I've just started reading the rules and I've yet to play, but the section on starship combat has me wondering how to simulate a dogfight. If one ship doesn't want to participate, it can just use its action as a maneuver to move away. The attacking ship can do the same, but then it can't attack. I hope I'm making sense.
Am I missing something here?
That's true, but fighters usually have a top speed 1 or 2 higher than your average freighter (or even gunship). Using Accelerate, the faster ships can easily catch up (or get away, as the case may be).
Also, in cases where the dogfight involves ships with multiple crew stations (i.e. not single-pilot fighters) it's very feasible for the pursuing ship to try and maintain the chase and still open fire; it's also feasible for the running ship to accelerate and run while firing in its aft arc if its weapons can fire that way.
Michael Vick could give you some pointers on how to get started.
It just seems silly to be able to "double move" given ships have a speed rating. If I'm at max speed, I'm at max speed....I shouldn't be able to move twice as fast all of a sudden. I may just impose a house rule that you may only spend one maneuver for movement each round.
This is where the Chase rules should come into play...
It just seems silly to be able to "double move" given ships have a speed rating. If I'm at max speed, I'm at max speed....I shouldn't be able to move twice as fast all of a sudden. I may just impose a house rule that you may only spend one maneuver for movement each round.
OK, unlike other systems that try and draw out the furball move for move EotE expands things out into a broader picture over a longer time. Zoom the camera of your imagination out a bit, and leave it running for a good 60 seconds per round. Try to think of each action or maneuver as its own little scene with in each turn and part of a much larger picture of the battle.
Also, just a note, EotE assumes that in combat a ship is almost never going to be fly in a straight line, even when it seems like it is
So to sort you out on this specifically...
The "double move" is a representation of the fighter being flown in a rather boring fashion, with the pilot focusing all their time and energy on getting from point a to point b. He's not flying in a straight line, you'll recall the defender gets to pick which defensive zones enemy shots land in so there's some jinking and dodging going on,just not much.
By comparison,a single move, and another action (let's go with evasive action) has the fighter instead making a serious effort to avoid enemy fire and flying in an unpredictable fashion. This means more jinks, and weaves and breaks, and loops, and rolls, and so the fighter is unable to cover as much straight line distance.
See both fighters are technically moving the same distance, its just that one is going more for straight line distance, and the other is taking the scenic route.
It just seems silly to be able to "double move" given ships have a speed rating. If I'm at max speed, I'm at max speed....I shouldn't be able to move twice as fast all of a sudden. I may just impose a house rule that you may only spend one maneuver for movement each round.
Yes it is silly. Once someone is trying to distance himself it goes to chase rules. You might want to look at my house rule thread.
I'm using a set of home-brew Dogfighting rules to simulate the to-and-fro of close quarter starship engagements.
They may be too mechanical for some, but they work for my own campaign.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCo9WoSsZs1tOEa45_sEGI5BtyfPt_lAhPfgohc_d_I/edit?usp=sharing
I'm using a set of home-brew Dogfighting rules to simulate the to-and-fro of close quarter starship engagements.
They may be too mechanical for some, but they work for my own campaign.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCo9WoSsZs1tOEa45_sEGI5BtyfPt_lAhPfgohc_d_I/edit?usp=sharing
I like what you have here, gives the pilot more things to do. Two concerns, however:
1. I'm not sure I like the upgrading dice mechanic for each point of speed, that's a bit excessive. But this parlays into point number 2....
2. Speed. In all the house rules for dogfighting and whatnot, nothing really takes into consideration Speed. There is no reason, whatsoever, to ever go anything but your max speed. This doesn't really translate well. Meaning under these rules, a pilot of a speed 3 YT is always looking at an upgraded 2 red dice before the pilot skill even factors in against a standard Tie.
Perhaps some maneuvers that can only be accomplished when a vehicle is traveling a certain speed. Because without it there is no reason to ever use the Accelerate/Decelerate and Punch It maneuvers. You should always and forever be at max speed. Meaning no matter what your piloting "skill" is, you will always be handicapped by the speed of your ship. Good piloting should be able to make up the difference somewhat, as something like a Hard Brake or Feint Overshoot should be able to shake a ship off your tail. Or perhaps making the "Get on His Tail" maneuver force the tailing pilot to match the speed of the tailed ship, or at the very least be +1/-1 relative speed.
Basically, if you solve for #2, you solve for #1 as well.
Just some thoughts.
I'm using a set of home-brew Dogfighting rules to simulate the to-and-fro of close quarter starship engagements.
They may be too mechanical for some, but they work for my own campaign.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCo9WoSsZs1tOEa45_sEGI5BtyfPt_lAhPfgohc_d_I/edit?usp=sharing
I like what you have here, gives the pilot more things to do. Two concerns, however:
1. I'm not sure I like the upgrading dice mechanic for each point of speed, that's a bit excessive. But this parlays into point number 2....
2. Speed. In all the house rules for dogfighting and whatnot, nothing really takes into consideration Speed. There is no reason, whatsoever, to ever go anything but your max speed. This doesn't really translate well. Meaning under these rules, a pilot of a speed 3 YT is always looking at an upgraded 2 red dice before the pilot skill even factors in against a standard Tie.
Perhaps some maneuvers that can only be accomplished when a vehicle is traveling a certain speed. Because without it there is no reason to ever use the Accelerate/Decelerate and Punch It maneuvers. You should always and forever be at max speed. Meaning no matter what your piloting "skill" is, you will always be handicapped by the speed of your ship. Good piloting should be able to make up the difference somewhat, as something like a Hard Brake or Feint Overshoot should be able to shake a ship off your tail. Or perhaps making the "Get on His Tail" maneuver force the tailing pilot to match the speed of the tailed ship, or at the very least be +1/-1 relative speed.
Basically, if you solve for #2, you solve for #1 as well.
Just some thoughts.
Many thanks for the feedback.
I don't think the way Speed has been implemented in the game makes much sense in general: What does taking a "Fly" action twice actually mean?!
Aaaaanyways, I did ponder some of the points you mentioned, specifically the "I'm travelling at Speed 5 and get behind a guy doing Speed 1: Shouldn't I match his speed so as not to overshoot him?" issue. I decided to ignore that wrinkle as things could get a bit sticky trying to integration of the existing Piloting manoeuvres, but your idea of adding a "Hard Break" might actually make that work 
The reason why I decided against any minimum speed requirements was to make the system as inclusive as possible: I rather give the ability to perform a specific manoeuvre to anyone, but potentially at a penalty, instead of saying "Sorry, you're in a Speed 3 Freighter, so no 'Gain the Advantage' for you."
I don't think the way Speed has been implemented in the game makes much sense in general: What does taking a "Fly" action twice actually mean?!
Speed's been implemented just fine, you're just having trouble understanding how it translates from numbers on paper into actual game mechanics.
"Flying twice" means you are focusing as much of your attention as possible on making your vehicle go in a specific direction. It doesn't mean your ship is literally traveling any faster or slower then a ship going the same speed but "Flying" only once, or even not at all.
Here, maybe this will help you wrap your head around it... Note that "space units" don't actually exist, and are here as a representation of how a fighter's speed translates into it's ability to move through space and how that relates to the game's mechanic.
2. Speed. In all the house rules for dogfighting and whatnot, nothing really takes into consideration Speed. There is no reason, whatsoever, to ever go anything but your max speed. This doesn't really translate well. Meaning under these rules, a pilot of a speed 3 YT is always looking at an upgraded 2 red dice before the pilot skill even factors in against a standard Tie.
Perhaps some maneuvers that can only be accomplished when a vehicle is traveling a certain speed. Because without it there is no reason to ever use the Accelerate/Decelerate and Punch It maneuvers. You should always and forever be at max speed. Meaning no matter what your piloting "skill" is, you will always be handicapped by the speed of your ship. Good piloting should be able to make up the difference somewhat, as something like a Hard Brake or Feint Overshoot should be able to shake a ship off your tail. Or perhaps making the "Get on His Tail" maneuver force the tailing pilot to match the speed of the tailed ship, or at the very least be +1/-1 relative speed.
Basically, if you solve for #2, you solve for #1 as well.
Just some thoughts.
I don't agree with you; there are many reasons not to go max speed. By your example everyone should drive their car at max speed as well, which is not the case. Even professional NASCAR drivers don't go max speed all the time while driving on a specific left turn only tracks.
2. Speed. In all the house rules for dogfighting and whatnot, nothing really takes into consideration Speed. There is no reason, whatsoever, to ever go anything but your max speed. This doesn't really translate well. Meaning under these rules, a pilot of a speed 3 YT is always looking at an upgraded 2 red dice before the pilot skill even factors in against a standard Tie.
Perhaps some maneuvers that can only be accomplished when a vehicle is traveling a certain speed. Because without it there is no reason to ever use the Accelerate/Decelerate and Punch It maneuvers. You should always and forever be at max speed. Meaning no matter what your piloting "skill" is, you will always be handicapped by the speed of your ship. Good piloting should be able to make up the difference somewhat, as something like a Hard Brake or Feint Overshoot should be able to shake a ship off your tail. Or perhaps making the "Get on His Tail" maneuver force the tailing pilot to match the speed of the tailed ship, or at the very least be +1/-1 relative speed.
Basically, if you solve for #2, you solve for #1 as well.
Just some thoughts.
I don't agree with you; there are many reasons not to go max speed. By your example everyone should drive their car at max speed as well, which is not the case. Even professional NASCAR drivers don't go max speed all the time while driving on a specific left turn only tracks.
Really?
What reasons, mechanically, would those be? What advantage do you mechanically gain by flying slower, in this system? Please, do tell.
My "example" you are referring to was based on the dogfighting houserules I quoted in that post. Bascially under those rules, the faster speed vehicle has no reason to go slower then max speed, because he has an easier time making checks against the slower vehicle, and the slower vehicle has upgraded difficulty checks against the faster. Yet we are somehow supposed to suspend disbelief that the Tie fighter on the 6 of the YT going Speed 5 and the YT going speed 3 never overshoots the slower moving vehicle?
And finally, NASCAR drivers **** near go max speed, its why the track is graded like it is. I actually want some dogfighting rules to take into account speed, because its hard to take a 90 degree corner at 70 mph in a car. You have to slow down for that. The same is true for dogfighting. You have to slow down to make those tight turns effective. But there is nothing in system that accounts for this.
These are great, thanks for sharing!
Also agree that speed is an issue. It seems to me that either party would have to match speeds, and a mismatch either way would give setback dice (one per difference). If you don't don't match speeds, and you're going faster, you're basically doing strafing runs, not dogfighting. This is pretty much what it looked like in E4 the first time they encountered the TIEs, the Falcon maybe did Evasive Maneuvers while the gunners tried to hold off the TIEs as they came in for strafing run after strafing run.
Some thoughts:
1) If your target is slower and you don't match speeds, you can not use Get On His Tail*, and every shot you make suffers from the speed difference. However, it's safer, because the enemy also suffers from the mismatch when shooting.
* alternative: you can, but you need the 2 successes, plus 1 Advantage per speed difference, and your speed is immediately cut to match (assuming your ship is capable, or incurring strain if necessary).
2) If your target is faster you can still use Get On His Tail as normal, though your attempt to do so will suffer from the speed difference in setback dice, as will any shots.
Speed: a ship that has a Speed rating may Accelerate/Decelerate by 1 as a maneuver with no cost. A ship may Punch It, taking Strain equal to speed difference - max(Handling, 0) (eg: a TIE could go from Speed 0 to 4 and only incur 1 Strain).
Ship Mod: Performance Thrusters
Description: Thrusters for abrupt changes in speed and direction
Base Modifiers: When using Punch It, increase Speed difference allowed without Strain by one, and reduces system strain threshold by one.
Modification Options: None
Hard Points Required: 1
Note: all ships with the Starfighter designation are assumed to have this already built in.
So after thinking about it for a while, this is what I've come up with as a slight modification to what HorusZA had initially in his dogfighting rules. This is my attempt to reconcile speed into the equations and actually make it matter. Some of my thoughts echo what whafrog has listed in the post above me (btw, I LOVE that Performance Thrusters mod. Totally stealing that.)
First of all, general rules:
Dogfighting is a maneuver, as outlined by HorusZA. It replaces Gain the Advantage, which is removed from the book and burned as it should be.
Speed: Ships going slower then their max speed handle better. To reflect this, a ship traveling at less than or half its maximum speed receives a boost die. A ship traveling at max speed receives a setback die. This bonus/penalty is in addition to the extra dice received for handling. This speed bonus only comes into play when rolling the Dogfighting maneuver.
Speed: Ships get the difficulty dice bonuses as outlined in the table. Ie, -2 or greater speed difference upgrades 2 dice, -1 speed difference upgrades 1 die, +1 or greater downgrades 1 die.
Accelerate/Decelerate is a maneuver as described on P.232
Fly/Drive is a maneuver that can only be attempted when not in a Dogfight.
Punch it as per P.233
Evasive Maneuvers and Stay on Target as listed in the book are disabled during a Dogfight (new rules below),
At the beginning of the pilot's turn, a Dogfighting roll is used whenever in a dogfight. This counts as a maneuver. The result of the check indicates the options available to the pilot as follows:
Get on his Tail: 2 Success. This counts as a maneuver. Tail target ship. Reduce speed to match speed of target. Pilot will tail target until the target successfully escapes, is destroyed, or pilot chooses another target to tail. Pilot can continue to tail ship as long as his speed matches target or is within +1/-1. Speed may be increased or decreased using the Accelerate/Decelerate or Punch it maneuver listed on P. 232-233. example: A Tie fighter going speed 5 rolls his Dogfighting roll against a YT-1300 which is going speed 3. The pilot of the Tie scores 3 successes! He chooses to use two of the successes to Tail the YT-1300. The Tie fighter hard brakes on the tail of the YT and is now going speed 3.If the ship that is executing Get on his Tail is traveling slower then target ship, Get on his Tail can still be executed. However, pilots should understand that if you don't speed up, it is easier to shake you off. Get on his Tail does not automatically increase speed to match, however. A pilot cannot attempt Get on his Tail if the target ship is already faster then +1 speed of the acting ship. If the pilot is already tailing a target when the speed of the tailing ship is increased, he retains the tail for the moment until he is shaken off.
Attack Actions (all Attack Actions count as an action):
I Have You Now - 1 success, requires that attacking ship be tailing the target. Attack the target.
Stay on Target - 2 successes, requires that attacking ship be tailing the target. Achieve lock. All combat checks receive a free upgrade while tailing the target. Any attacks targeting this ship from anyone but the tailed target receive a free upgrade as well. Tailing ship gets a free upgrade to escape. Lasts until tailed ship escapes or is destroyed.
Snapshot - 1 success. Does not require attacking ship be tailing the target. Attack the target. The difficulty of this attack is increased by one (ie Average (2P) to Hard (3p)).
Clear Shot - 2 successes. Does not require attacking ship to be tailing the target. Attack the target.
Escape Actions (all Escape Actions count as an action):
Shake Him Off - 2 Successes, lose tailing ship. Requires tailing ship to be traveling at same speed or -1 speed.
Hard Brake - 1 Success, lose tailing ship. Requires tailing ship to be traveling at same speed or +1 speed. Decrease speed of pilot's ship to 1, unless ship is already at 1 then it becomes 0. A ship traveling at 0 cannot Hard Brake.
Evasive Maneuvers - 0 Successes. Perform Evasive Maneuvers. All ships targeting this ship must upgrade the difficulty when attacking this ship. Any attacks from the ship performing Evasive Maneuvers must also upgrade the difficulty on any attacks.
Disengage - 1 Success, ship performing action must not be tailed. Leave the Dogfight.
Advantages/Threat (Do not count as Actions):
Good Attack Angle - 1 Advantage. Can only be taken when choosing an attack action. Choose which facing is targeted in the attack.
Gain the Advantage - 1 Advantage. Give a setback die to one opponent's next Dogfighting maneuver. Can be selected more then once. Each time it is selected it applies to a different opponent.
Counter Jinx - 1 Advantage. Ignore difficulty increases from Evasive Maneuvers.
Out of the Sun - 1 Threat. The enemy comes at you with the burning star behind him. Momentarily blinded, gain one setback die to the next attack.
Poor Anticipation - 1 Threat. You're guessing out there. The next ship to try an escape gains 1 boost die. Additionally, suffer 1 setback die on the next Dogfighting maneuver.
There, that's what I got. Anyone see anything I should add/delete/change?
EDIT: Gave some credit to whafrog for being awesome. Also, I'm wondering what I should use Triumph and Despair for. Considering with the upgrade die mechanic, there should be more of both hitting the table in any given dogfight. There should be something in these rules that can only be triggered on Triumph/Despair. I'm thinking something along the lines of a free action on Triumph or something, but I fear that might be too powerful. Thoughts? Suggestions always welcome.
Edited by ShadaiSo to kind of update this topic, since no one has seen fit to comment, I figured I'd post some updates.
So first of all, for Triumph/Despair:
Triumph and Despair act as they normally do on p236 of the Core rulebook. However, I've added one new Triumph and Despair that can be chosen.
Triumph: Suffer 1 System Strain. Gain an additional action that can only be used to attack. This attack action cannot be taken if an attack was already taken. If this is the first attack of the character's turn, it counts as the only attack.
Despair: 1 Opponent can perform the "Get on his Tail" maneuver as a free action. If the opponent choosen is already being tailed by the pilot of this ship (rolling the despair), that opponent can immedately perform the Shake Him Off maneuver as a free action instead. This can be choosen multiple times for each Despair rolled, each time applying to a new ship.
The reasoning behind this is for single man snubfighters. Because the Dogfighting action counts as a maneuver and MUST be performed at the beginning of a characters turn and counts as a maneuver, Pilots had a difficult choice. Use their action as a maneuver or shoot and be forced to spend 2 system strain to perform another maneuver. A single man snubfighter can perform two maneuvers then shoot, but it would cost them 2 system strain. So, in example, a pilot starts his turn in a Y-Wing, rolls for Dogfighting maneuver (1 maneuver), get 4 successes, choose the Get on His Tail maneuver and suffer two system strain to the ship, then use the 2 remaining successes to Shoot Clear Shot or I Have You Now. To me it felt that dogfighting in snubfighters would be more straining then in a light freighter, as the light freighter pilot usually only has to pilot and the other PCs do the shooting.
To balance this, the Triumph was added. This is simply creating a moment in the Maneuvers where the shot lines up perfectly, and the pilot has the wits and reactions to take the shot. This allowed snubfighters to take (in the example above) a maneuver, downgraded action to an additonal maneuver, suffer 1 strain on the Triumph to take the shot. I added the part about being the only attack to stop it being abused as being a potental source of two attacks a round.
The Despair was added mainly as a way to add a bit more excitement into the fight. In all the flipping and trying to track the other pilots, you might not be able to stay on his tail, or, might cut in front of a bad guy as you are dropping onto the tail of his buddy.
I also noticed something disturbing.
Just as inflicting strain damage on characters and npc's is a (sometimes) easier way to knock them out then attacking their wounds directly, the same thing is true for starships. What makes the starship combat worse in this way is there is no way to regain strain outside of a mechanics check. I still can inflict system strain on the vehicle with each threat rolled as often as threat hits the table. With all the flipping and straining ships in combat, starfighters in a dogfighting capacity have a limited "timeframe" they can effectively fight, depending on how many threat they roll. This is opposite of personal combat, as while I can still inflict strain per threat, the PCs can regain that strain by spending advantage. That option does not exist for starfighting combat.
Speaking of that mechanics check. It is a check that gets harder as the system suffers more and more strain. Makes sense. However, the amount of strain repaired does not in any way combat this potental loss. A successful check will only repair 1 point of damage, to either system strain or hull trama using the Damage Control action. This can only be attempted once per turn.
I think a small house rule is proper here. A small change to the Damage Control action would help negate this hole a bit. My thoughts are changing it from repairing one point of system strain, to repairing one point of system strain per success. Or one point of system strain per success divided by 2 (round up). I would leave the hull trama repair as it is, however. It should always only repair 1 point of Hull Trama damage per activation. This makes sense in a way, as the computers and systems that would be affected by system strain would be more accessable to the mechanic on the inside of the ship, whereas they can only do so much for HT damage when the ship is getting pounded on the outside.
So far I've been pretty happy the way the rules have worked. It really gives the Pilot of the ship something to think about, as he has to pay attention to his speed, his opponents speed, where he is, where the best escape route is, etc. If he's going faster then his opponent, he as an advantage, but it can easily slip away with Hard Brake. He has to think about maneuvers like Accelerate/Decelerate and Punch It more often. Additionally, angle deflector shields sees good use if a pilot can keep that opposing pilot tailed. It makes him feel more like he's flying the vehicle and doing impressive things with the points he's put into the Pilot (Space) skill.