TIE Defender stats... what's the design intent?

By Chortles, in Game Mechanics

My thoughts too, minor adjustments and you've got a solid Assault Gunboat, perfect for the core rukebook. Leave the Defender for a separate supplement or starfighter themed module or something where it can be presented with a little more context.

Unless its included at the order of lucasfilm because George wants it in episode vii. Unlikely, but possible...

Edited by Ghostofman

This red baron in his uberfighter sounds pretty cool. Can't I play him instead?

So wanting to play imperials now, Erik?

I don't know about the Essential Guides, but from what I remember of my TIE Fighter playing days the Defender wasn't as maneuverable or as fast as the TIE Advanced which was basically an Interceptor on steroids. You could take a lot more hits in the Defender, but it wasn't just plain better.

If some book says that the Defender was just plain better then I think some one needs a beat down. No fighter should be just plain better. That's not even remotely plausible or fun. Engineering is about trade offs. You trade speed for durability, or complexity for capability. There are always downsides.

If something in a game is just plain better than all the other alternatives you really are doing it wrong. You are making your game world more boring and that's just stupid. Choices are what make a role playing game fun. If there are no choices you need to call it something else (like a novel, movie, show, story or some other linear form of media).

So in balance a plain better Defender is fail. It makes no engineering or gaming sense.

Edited by Aservan

I don't know about the Essential Guides, but from what I remember of my TIE Fighter playing days the Defender wasn't as maneuverable or as fast as the TIE Advanced which was basically an Interceptor on steroids. You could take a lot more hits in the Defender, but it wasn't just plain better.

Perhaps you are remembering incorrectly. I've got X-Wing: Alliance installed right now, and I can tell you with certainty that the TIE/D is at least as fast as a TIE Avenger, and if not as maneuverable, very close.

Edit: That said, no one is comparing the TIE/D to the TIE Avenger, since the TIE Avenger isn't statted in the beta anyway.

Sometimes, technological advances make things "just better." An F-22 is "just better" than an F-15 in terms of speed, maneuverability and stealth. So yes, it is plausible, and it's still quite fun.

Edited by Yoshiyahu

Mind you, as certain anecdotes have attested to, even in the imagery that Yoshiyahu draws, "a F-22" can be defeated by "a F-15"... or rather, a pilot in a F-22 can be defeated by a pilot in a F-15 ... among other " platforms that a F-22's gone down to ", ranging from the Growler (supposedly by a well-timed AMRAAM shot) to the Eurofighter Typhoon . :P Mind you, both of the only "officially admitted" ways (for a F-15 to win) involve the F-22 pilot messing up or being inexperienced, whereas at least one German Air Force pilot made allusions to the Typhoon actually being better than the F-22 in a dogfight within visual range (WVR)...

I'm in agreement with Yoshiyahu though that TIE Fighter represented the TIE Defender as "even better than the TIE Avenger", and if anything that -- or rather, the lack of any representation in other sources to the contrary -- is the source of the argument and confusion, hence my own OP. This is also why I looked at JP_JP's suggestion -- simply having the stat block in the beta book be the Alpha -class Xg-1 Star Wing assault gunboat -- with such favor, not least because it was more common and debuted earlier ( read : your players would be way more likely to encounter them).

Mind you, in canon the trade-off for being "just plain better" (blame canon here) was such a high cost -- one TIE Defender was supposed to be more capable than four TIE/LNs, but it cost as many as six -- that, combined with the infamous Imperial naval bias against deflector shields and hyperdrives (to say nothing of so much of the Navy being left out of the loop and resenting its implicit admission of their failure) and the stringent requirements for TIE Defender pilots, it never hit mass production during the Galactic Civil War.

That, and the unfortunate matter of the Grand Admiral behind its design turning traitor and in turn destroying whatever he could of the Empire's TIE Avenger and Defender production capabilities...

EDIT : Emperor Norton sums up my sentiments succinctly.

Edited by Chortles

I would totally be on board with just turning it into the XG-1, cause I always thought it was a cool ship, and I really don't care about the Defender at all. I do have weird issues with them including it and making it not even as manueverable as a TIE Fighter though, it just doesn't match what the ship was.

Basically: Either make it have the stats of a cutting edge ship, or take it out.

Edited by Emperor Norton

More love for the XG-1 Assault gunboat is never a bad thing. I always felt it was an awesome hyperspace raider the Empire needed to scratch the hit-and-run itch, and it can handle itself in a dogfight better than the Skipray.

I'm in favor of a powerful TIE/D. From an empire that can produce multiple multi-mile Super Star Destroyers, a pair of Death Stars, and have the resources to support a galaxy-spanning empire of oppression I can reason that they can make the best fighter in the universe. I think the setting of AoR is a little too early to see TIE/Ds (being set between ANH and ESB?), but they were always in rare numbers even before the end of the Galactic Civil War and should be treated as such.

When I'm GMing I intend to use the TIE/Ds as a discouragement tool. No, you're not going to Coruscant to raid tat Imperial Vault. You have to fight through a wave of TIE/Ds to get there. They should be nemesis-level adversaries.

We ran a few test combats... 1 TIE/D is almost exactly the same capability as a 2 ship minion of TIE/LN... and more susceptible to take-outs. Erik's complaints are without merit. It's good, but it's not an "imperial sue"...

If anything the real sue is the Y-wing with 2 seats and a droid. There's your sue.

Let's clear this up. An F-22 is better than an F-15 in many ways, but it is not just plain better. An F-22 takes more people to build, and maintain. It is difficult to repair compared to an F-15. Sometimes F-22 pilots run out of O2 for no particular reason. It costs a whole hell of a lot more. It's a better long range fighter, but not a better dog fighter than a Euro trash jet (which costs less than half as much).

$420 Million for an F-22, $28 Million for an F-15.

According to my math that's 15 times the cost. Not 6 like some are suggesting the Defender should run for. The F-15 also entered service in 1976. Star Wars is a mature technology setting. There aren't supposed to be huge upgrades to tech in 20 years of time.

I'm all for upgrading the Defender in Age of Rebellion, but if they do they need to upgrade some downsides as well. When we add capability in engineering we usually sacrifice simplicity. There are consequences to that. While I grant that it's hard to model that in an RPG, it doesn't mean they shouldn't at least make a nod in that direction.

Maybe upgrade the speed of TIE/D, but give it a rule that applies black dice to use mechanics on it given the complexity of its systems.

I realize that we are burdened with the past mistakes of authors. The Defender is now a part of "cannon" and has a holy status to some. That doesn't mean FFG wants to wreck their version of the system with a super star fighter that can do everything and make French fries to boot.

Games work better when you have to make choices.

Let's clear this up. An F-22 is better than an F-15 in many ways, but it is not just plain better. An F-22 takes more people to build, and maintain. It is difficult to repair compared to an F-15. Sometimes F-22 pilots run out of O2 for no particular reason. It costs a whole hell of a lot more. It's a better long range fighter, but not a better dog fighter than a Euro trash jet (which costs less than half as much).

$420 Million for an F-22, $28 Million for an F-15.

According to my math that's 15 times the cost. Not 6 like some are suggesting the Defender should run for. The F-15 also entered service in 1976. Star Wars is a mature technology setting. There aren't supposed to be huge upgrades to tech in 20 years of time.

I'm all for upgrading the Defender in Age of Rebellion, but if they do they need to upgrade some downsides as well. When we add capability in engineering we usually sacrifice simplicity. There are consequences to that. While I grant that it's hard to model that in an RPG, it doesn't mean they shouldn't at least make a nod in that direction.

Maybe upgrade the speed of TIE/D, but give it a rule that applies black dice to use mechanics on it given the complexity of its systems.

I realize that we are burdened with the past mistakes of authors. The Defender is now a part of "cannon" and has a holy status to some. That doesn't mean FFG wants to wreck their version of the system with a super star fighter that can do everything and make French fries to boot.

Games work better when you have to make choices.

A few things:

No one said that the F-22 wasn't more expensive. It is. So is the TIE/D. Both the F-22 and the TIE/D had their planned production numbers cut due to the cost and complexity associated with making them. Do you know the dollar to credit conversion rate? Or for that matter, what a 1976 dollar was worth compared to a 2013 dollar compared to a 3 ABY Imperial credit? Please explain how the cost of the TIE/D is too low, based on your vast knowledge of the economics of a galaxy-spanning civilization that doesn't exist.

And where on earth did you get that "$420,000,000" number for the F-22? The per-unit cost in 2009 dollars was ~$150,000,000 according to the Air Force's budget for 2010. For the record, $28,000,000 in 1976 is equivalent to ~$106,060,000 in 2009.

You also keep ranting about how a canon-accurate TIE/D somehow removes "choice," yet you fail to explain how it allegedly does so, or what choices are being removed. This is a game that generally focuses on being a member of the Rebel Alliance. TIE Defenders will be rare to begin with, but will most likely be almost unheard of to the vast majority of the galaxy. TIE Defenders are also going to be advanced weapons of the Empire. They are intended to be used as a high-threat, Nemesis level opponent for the players. The only person who needs to use "choice" is the GM, who can choose whether or not the players ever encounter them. Someone who is being faithful to the setting is going to run them as the lethal fighters that they are, but they're also going to run them as extremely rare as well.

Have you actually read the beta? Do you play it? It seems like your complaints are based in both an ignorance of the setting and an illogical demand for "balance" for a piece of equipment that the players themselves will probably never have access to. Even if you were running an Imperial campaign, it's not as if the players could just waltz into the hangar of their Friendly Local Star Destroyer and take one for a spin.

This isn't d20. NPCs don't even use the same character creation rules that player characters do. You might as well be telling the forums that the "Adversary" talent isn't balanced. It's like claiming that an ancient red dragon in D&D is too powerful, and none of your players are going to want to play anything else.

If FFG elects to "upgrade" the TIE/D, it should be so that it's faithful to the setting. The "downgrades," and drawbacks should only be added if they exist in the setting, and for the most part, they already exist.

Finally, your use of the word "fail" as a noun, and your casual use of disparaging terms like "Eurotrash" aren't doing your credibility any favors. It's certainly not going to endear you to the many European members of this forum, and it doesn't make you look "edgy." It just makes you sound like a teenager.

I agree with Yoshiyahu, if they really want to put the Tie Defender into AoR, they should make it faithfull to previous canon. They could however put some draw backs like increased difficult for maintenance and no Hard Points for attachments (it already has o HP).

They only problem I see right now is that the increment for each step between values for Handling and Speed are too steep. Let's say that an Interceptor has 200 speed, the A-wing has 240 speed and you put the Defender at 230 speed (fictional values with no real reference to canon) ; it's a lot harder to distinguish them with speed 6, speed 6, and also speed 6... I would not give speed 7 to the Tie Defender.... but that isn't really a problem... I can live with a Speed 6, Handling 3, Shields 1/0/0/1, Armor 3 and HT/SS 10/10 (i'd probably vote for a SS of 7-8 since it's a prototype with the latest tech)...

Anyway, if the Tie Defender is has good or has bad, or immensly overpowered, is all up to the gamemaster... Personnaly, if they ever face one, it's gonna be a Red Baron kind of fighter, the top gun of the sector who is the only one to have that awesome ship.... and if my players ever found a way to get one, they would be mercilesly hunted by the Empire until they are disposed of or the Empire get's back its ship. They could never ever use it freely...

I think that a lot of folks really like the Star Wing Assault Gunboat idea...
Can't wait to see if it makes it into the next beta update :P

I would be up for the assault gunboat solution. After all, the ghtroc freighter was changed up with the wayfarer for the edge of the empire final release.

I too like the idea of replacing it with the Assault Gunboat. It would be an ideal craft for AoR.

- - -

I love the TIE/D, but if they're looking to include an imperial dogfighter to stand up to the X-wing then I'd much prefer the gunboat or the newer TIE Avenger. The TIE/D, as has been mentioned, is an expensive and rare piece of hardware that never entered production during the civil war and likely never did afterwards. It really should be reserved as a significant show of the empires might not unlike the TIE Phantom, the Dark Trooper project, and other significant or even super weapons. The TIE/D need not be as overpowered as it appears in the Tie Fighter game, but the AoR stats certainly fall short of even a basic understanding of the craft.

The funny thing is, if I recall, the Star Wars: X-Wing game did use the Assault Gunboat as its (out-of-universe) Imperial answer to the X-wing, although by the rules of FFG SWRPG the stat block is actually closer to a more maneuverable BTL-A4 Y-wing (the single-seater with forward-fixed ion cannons) but without an astromech droid...

the assault gunboat idea is brilliant, both to keep game balance and to be true to lore.

if you really want an uber-nemesis, you could always go for a missile boat. ;)

Someone already statted that up. :lol: