillion different versions of the fluff, so it comes down to personal preferences. I do not see anything wrong with GW's balanced ruleset or GW's own fluff, though, so what exactly is the reason to be different again? What does this RPG actually gain from that? What is the advantage of intentionally avoiding balance?

Arms fire doesn't wear down flak armor. A high TB and carapace armor literally makes character invincible to small arms fire in DH 1.0

There should be a way to make all weapons relevant all of the time. D&D does this nicely despite using a different system. What's the purpose of having the weapons around if you can't use them halfway through the ranks? They not only become obsolete for bad guys but also for the characters most of the time.

It doesn't need to. Over time, the chance to cause wounds adds up and even more later, the wounds add up to do something nasty with the character. And carapace armor was made to offer the same protection against dedicated anti-infantry weapons (like boltguns) than falk does against small arms. Of course it will make a mockery out of small arms fire! But if you want to bring down a carapace armored guy with a simple autogun, then maybe you are stupid enough to die.

And yeah, weapons have their life cycles. It is not a bad thing IMHO. Sometimes, an inferior weapon should be just like that... inferior. Gear up, and you won't have this problem!

Over time, the chance to cause wounds adds up and even more later, the wounds add up to do something nasty with the character.

Sure, with Righteous Fury even a rock becomes a potentially dangerous weapon.

At the end of the day, are we really okay with all those laser guns and missile launchers and whatnot taking dozens or more shots until the character is even bothered by them? Matter of taste, but to me it just feels odd. Both from a perspective of narrative realism, as well as the very theme and spirit of 40k as a setting.

How many armour-piercing miniature missiles need to explode in your head until you start bleeding again?

At the end of the day, are we really okay with all those laser guns and missile launchers and whatnot taking dozens or more shots until the character is even bothered by them?

Depends. A frag missile/lasgun should do relatively low damage to an armored target. Especially if the target wears armor that was specifically designed to counter frag missiles/lasguns. Krak missiles/lascannons on the other hand...

So it should be a food chain of weapons/armors: you have the small arms that can kill soft targets easily but mostly useless against the anti-small arms armors that in turn are useless against the anti-infantry weapons that can barely scratch the anti-anti-infantry armors and so on.

And I'm just talking in relation of armor. So in my book, you need exactly one armor-piercing miniature missile in your head to die . Your goal should be to negate that missile with your anti-missile helmet .

It's feasible to start with a 40 Toughness if the maximum is rolled at Rank 1 and if wearing Guard Flak Armor we now have a total soak of 8.

Lets go through the list of weapons that this makes irrelevant. For this example i'm going to grab the least damaging weapon and heaviest damaging weapon without Pen. This example is also going to assume that maximum damage was rolled.

Least damaging guns:

Laspistol 1d10+2 = 4 possible damage after TB + AP

Las Carbine

Autopistol

Most damaging guns without Pen:

Shotgun 1d10+4 = 6 possible damage

The average ranges from 7 to 9 total damage. Only those weapons with Pen or 1d10+4 or above are worth packing around. This essentially makes all of these weapons virtually worthless to use potentially from Rank 1:

Laspistol

Las Carbine

Lasgun

Autopistol

Stub Revolver

Stub Automatic

Autogun

Hunting Rifle

All primitive ballistic and melee weapons

Potentially needle weapons

Chainswords

Maybe even shock weapons

Chainswords have Penetration (2 or SB, depending on the system).