Regarding the Mon Calamari. I have to agree that the Amphibious race trait is going to be useful in game very seldom. Therefore, I would move it to a flavor description of the race, instead of being a race advantage.

On the other hand, the Education skill feels ok to me, it is a useful skill and it grasp the flavor of the Mon Calamari advanced civilization, that has high regards for art, science etc..

I was thinking that another very iconic aspect of Mon Calamari are their ships. What about then substituting the Amphibious current advantage (which would become a flavor of the race) for one rank in Mechanics skill?

I really have no problem with the new races whatsoever, The Duros - the race of my favourite character of mine (Kavis Foon), seem great. They've been in space so long they know all the hyperroutes. The Mon Calamari with amphibious and Education suit them greatly. They are very intelligent, live on an mostly water world. That is the race to a tee.

Sullustans, well, I don't see them as being expert pilots but, hey why not. Sorosuub is a corporation, maybe they need lots of pilots. I think there could be a good way to represent how they are supposed to never get lost.

Ithorian - perfect to me as well. They have a far from optimal natural 'weapon'.

Gran seem good - personally, I think they should have 2 boost dice to thrown attacks, but that is just from playing Jedi Knight and Dark forces.

I think the real problem is how hard-wired it is encoded in most of us roleplayers to look at the bonuses of the races. I try to choose a race because I have an idea. I love the gand, and I would probably play one with lungs - because, hey challenge. If I ever get to play the game rather than run it I may play a gran that is anti-social who likes throwing things at people - because, hey, dark forces.

I really don't think that everything has to be perfectly balanced. Except the force. But, some races may be better, than others statistically, but I play the races I like because of how they look. Plain and simple.

They are very intelligent, live on an mostly water world. That is the race to a tee.

To me this is a case of the race having established fluff, and trying (but failing) to make good, effective crunch while keeping true to the fluff. Also, to me, every single one having a trained Knowledge Skill closes off character concepts (as if there aren't uneducated Mon Cal thugs). I view the Species Characteristic bonuses of organic species as something mostly genetic, but every Skill is described as something that's studied, trained, or practiced by most members of the species, or something inherited but plays along with part of their anatomy (e.g. Twi'leks are naturally poised and thus either learn or intuit how to use their looks to get what they want). Making a Knowledge into that goes too far past nature and even nurture into, well, formal education for lack of a better term.

This is perhaps something that should be addressed by Fantasy Flight, but can also be done by players and game masters: To make a variation of a species. It is being done for humans from Correllia. I think the race entry should represent the most common element of a species. By adding a sub-species or variation such as Correllians, we can get the variation.

Now, the part for Game masters and players is if you want to play an uneducated mon calamari, which by the fluff seems to be uncommon, then come to an accord.

The problem is once you start trying to quantify everything about a species, it is going to bog the game down. Mon Calamari have webbed hands, they should have a setback die on using all equipment not designed for them, etc. Where do you draw the line?

Aquatic is an important part of the species, as is them being very intelligent and educated. webbed hands, not so much.

I don't have a problem how they are presented. Age of Rebellion is giving the race as a member of the Rebellion, meaning they are less of a thug for hire, and a member of the general populace that is trying to free their world.

I'm totally not a the type to let stats dictate the race I'll play. Heaven forbid, I make pathfinder characters who's race don't get a boost in the primary stat for their class.

That said, I'm kind of a snob for aesthetics. I want my race to look good, and for the most part they need to have at least some recognizable correlation with humans. Fantasy games have a lot of races, but for the most part they all have eyes, noses, mouths, and ears in the same place. in the WEG Star Wars where races were much more flexible I would take a human, give it some odd extra features (fangs, extra height/bulk, weird hair, color, fur, whatever) and call it a near-human. So far EotE doesn't have anything like that. You're either human, or very alien. The Corellian coming out shortly will grant one alternative, but it is still basically human.

That's pretty much why my first character was a human. That said, now that I'm a bit more familiar with the system I'd feel no compunction about reskinning any of the races. Take their stats/talents and saying "they look like this."

I think you can and should totally be able to play near-Humans in Edge with the RAW Species stuff. It'd all be cosmetic differences but if your Zabrak having a horned ridge and being a part of that culture is all you're wanting out of it (as opposed to some kind of different stats) then nothing is really stopping you.

Regarding the Mon Calamari. I have to agree that the Amphibious race trait is going to be useful in game very seldom. Therefore, I would move it to a flavor description of the race, instead of being a race advantage.

On the other hand, the Education skill feels ok to me, it is a useful skill and it grasp the flavor of the Mon Calamari advanced civilization, that has high regards for art, science etc..

I was thinking that another very iconic aspect of Mon Calamari are their ships. What about then substituting the Amphibious current advantage (which would become a flavor of the race) for one rank in Mechanics skill?

I'd argue mechanics is too valuable.

With the way they write the races, amphibious needs to be an advantage. It just needs to be about a 2 point one.

What I'd suggest is any one of the following

1. Kn. (Edu) 1

   Amphibious

   105 XP

2. Kn (Edu) 1

   Kn (any other) 1

   Amphibious

   95 XP

3. Kn (Edu) 1

   Amphibious

   Pick any one skill as a class skill

   105 XP

   ​

4. Kn (Any) 1

   Amphibious

   100 XP

The fluff elsewhere says they're some of the best educated beings anywhere in the SWG. One rank of education just feels wrong. Also, 95 XP would allow any one skill or talent and a 5 /2/2/2/2/ 1 or 3 /3/3/3/2/ 1 or 4 /3/2/2/2/ 2 att spread.. and in small party edge games, allow hitting 5 /2/2/2/2/ 2

I think my 3rd suggestion probably is the best modeling of their exquisite education - it's got a long term impact, and allows them a cheaper progression.

Really, tho', I want to see more texture to the races. The edge races all have more mechanical interest to their abilities. The AoR alien races are pretty flat - almost all (except the ithorian) 100 points.

Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn

Strain Threshold: 10 + Willpower

Starting Experience: 100

NATURAL INTELLIGENCE: Duros reduce the difficulty dice off all Knowledge skill rolls by one.

I think that species getting latent talent boosts to learned and highly technical technical skills is silly. Here's my version of the Duros.

DUROS SPECIES ABILITIES:

BRAWN 2

AGILITY 2

INTELLECT 3

CUNNING 2

WILLPOWER 2

PRESENCE 2

Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn

Strain Threshold: 10 + Willpower

Starting Experience: 100

NATURAL INTELLIGENCE: Duros reduce the difficulty dice off all Knowledge skill rolls by one.

Starting with a 3 in a characteristic without having a 1 in another characteristic is way too good.

Or if not they certainly should have like...80 XP to spend or something, max.

Flat Difficulty -1 is also really good.

Duros • the amazing bounty Hunter Cad Bane from clone wars animation serie.

When a Gm has an amphibious PC in the party, that ability should prevail somewhere in the adventure. City underwater (quarren moncal...) fight on water (kamino city), use water has a situation hazard (chase in underground dark river, roadtrip through a dangerous river needing to construct something, indy jones rope bridge breaking) or a way to secretly enter a location (underground through water ressource beneath the cities of ryloth), and don't forget water some Niagara falls (predator style), deadly river with strange people around (Delivrance style), ice landscape crushed by a warm turbolaser planetary bombing (hoth ?) escape pod landing in the middle of a lake (naboo ?)...

Such Pc abilities are tremendous inspiration for designing stories and encounters.

Duros • the amazing bounty Hunter Cad Bane from clone wars animation serie.

Also a prime example of a very experienced PC (if one were to try and recreate Cad Bane as a player-character), having completed most of the Gadgeteer tree and probably moved on to Mercenary Soldier and Outlaw Tech as well.

When a Gm has an amphibious PC in the party, that ability should prevail somewhere in the adventure. City underwater (quarren moncal...) fight on water (kamino city), use water has a situation hazard (chase in underground dark river, roadtrip through a dangerous river needing to construct something, indy jones rope bridge breaking) or a way to secretly enter a location (underground through water ressource beneath the cities of ryloth), and don't forget water some Niagara falls (predator style), deadly river with strange people around (Delivrance style), ice landscape crushed by a warm turbolaser planetary bombing (hoth ?) escape pod landing in the middle of a lake (naboo ?)...

I get what you are saying, but now you have tyranny by player.

Basically, under your paradigm a player gets to claim, "I'm playing a Mon Cal so you have to tailor your campaign to meet my needs, or you're a bad GM."

That's not fair to the GM or the other players in the group. What happens if one person plays a Mon Cal and another goes for Twi'Lek? Now you have to have arid water-scapes? Every setting will start to look the same because there just aren't that many juxtapositions of those two features.

What if you get the player who's a good guy but isn't that creative? He never sees the watery opportunities that the GM is offering? Granted that's more the player's problem, but his dissatisfaction will tend to bleed into the game session itself.

It's better just to admit that the in-game utility of Amphibious is questionable, and to offer a compelling advantage to make up for it. I don't think that this is a difficult game design challenge on the designers part. A few extra XP and the issue is solved.

I don't want a repeat of D&D4e where game balance meant fluff boring, but I do think that striving for game balance is important. If one race is a tiny bit better, or worse it's fine. We aren't talking about a tiny bit in a few cases, however.

that's a lot of what if, and a lot of big words. Isn't it a bit grumpy ?

my point is : I'm a StarWars/warhammer/Amizia/Mutantsandmasterminds/etc GM since 94, and there is ONE principle common to ALL the games I ran :

Rule 1/1 : Use players characters to build or personnalize the adventures.... Official scenarios bought on some supplements are some much stronger when they are flavoured with elements in connection with the PC race, background, past accomplishment/failure, known npc ally/enemy, special equipment... By making it personal, the adventure becomes more immersive, the roleplay is increased, you may achieve some emotional during the climax of long games in a pure star wars style. Not cantina/mission/treasure but a real engagment, PC committed to the campaigns that way.

I really enjoy EOTE Motivation and obligation system for that because it enhance and gives a mechanic to my n°1 principle

Back to the fluff, Clone war is not a favour to PC... it's adventure ! it's Kit Fisto the nautolan who lives great adventures on Mon Calamari with Jar Jar and non aquatic PC (the anakin gang), Jar Jar Binks in the sewer of a dungeon while Padme is under deep diplomacy... And it's a lot of fun. Water is good for clones battling on Kamino base while Obiwan is under the flow fighting separatists submarines and anakin in the battle in space over Kamino

I like Grumpy. Grumpy gets things done.

I agree with your idea that adventures should be PC-centric. If the plot doesn't hinge on the PCs, why are we following them? There are many ways to do that with out constantly altering the setting to make one PC happy.

In Clone Wars there were water episodes like the one on Mon Calimari itself, but there were many more that were on spaceships, in cities, or in the middle of the desert. Many of the best episodes didn't involve water environments much at all.

It's called Star Wars not Water Wars. Water in space is called ice, although inside an actual star it just gets turned into more plasma.

you may give your mon cal an extra skill training relating something he did after his aquatic life (ie ackbar = tarkin slave)

Surprisingly, this came up at our table not too long ago.... and it hasn't affected one single player's decision. Some members of the group like to play against par, and this allows them a story element to do that with. I have 2 duros in one of my campaigns (I have 2 campaigns), even though we have never had space combat in that campaign, and neither are pilots. I also have an Ithorian marauder (EtoE), and that dude is one of those characters that the table just remembers 15 years down the road. One of the ones that make the Character Hall of Fame.

That's a testament to this excellent system that FFG has produced, where that minor bonus supplied by one's species, is more like whoop cream on the hot coco. It's there if you desire, but hot coco and marshmallows for everyone regardless.

Personally, this is the first game I've run, in a very long time, where my player's are not trying to min/max, or even care much about best stats for X. They all spend almost all starting XP on stats, but after that it's anyone's guess where they are going to go with the character. I think that only works if the whole table is of the same mentality, otherwise I think it would become a competition. It's either everyone does it, or everyone doesn't. Can't support that with anything other then my experience.

The write ups suit the species, and are accurate to the species' culture(s). That can't be helped! I applaud FFG for doing this and not making every species diverge to "fit" a mold. It's kinda awesome! It keeps a Mon Cal from becoming a Trando, etc... keeps them varied while sticking to lore. As some have pointed how Mon Cals aren't the most impressive base to start from; to me this makes their accomplishments all the more impressive when they are outside of their "comfort" zone.

Just my take on it.

The write ups suit the species, and are accurate to the species' culture(s). That can't be helped! I applaud FFG for doing this and not making every species diverge to "fit" a mold. It's kinda awesome! It keeps a Mon Cal from becoming a Trando, etc... keeps them varied while sticking to lore. As some have pointed how Mon Cals aren't the most impressive base to start from; to me this makes their accomplishments all the more impressive when they are outside of their "comfort" zone.

Just my take on it.

I'm glad your game is going so well. I think most folks on this forum are fans of the game, or we wouldn't be here writing posts.

I don't think anyone is arguing that species rules should do whatever it takes to be tactically valuable. I think we are looking for creative interpretations of existing fluff that keep a species from being purely sub-optimal. I think a species can be both rules great and fluff great. It's harder to do, but that's what we are paying for. Pretty much anyone can come up with crappy rules.

Take Mon Cal. Currently, they get Education as a skill. Why? Are all Mon Cal University grads, or are there plumber Mon Cal? What are the designers trying to say? I think they are trying to get at the idea that Mon Cal are smart and learn quickly. Wouldn't giving them a choice of any skill better convey that then Education (which is specific)? One pigeon holes Mon Cal and makes them less interesting, the other makes them more useful and thus more interesting.

to me this makes their accomplishments all the more impressive when they are outside of their "comfort" zone.

Just my take on it.

I agree with that, but I also think from a mechanical standpoint, a player who is sorta torn or not feeling super-drawn to any particular race will see what Mon Cal get, see what humans get, and probably make the no-brainer mechanically-superior choice of human.

to me this makes their accomplishments all the more impressive when they are outside of their "comfort" zone.

Just my take on it.

I agree with that, but I also think from a mechanical standpoint, a player who is sorta torn or not feeling super-drawn to any particular race will see what Mon Cal get, see what humans get, and probably make the no-brainer mechanically-superior choice of human.

I think Kshatriya has a good point. I believe the best way to describe the Mon Cal is "Underwhelming". I don't have as big of a problem with the Sullustans.

Ultimately, if they decide to change up Mon Cal in the final product that will be nice, if not, then I am OK with that too.

I have to agree the Mon Cal are a bit under powered as written. Giving them an additional 5 or 10 XP would make them better balanced and reflect all that education they are supposed to have

The Duros spear in Enter the Unknown. They are identical to how they spear in the AoR Beta, so it's unlikely they will be changing.

to me this makes their accomplishments all the more impressive when they are outside of their "comfort" zone.

Just my take on it.

I agree with that, but I also think from a mechanical standpoint, a player who is sorta torn or not feeling super-drawn to any particular race will see what Mon Cal get, see what humans get, and probably make the no-brainer mechanically-superior choice of human.

So? That's what the people casting for the movies do too.

I don't understand what you mean.

to me this makes their accomplishments all the more impressive when they are outside of their "comfort" zone.

Just my take on it.

I agree with that, but I also think from a mechanical standpoint, a player who is sorta torn or not feeling super-drawn to any particular race will see what Mon Cal get, see what humans get, and probably make the no-brainer mechanically-superior choice of human.

So? That's what the people casting for the movies do too.

I don't understand what you mean.

I'm just pointing out that most significant characters in the movies are humans, so I don't have any particular problem with the game encouraging human PCs.