The plan was for them to realize they were losing and have to resort to some nasty alternative strategies. There were 120 savage orcs, mostly with melee weapons, but some salvaged grenades and guns.

The party is at the end of a massive descent shaft (2km long hallway of stone about 10m wide and high). At the end of the shaft is a stone wall with a single doorway. They're on the other side of the doorway, in a tomb.

Setup : They lined up the 3 gunners at the back of the room (medic, operator, heavy) behind cover and put the commissar and priest on either side of the doorway (inside) with their chainswords. The Operator rigged 5 salvaged las carbines to short circuit and eventually explode in the hallway (basically unreliable timed grenades).

I saw that they were determined and not looking for alternatives. I decided we needed an ork counter. I set it to 120. I didn't handle combat with individual attacks, but rather in waves.

Wave 1 : The orks start to close the distance, so a long time of the three gunners opening fire with no distractions. Each player got a BS+60 test with kills-per-degree appropriate to their weapons. The heavy alone killed 30 orks. I was starting to sweat.

Wave 2 : Orks reach the wall. Similar to the previous round but less time so fewer kills. A grenade was thrown at the party. The Priest picked it up to throw back, but botched his agility test. 8 critical explosive damage to the arm. The arm was destroyed, and he would have been dead but for burning a fate point.

Before wave 3 the medic got the priest back on his feet with all the stim and drugs they had. In his drug and fury addled haze he took up his chain-sword in the off-hand and resumed his post (with substantial penalties).

Wave 3 : Orks charge through the doorway. The commissar/priest had to kill them as quickly as possible in order to maximize the amount of time the rear gunners could spend shooting. They killed the orks very fast and the rear gunners killed a lot of orks. One of the Operator's traps takes out about 5 orks. The ork counter is at about 55.

Wave 4 : Same as wave 3, but more orks coming in the door. The **** priest is just using "All Out Attack" to make up for being basically dead. So he can't parry, but it never mattered because he either killed the orks or they missed. He rolled righteous fury about 3 times throughout the battle which gave the players extra fate points. The door guards take a long time, so the rear gunners kill fewer orks. None of the operator's traps detonate. A grenade lands in the back of the room next to the group's grenade/ammo stash, but the operator kicks it away.

Wave 5 : As wave 4, but a Weirdboy blows open the player's left wall and more orks break through. The commissar and priest are both starting to get overwhelmed and one of the gunners elects to focus on keeping orks off of them rather than shooting into the mass (fewer kills, but probably saved the mission). Commisar is badly wounded and the priest still won't die for some reason (he's been at critical damage 8 this whole time). None of the operator's traps explode.

Wave 6 : More orks charge through and the commissar and priest are in dire straights. I think commissar ends the battle with 2 points of critical damage on him and his chainsword is practically jammed-full of ork guts. There's practically no shooting into the hallway from the rear gunners this turn as they're stuck assisting the melee. Luckily about 3 of the operator's traps go off and take about a dozen greenskins down. The weirdboy blasts a few party members with psychic force. At the end of this the ork counter is at 6.

Ending Sequence : They heavy essentially turns the weirdboy and the last few orks into red mist. The commissar moves to step into the hallway, but the operator holds him back. The operator's 5th trap explodes harming no one, and THEN the commissar steps into the hallway.

Anyways, it was great because everyone literally saved the entire party at least once. That Ministorum priest is still recovering from his injuries, but he's going to end up decorated and getting a bad-ass bionic arm.

Since the players took my plan for the adventure and threw it out the window, blew everything up and killed over 100 orks, I had to reward them with XP and fate points.

Some questions:

- Which rules did you use to manage the combat? Formations? Hordes from other gamelines? Or you simply made the 5 players fight 10 single orks every time?

- Did the orks get Critical Damage or when they had no wounds left they simply died? I say this because Orks have True Grit, which is what makes them NASTY.

I find it's quite unbelievable what you just told us. In close combat, a savage ork whould totally crush unexperienced PCs. You may survive the first two rounds, but after that you are dead!!

If you play Orks without True Grit, they are not appreciably tougher than Guardsmen and are not Orks.

BTW if you were using Horde rules, 1 Magnitude is not 1 individual. I set 1 Ork = to 4 Magnitude myself, since that roughly evens out with the amount of damage required to kill an Ork if you are talking lasguns (or anything below lascannon level). 120 Magnitude would be about 30 Orks IMO.

Yeah. I see that that is what happened. Assuming the description is accurate (basically grenades), the operator's trap could not have killed 5 Orks, or even 1 Ork, assuming we are talking frag grenade damage. It normally takes a heavy bolter a minimum of 2 hits, usually 3, to kill an Ork Boy.

Something screwy is going on with the rules here.

Well, we definitely haven't been playing true grit. ****, as far as I can tell this essentially makes orks immune to being killed with handheld weaponry when you're not getting righteous fury. Makes it seem like our players should have lost every battle we've ever had against these things because nothing except krak grenades or the heavy gunner can even damage them.

Edit : do mook orks really reduce all damage by 12 when at 0 remaining wounds?

Edit : do mook orks really reduce all damage by 12 when at 0 remaining wounds?

Yes.

They are not (that) hard to get to Crits, but once they are there they take a lot of damage, getting knocked around, having bits blown off, but still fighting. True Grit represents Orky toughness well. (works well for zombies too.) In the game I'm GMing, one runtherd got hit by a heavy stubber three times, a lasgun twice, was shot through the guts with a long las, and hit by a flamer. Finally he collapsed when the flame Fatigue exceeded his TB. He didn't die though.

Moreover, since they have Hardy, they'll be up and ready for more fightin', fully healed, within a couple of days.

Note that at the Crit level they have a soak of 12, but 6 of that will let 1 point of damage through, so what you wind up doing is blow them apart slowly.

If I remember my calcs correctly, an Ork Boy should take about 10 shots on average from an overloaded lasgun to put down.

Honestly what you want to do is flame them and then stand back, because their willpower and agility are too low for them to put it out/do anything (unless you allow Mob Rule to apply to it).

It will take a long time for the fire to kill them though.

Alternatively, use X or R type weapons that can get them through Blood Loss eventually through a relatively minor critical. You really don't want to do it in melee though.

Ah, so if you do 7 damage you're guaranteed to wound them. Grenades do even less than I thought they did. We need to convince our melee characters to take this trait.

I thought this was supposed to be a gritty, dark game where the slightest thing could kill you, but it seems fairly easy to build a character that can just soak bullets and choppas with indifference. Am I wrong on this?

Ah, so if you do 7 damage you're guaranteed to wound them. Grenades do even less than I thought they did. We need to convince our melee characters to take this trait.

I thought this was supposed to be a gritty, dark game where the slightest thing could kill you, but it seems fairly easy to build a character that can just soak bullets and choppas with indifference. Am I wrong on this?

It is possible to get a human up to Ork levels of resistance, but it costs a lot of XP (if your starting Toughness is 40, ir takes 4 stats increases to bring it up to Ork Boy level). Less if it's an Ogryn. But those are after all Ogryns.

Massed fire or heavy weapons will still kill them though.

Note, importantly, that True Grit does NOT reduce Critical Damage from Righteous Fury. So these characters still have to worry about Blood Loss though.

No character, ever, except maybe an Ogryn, should ever engage Orks in melee if they can help it.

That is, it is possible for a "peak human" to reach the level of resilience of a standard, run of the mill, Ork.

Nobs on the other hand... an Ork Nob has a damage soak of 18 once it's in Crits.

EDIT: Don't forget about Iron Jaw either. That's important because they'll be taking a lot of different Crits with Stunning effects before they finally go down.

EDIT2: Felling will help eliminate their Unnatural Toughness (which also works on True Grit) and will make them go down faster. A long las with a good damage roll can do it in a couple of hits.

Orks laugh at frag grenades, which hit them always in the body (if I remember Blast right?) and what little armour they have is located there, which is flak so the AP goes up to 3.

Just for the small point of complaint, I really hope, and doubt, that the Eldar are as hard to HIT as Orks are to HURT, because otherwise, it seems that the Orks are the biggest, badassest thing in the area, and the battles against the SDs and Dark Eldar are just little distractions, so the Orks can have some time to pick a new Boss, after THEY kill the current one. Orks live for years (a few do, anyway), Eldar for centuries, and it isn't all just by dodging every altercation. Is there stuff of a similar effect for them to avoid hits, since Eldar are notoriously fragile, being Elves, and thus made of glass?

Sorry to gripe, but I've never been a big Ork fan in table-top, and while I don't particularly like Dark Eldar, I love Craftworld Eldar (they are simply far too tactics-heavy/specialized for me to be any good with), and it would be sad if the reason the Orks do well is because hitting them is cake, but that cake is made of absurdium-malarkyite alloy, so they shrug it off, while the Eldar (Dark or Craftworld, i suppose are both still Eldar) also get hit easily, and then crumple, because they are made of paper and wind. If the above group was fighting anything else OW throws (other than Orks who don't try strategy or tactics, or cover), would they have had any similar trouble? Thanks.

Well, an Eldar trained in Dodge, with a high Agility and Unnatural Agility would, I expect, be pretty hard to hit.

Eldar would be sneak-attacking the Guardsmen, not barreling down a long hallway. And the Guardsmen would be dead before the knew they were being attacked.

Severan Dominate troops wouldn't be fighting like this either.

It's being hard to HIT, and more importantly being hard to SEE.

Will a Dark Eldar Warrior lose in one-on-one, straight close combat with an Ork Boy? Of course. They don't do that.

While I do see what you are saying, sometimes the Eldar will have to fight in the open; TT proves it, and OW is more about war than little pirate skirmishes. Orks just keep shrugging off hits, but I seem to remember the big gripe with DH Ascension (ducked chair) for Vindicares being that they could practically infinitely dodge, meaning most people can't. If Guardsmen see them, they can put down enough firepower to get around some max allowances of Dodge, if it works that way, and even if they aren't doing much with hits they get in, Eldar may not absorb hits well.

Certainly, Dark Eldar will prefer sneaking, and surprise attacks, but Orks CAN do that, too, if they are feeling un-Orky, and are the right Clan. If it goes badly, they are still Orks. If the Eldar's goes badly, I'm not sure how many dodges they get before they, I guess, have to disengage, because one tripped. The book described how Dodge/Evasion works, but it didn't put a cap on how many attacks a round can be avoided, so maybe there isn't one, anymore?

Even I know that I am reading too much into this. It just seemed weird that the Orks in OW are so dumb-durable, when they already get rules for there being a billion of them, and some special abilities/benefits for having such a number around. When it seems so hard to whittle the number down with what Guardsmen get, they do seem a bit more the threat than everyone else, at least to me. If the Severan forces are also fighting Orks, it would almost seem that both sides would just kind of ignore the other, and even if they don't help each other, hope that the Orks kill enough of them, and focus on the biggest nasty, but they don't.

edit: wrong thread

Edit : do mook orks really reduce all damage by 12 when at 0 remaining wounds?

Yes.

They are not (that) hard to get to Crits, but once they are there they take a lot of damage, getting knocked around, having bits blown off, but still fighting. True Grit represents Orky toughness well. (works well for zombies too.) In the game I'm GMing, one runtherd got hit by a heavy stubber three times, a lasgun twice, was shot through the guts with a long las, and hit by a flamer. Finally he collapsed when the flame Fatigue exceeded his TB. He didn't die though.

Moreover, since they have Hardy, they'll be up and ready for more fightin', fully healed, within a couple of days.

Note that at the Crit level they have a soak of 12, but 6 of that will let 1 point of damage through, so what you wind up doing is blow them apart slowly.

Also remember that using the formation rules from EOI means that orc mooks get dropped on any hit that "Penetrates" just like anything else. I've been thinking about houseruling that but the problem is this: Mooks (Of any race) are just that. I was thinking of treating them like comrades but I can see how that would become a bookkeeping nightmare in large battles.Have to think about it some more.

Actually Orks don't drop like anything else using the Formation rules; they have a special rule protecting them from it., albeit they do drop faster than normal.

I'm not sure why people think RPGs need "mooks." OK it helps reproduce an action-movie or pulp-action feel, but I don't like either genre. De gustibus.

Anyway, I don't see an issue here. An individual tough combatant is not the same thing as a strong military threat. Orks cannot shoot (an Ork Shoota Boy -- the ranged specialist -- has a BS of 24! and will be making full-auto attacks if they are normal Orks, beinging their change to hit to 14%). They cannot sneak (contrary to a previous post, Ork Kommandos can sneak but they do it badly). Their vehicles fall apart like they were made of paper. They are not really good at the whole planning thing.

The fact of the matter is that the Imperial Guard will slaughter Orks if they are doing their prefered mode of warfare, which is massed firepower at range. On the other hand, Orks will slaughter the Imperial Guard in their prefered mode of warfare, which is getting stuck in. This should give you a clue as to how to fight them.

Dark Eldar will slaughter either group using their prefered way of warfare, which is sneak attacks and rapid repositioning, but will be slaughtered by either if that doesn't work.

This is how it should be, and I do not see how it is a problem. That is how it works in both fluff and in TT.

Let's do a little thought experiment/dice-rolling waste of time.

Dark Eldar Warrior vs. Ork Boy.

Dark Eldar, being smart, is sneaking up on the Ork. He's in 50 meter range, since he knows that maximizes the effectiveness of his weapon.

How does this work out?

Dark Eldar Stealth is 57 with Unnatural Agility (3). Ork Awareness is... 12.

Opposed Stealth vs. Awareness. Eldar rolls 74, which is 2 degrees of failure.Ork rolls 19, 1 degrees of failure. Eldar wins (surprise!).

What the Dark Eldar should do here is use Suppressing Fire, but he won't because that would complicated things.

He makes a Half-Action Aim and a Full Auto Burst at the unaware Ork. BS46 + 10 (aim) + 10 (range) + 30 (unaware ork) = 96 - 10 (full auto) = 86%. He rolls 37. That's 5 degrees of success. All his shots hits.

His Pen of 3 ignores the Ork's armour.

First hit (to body) does 9 + 2 = 11 damage - 6 TB = 5 damage; the Ork has 7 Wounds left. Toughness Test - 20 for Toxic (2) is 24% and the Ork rolls 80, so he takes another 1d10 = 1 damage ignoring TB and armour. So he has 6 Wounds left.

Second hit (to body) does 3 + 2 = 5 damage - 6 TB =0 damage.

Third hit (to random arm) does 1 damage, BUT the eldar had 5 degrees of success so this becomes 5. 5 + 2 = 7 - TB6 = 1 damage; the Ork has 5 Wounds left. Another Toxic test: he rolls 16 and succeeds. The Ork has 5 Wounds left.

Fourth hit to head does 8 + 2 = 10 - TB6 = 4 damage. The Ork has 1 Wound left. Toxic! He rolls 70. He takes 1d10 = 2 damage. The Ork has -1 Wound left. That's a -1 Rending Crit so he takes a level of Fatigue.

Fifth hit (to random arm) does 4 + 2 - TB6 = 0 damage,

Result of Round 1: Ork has -1 Wounds and is Fatigued.

Round 2. Initiative. Ork rolls 7 + 3 = 10. Not bad. The Dark Eldar has an Agility Bonus of 8 and Lightning Reflexes. He rolls 9 and 1. uses the higher: 9 + 8 = 17. Yeah.

Dark Eldar aims and shoots semi auto at Ork. BS46 + 10 (aim) + 10 (range) = 66% and he rolls 83. Unlucky Eldar.

Ork yells and Runs at Eldar. He moves 18 meters and is now 32 meters from the pointy-eared guy,

End of Round 2: Ork Fatigued, -1 Wounds, 32 meters away.

Again, what the Eldar SHOULD do is use Suppressing Fire, but he won't.

Dark Eldar aims and fires semi-auto at oncoming Ork. BS46 + 10 (short range) + 10 (aim) = 66 - 20 (run) = 46% and he rolls 22. 3 degrees of success = 2 hits. The Ork has a Dodge of 0% due to Fatigue.

First hit to random arm does 3 + 2 = 5 - TB6 = 0.

Second hit to random arm does 7 + 2 = 9 - TB6 = 3 damage. True Grit reduces this to -1, which is a -2 Rending Crit. The Ork drops whatever was in the hand. Hmm so this could be important. Random determination says it is the leftb hand, so he drops his shoota. Also he takes a level of Fatigue. Toughness Test at -20 from Toxic + -10 from fatigue = -30 so his chance to succeed is 14%. He rolls 41 and takes another 1d10 = 5 damage not reduced by Toughness. True Grit drops this to -1, which is a -3 Critical Effect = a Toughness Test or suffer from Blood Loss. Toughness 44 - 10 from Fatigue = 34 and he rolls 64. Ork is now suffering from Bood Loss and takes another level of Fatigue.

Ork Runs forward 18 meters and is now 14 meters from Eldar.

End of Round 3: Ork has 2 levels of Fatigue, -3 Wounds, 14 meters away, and is suffering from Blood Loss.

Round 4!

The Dark Eldar could just run off laughing manaically and wait for the Ork to die of Blood Loss, but he doesn't know the Ork is suffering from it.

Dark Eldar Runs backward! His Run is 48 meters! He is now 62 meters from the Ork.

Anyway, you see where this is going. The ork is going to die soon.

EDIT: If played properly and intelligently, the Dark Eldar above would actually have used Suppressing Fire and/or attempted to reconceal himself after the first round or so (and sneak attack again from another angle), but that would have made things more complicated.

Actually Orks don't drop like anything else using the Formation rules; they have a special rule protecting them from it., albeit they do drop faster than normal.

I'm not sure why people think RPGs need "mooks." OK it helps reproduce an action-movie or pulp-action feel, but I don't like either genre. De gustibus.

Anyway, I don't see an issue here. An individual tough combatant is not the same thing as a strong military threat. Orks cannot shoot (an Ork Shoota Boy -- the ranged specialist -- has a BS of 24! and will be making full-auto attacks if they are normal Orks, beinging their change to hit to 14%). They cannot sneak (contrary to a previous post, Ork Kommandos can sneak but they do it badly). Their vehicles fall apart like they were made of paper. They are not really good at the whole planning thing.

The fact of the matter is that the Imperial Guard will slaughter Orks if they are doing their prefered mode of warfare, which is massed firepower at range. On the other hand, Orks will slaughter the Imperial Guard in their prefered mode of warfare, which is getting stuck in. This should give you a clue as to how to fight them.

Dark Eldar will slaughter either group using their prefered way of warfare, which is sneak attacks and rapid repositioning, but will be slaughtered by either if that doesn't work.

This is how it should be, and I do not see how it is a problem. That is how it works in both fluff and in TT.

A friend of mine refers to this as the "inverse ninja effect". As in: You run into one Ninja and he's crazy scary deadly. If you run into five or even whole mobs of them they drop like flies! Mook rules aside from being cinematic are also intended to ease bookeeping on the Gm. I will freely admit it's not terribly realistic but it does work from a game mechanics point of view. That being said, I suppose it would make sense for Orcs (Or anything with true grit or unnatural toughness) to take 2 hits to "down" when using the formation rules.

Orks do have that rule. It's at the beginning of the Ork subsection of the Formation rules.

Ahah! I found it! Feeling sheepish now! This definitely covers it! So now an Orc underling can take 6 pts. of damage above and beyond it's toughness bonus and armor (For a total of 14 pts!) or it gets a saving throw vs. death. This means that a standard lasgun on normal setting is not very likely to kill an Orc no matter what unless it is buffed somehow. Cool!

To continue my time-wasting exercise, and to further illustrate my point about prefered kinds of fighting.

Up above, we saw that in its prefered more of fighting (medium range, steak attacks, an area in which superior mobility can be used), the Dark Eldar Warrior is a clear winner against the Ork Boy.

BUT! How does it work when the Ork is able to do his thing?

In this scenario, the pointy-ears has been trapped in a small room, 5 x 5 meters, with one exit currently occupied by an Ork Boy.

Initiative! Ork rolls 3 + 3 = 6.

Dark Eldar has an AB of 8 and Lightning Reflexes. He rolls 7 and 8. 8 + 8 = 16 > 6 = the Dark Eldar goes first.

ROUND 1

The Dark Eldar sees the green brute appear at the door. He knows what's about to happen and makes a Guarded Action to blunt the inevitable charge. With his other Half Action he fires a semi auto burst with his splinter rifle. BS46 + 10 (short range) = 56 - 10 (guarded action) = 46%; he rolls 83. A miss.

The Ork laughs and charges at the Dark Eldar. WS37 + 20 for Charge = 57% and he rolls 11. That's 5 degrees of success to the right arm.

The Dark Eldar gets a Dodge, with a +10 for the Guarded Action. His Dodge is Ag57 + 10 + 10 for GA = 77% and he rolls 84. Ouch.

Damage is 1d10+6 + 1 for Brutal Charge (1) = 1d10+7 Pen 2 Tearing. Pen 2 brings the Eldar's AP to 2. Rolls are 8 and 6. Tearing takes the highest. 8 + 7 = 15 - AP2 - TB3 = 10. The Eldar takes 10 Wounds and has 2 left.

RESULTS OF ROUND 1: ORK AND ELDAR ARE STUCK IN, ELDAR HAS 2 WOUNDS.

Round 2!

The Eldar does not like this situation but has nowhere to go. He doesn't have Ambidextrous, oddly enough, so he drops his splinter rifle and Readies his poisoned blade as a Half Action. He then makes a Standard Attack at the Ork. WS41 +10 (standard attack) = 51% and he rolls 74.

The poisoned blade slices empty air as delicious agony courses through the wound in the Eldar's arm.

The Ork chuckles at the puny Eldar's attempts at swordsmanship and makes an All-Out Attack. WS37 + 30 = 67% and he rolls 40. One hit with 3 degrees of sucess to the noggin. The Eldar's Dodge is now 67% and he rolls 34.

Like lightning, the Eldar dodges out of the way of the blow.

Oh no! Orks have Furious Assault. That means another All-Out Attack and he rolls 46. 3 degrees of success to the body.

Eldar is out of Reactions.

Damage is 1d10+6. 6, 9. Tearing uses the highest = 9. 9 + 6 = 15 - AP2 - TB3 = 10. That's a -8 Critical Result. The Eldar must make a Toughness Test or die. He rolls 52.

The second vicious blow nigh cuts the Eldar in half.

The Ork is very disappointed in how quick this was.

RESULT: DEAD ELDAR AFTER TWO ROUNDS! (ALTHOUGH A LUCKY ROLL ON HIS FIRST SPLINTER RIFLE BURST COULD HAVE HELPED HIM).

NEXT: The Imperial Guard in ITS prefered way or warfare vs. an Ork Boy.

Oh no! Orks have Furious Assault. That means another All-Out Attack and he rolls 46. 3 degrees of success to the body.

I don't agree with this point. Furious Assault is not written like that on my book.

Oh no! Orks have Furious Assault. That means another All-Out Attack and he rolls 46. 3 degrees of success to the body.

I don't agree with this point. Furious Assault is not written like that on my book.

Furious Assault is open to a couple of different interpretations, depending on what you mean by "hit."

I assume that "hit" means "make the attack roll," in other words, it is a way to overcome the target's Reactions -- otherwise, there is no way to do so without Two-Weapon Wielder, and Furious Assault becomes rather pointless (as it was in previous games, in which you could do the same thing with Swift Attack, and more effectively to boot).