Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Space Marines are going anywhere; there are some tasks that only Space Marines, and occasionally only Terminators, can handle.

As a completely unrelated aside, I do occasionally find it weird how the Imperium is taught to feel a way, but then a blatant reverse happens with someone important, and that exception is allowed. In some ways, anyway, I view the Space Marines as mutants; they are Humans who have been dramatically changed into something more. Under most circumstances, the Imperial mantra is "suffer not the mutant", but because these mutants were created by the Emperor, they are perfectly fine (minus a few fools who maybe do view Space Marines negatively, but don't dare say so). The Emperor is my other example. Humans HATE psykers, no matter how critical to the Imperium a select variety might be, and the really powerful ones are feared and burned, yet the Emperor, the most powerful psyker on record, is loved and adored; no one ever feared that His power might backfire, and place Khorne physically in front of everyone.

In both cases, I know that there is established stuff to cushion these into being acceptable, but it still seems odd for a group who reviles "different", but worships a super-psyker sorcerer (shamans kind of seem to use "magic") and his army of mutant supermen. Two blazing examples of being as far from baseline Human as possible, yet revered by those who seek to stagnate Human development and progress.

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Space Marines are going anywhere; there are some tasks that only Space Marines, and occasionally only Terminators, can handle.

As a completely unrelated aside, I do occasionally find it weird how the Imperium is taught to feel a way, but then a blatant reverse happens with someone important, and that exception is allowed. In some ways, anyway, I view the Space Marines as mutants; they are Humans who have been dramatically changed into something more. Under most circumstances, the Imperial mantra is "suffer not the mutant", but because these mutants were created by the Emperor, they are perfectly fine (minus a few fools who maybe do view Space Marines negatively, but don't dare say so). The Emperor is my other example. Humans HATE psykers, no matter how critical to the Imperium a select variety might be, and the really powerful ones are feared and burned, yet the Emperor, the most powerful psyker on record, is loved and adored; no one ever feared that His power might backfire, and place Khorne physically in front of everyone.

In both cases, I know that there is established stuff to cushion these into being acceptable, but it still seems odd for a group who reviles "different", but worships a super-psyker sorcerer (shamans kind of seem to use "magic") and his army of mutant supermen. Two blazing examples of being as far from baseline Human as possible, yet revered by those who seek to stagnate Human development and progress.

The thing is, they're not categorized as such. It's not really the idea that "The Emperor made them, so it's OK" - it's that they don't fit the category of "mutant" as the Imperium and it's people uses it. They simply aren't mutants, they're Space Marines.

Now, from your point of view, they are essentially mutants, if engineered. But from the perspective of the Imperium at large, nothing could be further from the truth. If you think about it, we have this double-think in the world today, in a great many cases, where people often react with outright hostility if you point it out; take the issue of race as an example. Talk about sub-species, races and breeds of any range of animal species, and nobody bats an eye. Talk about race in the context of humans, and everyone loses their minds.

Another example in the same vein would be how people would define - or rather, try to not define - "mutant". There's all kinds of mutations running around out there - take sickle-cell disease, for example. Or any number of hereditary diseases. Technically mutations, too, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone calling these people "mutants".

The same goes for "psyker".

Call the Emperor a psyker and you'll probably get shot, filthy heretic. And what was that? You even suggested he was a sorcerer, you double-heretic scum?

Yep that's right he's not a Psyker he's a God manifesting his divine powers, so that makes it okay.

And of course the Astartes are his angels of death created in his image so that's okay too, never mind the chameleon skin, spitting venom all the other what not!

All hail the hypocritical Imperium!

Yep that's right he's not a Psyker he's a God manifesting his divine powers, so that makes it okay.

And of course the Astartes are his angels of death created in his image so that's okay too, never mind the chameleon skin, spitting venom all the other what not!

All hail the hypocritical Imperium!

I find it rather ironic that most people seem to act as if out-of-character knowledge (Emperor was psyker) is something that the average joe, let alone anyone, actually knows about.

Of course they don't know, the average Imperial citizen is nothing more than an ignorant space age peasant and for those who do know it's in their best interests not to let the cat out of the bag, less they lose all control and credibility.

It's funny from outside perspective and quite a clever satire of religion in general I.E. "all magic is evil and practiced only by the most vile practitioners of the dark arts...... that's exactly the same as the powers our God/Saviour/Prophet etc manifests you say..... oh no, no not at all those are divine miracles so they are completely different and completely okay!".

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Space Marines are going anywhere; there are some tasks that only Space Marines, and occasionally only Terminators, can handle.

As a completely unrelated aside, I do occasionally find it weird how the Imperium is taught to feel a way, but then a blatant reverse happens with someone important, and that exception is allowed. In some ways, anyway, I view the Space Marines as mutants; they are Humans who have been dramatically changed into something more. Under most circumstances, the Imperial mantra is "suffer not the mutant", but because these mutants were created by the Emperor, they are perfectly fine (minus a few fools who maybe do view Space Marines negatively, but don't dare say so). The Emperor is my other example. Humans HATE psykers, no matter how critical to the Imperium a select variety might be, and the really powerful ones are feared and burned, yet the Emperor, the most powerful psyker on record, is loved and adored; no one ever feared that His power might backfire, and place Khorne physically in front of everyone.

In both cases, I know that there is established stuff to cushion these into being acceptable, but it still seems odd for a group who reviles "different", but worships a super-psyker sorcerer (shamans kind of seem to use "magic") and his army of mutant supermen. Two blazing examples of being as far from baseline Human as possible, yet revered by those who seek to stagnate Human development and progress.

The thing is, they're not categorized as such. It's not really the idea that "The Emperor made them, so it's OK" - it's that they don't fit the category of "mutant" as the Imperium and it's people uses it. They simply aren't mutants, they're Space Marines.

Now, from your point of view, they are essentially mutants, if engineered. But from the perspective of the Imperium at large, nothing could be further from the truth. If you think about it, we have this double-think in the world today, in a great many cases, where people often react with outright hostility if you point it out; take the issue of race as an example. Talk about sub-species, races and breeds of any range of animal species, and nobody bats an eye. Talk about race in the context of humans, and everyone loses their minds.

Another example in the same vein would be how people would define - or rather, try to not define - "mutant". There's all kinds of mutations running around out there - take sickle-cell disease, for example. Or any number of hereditary diseases. Technically mutations, too, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone calling these people "mutants".

The same goes for "psyker".

Call the Emperor a psyker and you'll probably get shot, filthy heretic. And what was that? You even suggested he was a sorcerer, you double-heretic scum?

Sometimes, I am good at forgetting what the "typical" Imperial citizen might know, or even the "typical Player Character. Most of my bit there is meant to be from an outside looking in perspective; WE know these things about the Emperor, or the Space Marines, and some other beings might (the Tech-Priest magos who oversee the maintenance of the Golden Throne, or train the Techmarines on Mars, the High Lords of Terra, Eldrad, and a few others), but some bits might be outside the purview of any regular PC, unless the are among some truly nosebleed echelons of power.

As for calling Him a Sorcerer, that's because he is sometimes described as using magic, being a shaman (I see shamans as wise, and possibly magically-inclined individuals). "Magic" in 40K seems to be the purview of Sorcerers, using bizarre psychic powers in a way even regular psykers don't.

Of course they don't know, the average Imperial citizen is nothing more than an ignorant space age peasant and for those who do know it's in their best interests not to let the cat out of the bag, less they lose all control and credibility.

It's funny from outside perspective and quite a clever satire of religion in general I.E. "all magic is evil and practiced only by the most vile practitioners of the dark arts...... that's exactly the same as the powers our God/Saviour/Prophet etc manifests you say..... oh no, no not at all those are divine miracles so they are completely different and completely okay!".

Yeah, we view necromancers as evil, corrupting the cycles of life and death, perverting the souls of the departed, yadda yadda yadda, but Jesus did it, and it's a miracle. Not trying to smack on Jesus, but he might be the only church-accepted necromancer I ever heard of. It's not black magic when he does it; it's a miracle. On the plus side, Lazarus also wasn't enslaved as a zombie/servitor, and was allowed to return to death, so maybe that helps.

I really would like to see a substantial book on Explorators though. I took a brief look at The Lathe Worlds, but didn't feel overly impressed by it (admittingly, I may not have caught the good stuff).

The problem with The Lathe Worlds is that they focus on exactly that - The Lathe Worlds. A lot of the Mechanicus info in them is still viable, like the info on the various subfactions and the organization of the Mechanicus, but there isn't really that much to add about the Explorator fleets that hasn't been mentioned in various other books. Getting a really small supplement on the Explorator fleet, no more than seventy pages, would be kind of cool though. It'd fill out and collect the data from other sources and present it in a more collected form.

Why wouldn't there be more to add about the Explorator fleets that hasn't been mentioned in various other books? As far as I'm aware, very little has been covered in the books, pertaining to Explorator fleets, I mean.

Especially since an Explorator fleet might be the one place you might find a "Legitimate" Battleship in the expanse: The Ark mechanicus class of Explorator vessels! It might make an interesting variant game. The Admech does go out into the unknown and when they do, They go in style! The Battleship would serve as the focal point of a whole task force or Admech battlefleet but they operate under much the same auspices as a Rogue trader. Their focus is of course, somewhat different (The recovery of technology instead of pure profit) but their methods are pretty similar.

The thing is, they're not categorized as such. It's not really the idea that "The Emperor made them, so it's OK" - it's that they don't fit the category of "mutant" as the Imperium and it's people uses it. They simply aren't mutants, they're Space Marines.

It may actually be possible that this aspect has been downplayed somewhat in the recent years, though, seeing as I've not read a similar paragraph again in a later book. If so, I'd find it a bit unfortunate, as I much prefer the contradictory perception. It just seems more "grey" (and fitting for the IoM), and I generally like grey as opposed to boring black/white portrayals.

Note that Astartes have a great deal more benefits than just wearing power armor. If you really look at them, they have some benefits that no amount of gene modding is going to copy. My players have elite troops with excellent equipment that kick ass across the Expanse. Those troops still look upon the Astartes with awe, for good reason.

Reading Faith and Fire, and its sequal Hammer and Anvil, that's still exactly how the Sororitas see space marines.

Oh, yes, I mean in GW's own books. I like Mr. Swallow's novels for largely staying faithful to the original Sororitas fluff, but I'd still like to see this topic come up in the core studio's material too. Novels are, at the end of the day, only that specific author's interpretation, and whilst technically a novel is just as valid (or irrelevant) as, say, a codex, the latter still has a higher chance of influencing subsequent publications, and thus steer general perception.

For an opposing interpretation, apparently Blood of Asaheim would do a "good" job. Here's two short reviews from two other SoB fans --->

Blood of Asaheim? The same book that has a Canoness losing her faith, only to have it restored by some Space Wolves? And Sisters who go around letting plague victims into their perimeter, in the midst of a Nurglite incursion? If that's the alternate version, then I think I vastly prefer the studio fluff version, thanks.

They have an okay portrayal in that they aren't shown as drinking, flirting or gambling, I guess.

However, they also don't do anything until the Wolves tell them to. They have a month before the enemy army arrives to besiege their walled city. They don't make any preparations to defend said city until the Wolves arrive two days before the army arrives. Literally none.

They also allow plague carriers into the city in the name of sentimentality and charity ("I thought we were saving them" - a direct quote from the canoness, who then admits she was wrong and should have killed them as soon as the Space Wolves tell her so).

The Sisterhoods Face Character, an ex-famulous who previously worked with the Inquisition, actively kills several of her Sisters in a fake infiltration raid in order to cover up and destroy Inquisition secrets... which she then tells to the person she was hiding them from anyway. Oh, and she admits to lacking faith and being a doubter. So the face character is an explicitly bad Battle Sister.

Finally, a Palatine and five Sisters with flamers, along with a platoon of Imperial guardsmen, in an entrenched, defensive position manage to kill "dozens" of cultists before being overwhelmed and killed. Compare to the Wolves killing "thousands" and walking home.

Somehow, this is portrayed as impressive. So, Blood of Asaheim may not have whorish, gambling Sisters... but it does have incompetent, lazy, treacherous and overall faithless Sisters. Even the Canoness says "I had lost faith and thought we were going to die until you arrived" - talking about an under-strength squad of Grey Hunters, who apparently are so awesome that they teach a Canoness of the Sisters of Battle to believe in the Emperor again.

By the way, these are Wounded Heart sisters - they faced down the 13th black crusade, yet here they doubt, lose faith and give up because of a horde of cultists led by three plague marines. Three.

And really, Space Wolves, of all Chapters. Geez.

Small nitpick, but back in the 2E SoB Codex it's been mentioned that, yes, essentially it really is the idea that "the Emperor made them, so it's OK" - and even then this is just one of two prevalent views within the Ecclesiarchy, the opposing perspective being that the Space Marines are dangerous abhumans with barbaric if not heretical traditions.

It may actually be possible that this aspect has been downplayed somewhat in the recent years, though, seeing as I've not read a similar paragraph again in a later book.

Reading Faith and Fire, and its sequal Hammer and Anvil, that's still exactly how the Sororitas see space marines.

I remember when I was reading Hammer and Anvil (cause SOB are my favorite faction) and the Cannoness...and I QUOTE...called the Space Marines a "bunch of egotistical savages and underhive scum who are so obessed with transhumanist claptrap that they wouldn't know true faith if they were looking into the eyes of He Who Is On Earth."

I literally dropped the book and went, "OH SNAP! SHE JUST CALLED YOU ******* OUT, DOG!"

As this was the middle of a family reuinion with my Mormon relatives, it was rather akward.

As a completely unrelated aside, I do occasionally find it weird how the Imperium is taught to feel a way, but then a blatant reverse happens with someone important, and that exception is allowed. In some ways, anyway, I view the Space Marines as mutants; they are Humans who have been dramatically changed into something more. Under most circumstances, the Imperial mantra is "suffer not the mutant", but because these mutants were created by the Emperor, they are perfectly fine (minus a few fools who maybe do view Space Marines negatively, but don't dare say so). The Emperor is my other example. Humans HATE psykers, no matter how critical to the Imperium a select variety might be, and the really powerful ones are feared and burned, yet the Emperor, the most powerful psyker on record, is loved and adored; no one ever feared that His power might backfire, and place Khorne physically in front of everyone.

In both cases, I know that there is established stuff to cushion these into being acceptable, but it still seems odd for a group who reviles "different", but worships a super-psyker sorcerer (shamans kind of seem to use "magic") and his army of mutant supermen. Two blazing examples of being as far from baseline Human as possible, yet revered by those who seek to stagnate Human development and progress.

As already mentioned, the regular Imperial citizen, let alone some Inquisitors, don't even know the Emperor is a powerful psyker or that Space Marines are "mutants" (genetically engineered yes, and some have abnormalities, though IMO this does not qualify them as mutants). From what I remember reading, the Imperium started hating psykers and mutants only after the Emperor was injured and placed on the golden throne. The High Lords of Terra, Lord Inquisitors, and especially the Ecclesiarchy decreed all this to "save the Imperium" from itself...... Which led to the Emperor being decreed as a God, to fear the psyker, to hate the mutant, etc etc. Can’t really quote where I learned this from, but as with anything cannon in 40k, everything is cannon. Don’t fret on it to much venkelos. It's a sci-fi game and can't make sense in most aspects.

In 40k there's (probably) no God, only gods. And by god you can understand everything from Emperor to particular Deamon Prince or some feral idol on backwater planet.

I have my hands on Faith and Coin now, and I only have one comment:

Faith and Coin is to Rogue Trader what the Book of Judgement is to Dark Heresy.

A nice supplement full of interesting information, but with completely broken tables, weapons and gear.

@Fgdsfg Why do you hate magnetic attack dog... er... things.

@Fgdsfg Why do you hate magnetic attack dog... er... things.

I.. what?

I think he's asking what you have against Cyber-Mastiffs with magnetic lockjaws from Book of Judgement.

I have my hands on Faith and Coin now, and I only have one comment:

Faith and Coin is to Rogue Trader what the Book of Judgement is to Dark Heresy.

A nice supplement full of interesting information, but with completely broken tables, weapons and gear.

Couldn't agree more.

Fluff and this 4 missionaries stuff is coll but Artificer armour and void shielded box just made me weep.

Thirded

I think he's asking what you have against Cyber-Mastiffs with magnetic lockjaws from Book of Judgement.

Nothing, really. Nothing at all.

What I don't like is stacking armours and items with really weird acquisition modifiers.

This is a real issue in Faith and Coin. Point in case:

The Availability of that thing (without the Consecration)? Extremely Rare. The Armour? 10.

An armour with 10 AP, described as being more rare than an imperial battleship, blows a regular Power Armour out of the water, lasts for a flat 24 hours usage, and includes advanced helmet systems.

Extremely Rare.

There's several examples of this. There's a "Scourge Boltgun", Range 90m, RoF S/2/4, 1d10+5 X, Pen 4, Clip 24, Tearing, Reliable - with an Availability of Scarce. SCARCE!

In the text for the weapon, it's described as Mars-pattern for christ's sake! IT'S FROM BLOODY MARS!

There's a bunch of really odd things like this.

The book is very solid, it's shock-full of good information, and there's a bunch of really cool options there, even if some of the Alternate Career Ranks are a bit lackluster (a lot of "Spend Fate to Succeed on X, or "Use Y Characteristic instead of standard for Z Skill"), they are all interesting, fluffed well, and have a lot of potential. I personally love the Beastmaster, the Reliquarist and the Order of the Hammer Initiate, for a variety of reasons, and I really want to play a Transubstantial Initiate Astropath next, going into Order of the Hammer Initiate as a teaching, missionary-like, brainwashing Astropath.

Really great book, with some really dodgy parts.

All in all, exactly like Book of Judgement.

Yeah, 5 poor quality (blasphemy!) artificers armour for staring aquisition and lets go hunting.

Void coffer - like: indistructable, energy self-sufficiant, custom made box of doom.

I mean - how exactly big is this thing? If it's small than hell with the coffer I want this void shield generator as my back pack and if it's big I'll get some tech priest to add wheels and guns.

**** AdMech Knights are told to be to small to house void shields!

Rosarius - force field and +10 interaction with anyone who is adherent or just pretendts to be of Imperial Creed. Who needs renown warrant now?

Order of the Hammer is great, fluffy and all - but their skill/talent list is imho bit over the top. 5 scholastic and common lores for 100 exp each, 3 trades for 100 exp each and rhetoric as a sweet cherry? It's almost a must-have (from crunch point of view) for every carrier low on fel but with high int.

Luckly they don't put in tech-use for a good measure, so AdMech won't lose its job.

The Availability of that thing (without the Consecration)? Extremely Rare. The Armour? 10.

An armour with 10 AP, described as being more rare than an imperial battleship, blows a regular Power Armour out of the water, lasts for a flat 24 hours usage, and includes advanced helmet systems.

Extremely Rare.

What? That's ridiculous, they even identify in the fluff that these suits of Armour are rarer than Battleships, and owning one is such a huge status symbol that an RT dynasty will go to any lengths to acquire one and then never rare it just for the status symbol, let me just check here....

...

Okay well one deep breath later I still wouldn't let my players have this unless they roleplay the acquisition. Bob's Discount Tech Emporium - the chain from which they make all their acquisitions - does not have infinite stock!

Perhaps they forgot to add "always considered best quality", thus upping the availability by two notches, ergo, up to Unique ?

I'm not sure how to read the "always considered best quality". I debated this with my players that this meant they should have to test it at an additional -30, but they made a rather convincing argument that it just meant when produced it was always at Best Quality, so therefore that should be factored into its availability.

Perhaps they forgot to add "always considered best quality", thus upping the availability by two notches, ergo, up to Unique ?

When an object is "always considered best quality", this is already accounted for in the Availability.