Brass Knuckles are described as coming in numerous forms including gauntlets and, one might presume, armored/reinforced manipulators on droids. Shock Gloves are obviously hand coverings. Can both of these items be worn in a 'always ready' state while still allowing use of the hands for most other purposes (assuming, of course, that anything in the hand is first dropped before using the knuckles/gloves)?

Specifically, I have a droid PC that intends to have Brass Knuckles built-in to its hands. Would there be anything wrong with allowing these weapons to be used at-will without having to spend a Maneuver to ready them first?

Brass Knuckles are described as coming in numerous forms including gauntlets and, one might presume, armored/reinforced manipulators on droids. Shock Gloves are obviously hand coverings. Can both of these items be worn in a 'always ready' state while still allowing use of the hands for most other purposes (assuming, of course, that anything in the hand is first dropped before using the knuckles/gloves)?

Specifically, I have a droid PC that intends to have Brass Knuckles built-in to its hands. Would there be anything wrong with allowing these weapons to be used at-will without having to spend a Maneuver to ready them first?

Treat them like automatic weapons with selectors. It requires an incidental action to swap from safety to armed.

Brass Knuckles are described as coming in numerous forms including gauntlets and, one might presume, armored/reinforced manipulators on droids. Shock Gloves are obviously hand coverings. Can both of these items be worn in a 'always ready' state while still allowing use of the hands for most other purposes (assuming, of course, that anything in the hand is first dropped before using the knuckles/gloves)?

Specifically, I have a droid PC that intends to have Brass Knuckles built-in to its hands. Would there be anything wrong with allowing these weapons to be used at-will without having to spend a Maneuver to ready them first?

Treat them like automatic weapons with selectors. It requires an incidental action to swap from safety to armed.

An Incidental is really no time at all, but would it really require even that to 'arm' your hands in the case of armored/reinforced manipulators on a droid?

Depends...

For normal situations, walking around with brass knuckles is a little odd, but possible, though I'd treat it roughly the same as walking around with a palmed hold out blasters.

Stun gauntlets can be worn... depending on the style might attract less attention, BUT unless you want to accidentally give someone that famous joy-buzzer handshake from the Burton Batman flick, you'd have to leave them off and turn them on when people start throwing chairs, which I'd consider roughly on par with pulling a blaster.

In the case of the droid... I'd start by asking: Make and Model?

If you're going to build in a blunt heavy object into a droids hands some droids will draw less attention then others. A labor droid designed to move crates could certainly have heavy clamps or crush resistant reinforced hands that could count as brass knuckles and wouldn't draw any attention. A protocol droid with big clamps or heavy reinforced knuckles on the other hand... not so much. Similarly applying a stun hand is possible, but you couldn't leave it's capacitor charged all the time.

If you're concerned with inbalance there's two other options I can think of that could level it off:

1) cumbersome hands aren't good for certain tasks. A setback on using things that require fine manipulation or small hands (like a blaster with a trigger guard for examplle) would be justifiable.

2) look through the mods section, figure out the rough cost of something that adds the "quickdraw" talent and add that to the cost of the install. It makes it a little more of a choice, and explains it for both GM and player.

Personally, while I don't like it, if the player had his heart set on the idea I'd be willing to go ahead and allow it if they were willing to pay for it, accept an occasional setback, or otherwise make it clear they were mature enough not to want me to bend the rules on everything..

If it is just reinforced knuckles that don't retract...no...I was thinking more about the stun gloves. they would be obvious to anyone looking that they are reinforced.

I'd go with any weapon that normally needs a Maneuver to be drawn or activated would require a Maneuver to activate it unless they get a Talent or maybe is Jury-Rigged to eliminate that requirement, regardless of whither or not it's "built in". Basically any effect that would normally affect a PC shouldn't be hand waved unless they do the equivalent in the RAW to offset it.
Why? First, because there is no rule that says Droids get to break rules that effect other races. Second, because there is a mechanism within the RAW to do it (applying the Quick Draw Talent for sure and maybe Jury-Rigging). Lastly, fairness to all the players, because if any other non-droid player wanted to have such an effect they would have to have that Talent or whatever to get it.

For Brass knuckles built into a Droid arm, I would say if they don't want it to interfere with the normal operation of the limb it would have to "deploy" in some way (a Maneuver to draw which could be offset with Quick Draw) or be Jury-Rigged to not interfere. Either way a Talent would have to be used just like any other PC race. Same for Stun Gloves, they could be integrated into the arm but would still need a Maneuver to activate.

Further, even though these weapons are integrated into the arm they would still be vulnerable to a Disarm result, which could be explained as a critical part came loose or needs to be adjusted, rather than retrieved, taking as long and requiring whatever it normally would to be operational again.

Basically don't hand wave any rules just because they are Droids, re-skin the rule with a different explanation as to why it works the way it does.

If you're wearing reinforced gauntlets (whether shock gloves, some variety of brass knuckles, etc.) I wouldn't require a player to spend any action readying those weapons if he's wearing them all the time.

Of course, wearing reinforced (or electrified) combat gloves, or being a droid with razor blades for knuckles, might draw other sorts of complications depending on the situation.

I think Greg has the right of it.

You could argue the point, but why? And where does that line get drawn? If my droid has a rifle that's implanted into his arm, does he get to draw it as an incidental? He's got a launcher in his chest so is that incidental too? The repair kit is a built in diagnosis scanner, so it wouldn't require me to do anything, but allocate the RAM to that program. My droid fingers are all flame throwers, so I should get that damage x5 because I have five fingers. I have a targeting arrary computer so I should get to Aim as an incidental. My PC is actually Bender, so that hidden compartment mod is just a bottomless pit that I can pull Lucy Liu's head out of whenever.

The build you own droid thing isn't there so that you can build yourself outside RAI/RAW. A droid PC should be in most respects no different than a human PC. I think the only noted differences were no need for food and no Force.

You guys are missing the point.

Any weapon that must be drawn should use a maneuver, but someone wearing shock gloves can wear them and have them inert (turned off) while interacting normally with the environment. It shouldn't take a full maneuver to flip a switch for an item that is already in hand.

If it were a droid and the droid wants to have them "always active", I'd place restrictions on the droid, similar to the Barkeep in the Catina in Episode IV - basically, "we don't allow combat (or combat modified) droids in here". I'd say that most people in the Star Wars universe would be at least somewhat knowledgeable about droid makes/models. And most people would be able to tell, "hey, that Droid has weapons on its hand... I don't feel comfortable with that".

I'm not sure how you would handle a human that wants persistent brass knuckles. Maybe have them check their gear at the door, or put them away if they want to get in to certain locations. I don't think it's much to ask from an RP standpoint, that if someone's walking around with apparent weapons brandished, that it will draw unwanted attention. Any patron, civilian, law officer, etc. should easily be able to see there's a stranger with spikes coming out of his gloves and would typically believe that individual is out to cause trouble... It's realistic they'd call the local authorities, whether it's a sheriff, crime lord or the empire, I would think it realistic that spike hands would cause some type of negative attention.

With all that being said, I would most likely allow players to have an 'always ready state' with every item. But there would be consequences.. I'd let my player build 'always ready' brass knuckles into his Droid PC, but any customs agent is going to ask for papers, and possibly require a restraining clamp in civilized areas; this actually creates a maneuver in itself, but another party member would have to remove the clamp - so the droid player won't have to use a maneuver to activate its Brass Knuckles modification, but another party member will have to use a maneuver prepping the Droid for combat mode. In many cases, civilians would look at the droid with apprehension and fear curious to why a combat modified droid is walking around; some of these scared civilians may even contact the authorities, leading in to Confrontations.

This may be what the droid player is going for, and if that's the case, more power to him!

You guys are missing the point.

Any weapon that must be drawn should use a maneuver, but someone wearing shock gloves can wear them and have them inert (turned off) while interacting normally with the environment. It shouldn't take a full maneuver to flip a switch for an item that is already in hand.

I don't have the book in front of me but does it normally require a Maneuver to activate Shock Gloves? If so then it should apply as per RAW regardless of whither or not it's built in or worn.

The droid in question just wants the equivalent of reinforced gauntlets (a cosmetic variation of brass knuckles described in the text) to be built-in. Since a great many beings in Star Wars can walk around with gauntlets on without drawing undue attention - these are NOT spiked/bladed accessories, so similarly reinforced manipulators on a droid are unlikely to scream 'walking death machine' to me.

I'm also not trying to give the droid any special advantages over others. His reinforced manipulators would be exactly like a human (or other species) wearing reinforced gauntlets. They should be wearable for most activities save for those requiring the finest of manipulation.

The droid in question just wants the equivalent of reinforced gauntlets (a cosmetic variation of brass knuckles described in the text) to be built-in. Since a great many beings in Star Wars can walk around with gauntlets on without drawing undue attention - these are NOT spiked/bladed accessories, so similarly reinforced manipulators on a droid are unlikely to scream 'walking death machine' to me.

I agree that it's unlikely to be something overt though I may, if it made sense, have it affect some social rolls. In any case they can't get around the draw maneuver without the Quick Draw talent or some other cost (not just cash). I'd still require either a Maneuver as a deploy kind of thing, or Jury-Rigged allowing them to skip the draw maneuver and to not interfere with using the "hand", or skip the draw but have a permanent setback die when using that "hand". No free rides.

The droid in question just wants the equivalent of reinforced gauntlets (a cosmetic variation of brass knuckles described in the text) to be built-in. Since a great many beings in Star Wars can walk around with gauntlets on without drawing undue attention - these are NOT spiked/bladed accessories, so similarly reinforced manipulators on a droid are unlikely to scream 'walking death machine' to me.

I see your logic here. But I am curious to what beings walked around with combat modified gauntlets that are always brandished without really attracting attention. We could take a look at beings that have combat modified gauntlets that have require activation, but I'm not sure of many that had combat gauntlets that were persistently in on mode. I think this becomes difficult if you've got a guy who hides brass knuckles under his gloves... I'm not sure how to deal with that and maybe thats where the grey area comes in.

With droids, we already know there's a little bit of scrutiny and distrust toward them as shown in the Catina scene in Epidsode IV. I'm not exactly sure what the general level understanding of droid anatomy by common-folk in Star Wars ranges. But I'm not sure where the line is drawn on what would be considered non-combat 'looking' by common-folk would be. Perhaps that's up to the GM; I think customs officers would at least be able to see combat modifications to a droid, but really that's your call. I mean, its realistic metal so being punched by metal is going to hurt.. If you want it to hurt more, my assumption would be, it would have to be an aggressive look to it, or else it really wouldn't have a benefit.

Just as an example, if the droid is going to have brass knuckles as an persistent enhancement, what's your call on the level of modification that the droid would have to do (from a physical standpoint) to do additional damage? A droid is metal already, to being hit my a metal fist, if I were the GM, would not differ much from being him with a metal fist with slightly raised knuckles. I'd personally require some level of physical modification that would make sense to inflict more damage, and use that physical change as a means to at least add some type of counter, at least minimally, to the removal of not having to ready the weapon using a maneuver. Maybe even creating a Jury-Rigged rule for this Droid alone and have the modification to the droid be allowed (sort of like a quick draw talent). It's obviously up to you and your players how you want to trade-off on the modification, I'm just trying to provide some ideas

The droid in question just wants the equivalent of reinforced gauntlets (a cosmetic variation of brass knuckles described in the text) to be built-in. Since a great many beings in Star Wars can walk around with gauntlets on without drawing undue attention - these are NOT spiked/bladed accessories, so similarly reinforced manipulators on a droid are unlikely to scream 'walking death machine' to me.

I agree that it's unlikely to be something overt though I may, if it made sense, have it affect some social rolls. In any case they can't get around the draw maneuver without the Quick Draw talent or some other cost (not just cash). I'd still require either a Maneuver as a deploy kind of thing, or Jury-Rigged allowing them to skip the draw maneuver and to not interfere with using the "hand", or skip the draw but have a permanent setback die when using that "hand". No free rides.

A human bounty hunter is wearing reinforced gauntlets (brass knuckles) and carrying a blaster rifle. An opponent jumps him and he is now in melee (Engaged). The bounty hunter drops the rifle (Incidental) and swings his fist (Action). Are you suggesting the bounty hunter has to spend a Maneuver to 'draw' the gauntlets before making the attack or else his attack doesn't benefit from them?

The droid in question just wants the equivalent of reinforced gauntlets (a cosmetic variation of brass knuckles described in the text) to be built-in. Since a great many beings in Star Wars can walk around with gauntlets on without drawing undue attention - these are NOT spiked/bladed accessories, so similarly reinforced manipulators on a droid are unlikely to scream 'walking death machine' to me.

I see your logic here. But I am curious to what beings walked around with combat modified gauntlets that are always brandished without really attracting attention. We could take a look at beings that have combat modified gauntlets that have require activation, but I'm not sure of many that had combat gauntlets that were persistently in on mode. I think this becomes difficult if you've got a guy who hides brass knuckles under his gloves... I'm not sure how to deal with that and maybe thats where the grey area comes in.

With droids, we already know there's a little bit of scrutiny and distrust toward them as shown in the Catina scene in Epidsode IV. I'm not exactly sure what the general level understanding of droid anatomy by common-folk in Star Wars ranges. But I'm not sure where the line is drawn on what would be considered non-combat 'looking' by common-folk would be. Perhaps that's up to the GM; I think customs officers would at least be able to see combat modifications to a droid, but really that's your call. I mean, its realistic metal so being punched by metal is going to hurt.. If you want it to hurt more, my assumption would be, it would have to be an aggressive look to it, or else it really wouldn't have a benefit.

Just as an example, if the droid is going to have brass knuckles as an persistent enhancement, what's your call on the level of modification that the droid would have to do (from a physical standpoint) to do additional damage? A droid is metal already, to being hit my a metal fist, if I were the GM, would not differ much from being him with a metal fist with slightly raised knuckles. I'd personally require some level of physical modification that would make sense to inflict more damage, and use that physical change as a means to at least add some type of counter, at least minimally, to the removal of not having to ready the weapon using a maneuver. Maybe even creating a Jury-Rigged rule for this Droid alone and have the modification to the droid be allowed (sort of like a quick draw talent). It's obviously up to you and your players how you want to trade-off on the modification, I'm just trying to provide some ideas

What you call "scrutiny and distrust" is really more simple discrimination. Droid are actually likely to be ignored and are often subject to far less scrutiny that many beings.

As for your second point, consider that right now the metal fists of a droid do not do any more damage than the flesh of a human fist. With this in mind, it could be as simple as replacing the standard lightweight plastic manipulators with heavier and stronger metal ones. Considering that having permanent brass knuckles on both hands will constantly cost the droid 2 Encumbrance, the option of heavier materials is one way of looking at it.

I just use common sense. Built in does not mean invisible. A droid with built in armour looks armoured. A droid with built in brass knuckles looks like he has built in brass knuckles. As far as using them, they are there and can be used. You may need to drop anything you are holding in order to make the fist to use them, but it shouldn't take much to do so. This does not mean it will be true for all built in weapons. Some may need to be brought to bear in some fashion. Unless they are built to be concealed, though, they are all obvious to everyone, whether it is their casing or whatever.

I just use common sense. Built in does not mean invisible. A droid with built in armour looks armoured. A droid with built in brass knuckles looks like he has built in brass knuckles. As far as using them, they are there and can be used. You may need to drop anything you are holding in order to make the fist to use them, but it shouldn't take much to do so. This does not mean it will be true for all built in weapons. Some may need to be brought to bear in some fashion. Unless they are built to be concealed, though, they are all obvious to everyone, whether it is their casing or whatever.

The book does state that a droid purchasing armor can describe it as a "reinforced outer covering" which isn't necessarily going to be viewed the same as wearing armor. A reinforced outer covering can be useful protection from numerous hazardous activities a labor droid might engage in and doesn't necessarily say that the droid is built to resist being shot by blasters. Likewise reinforced manipulators are more likely going to suggest that the droid does heavy work, rather than announce that it's built to punch things.

The book does state that a droid purchasing armor can describe it as a "reinforced outer covering" which isn't necessarily going to be viewed the same as wearing armor. A reinforced outer covering can be useful protection from numerous hazardous activities a labor droid might engage in and doesn't necessarily say that the droid is built to resist being shot by blasters. Likewise reinforced manipulators are more likely going to suggest that the droid does heavy work, rather than announce that it's built to punch things.

Reconcile it with yourself any way you want to. I'm not telling you how to do it, just the way I view it. One man's "reinforced outer covering" is another man's "armoured covering". To me, as I said, built in is not invisible or concealed. I will agree that that built in brass knuckles are always on, though.

A human bounty hunter is wearing reinforced gauntlets (brass knuckles) and carrying a blaster rifle. An opponent jumps him and he is now in melee (Engaged). The bounty hunter drops the rifle (Incidental) and swings his fist (Action). Are you suggesting the bounty hunter has to spend a Maneuver to 'draw' the gauntlets before making the attack or else his attack doesn't benefit from them?

Nope, I'm saying that if there is a rule that says you must Draw or otherwise activate a weapon that the same rule applies for all PCs, even Droids with built in ones. All rules should apply equally. If, and I don't have the book in front of me, there is no requirement to draw or activate then there's nothing to apply.

Honestly, a perception check could be used if someone is skeptical of the droid's reinforced fists, but it's likely not noticeable enough for the Droid to walk in and the Bartender to immediately scream across the room, "Oh my force, it's a combat droid!" Maybe if the guy hates droids, he'll be keenly inspecting the thing, but it's not like the droid is waving blasters around.

That said, I've always been of the mindset that the mechanical benefit of going for brawling weapons over other melee weapons is that they take no time to ready and allow the user to be flexible in combat, despite doing less damage. I'm not going to treat a player with brass knuckles as if he's walking around with swords, because then he may as well just be using swords.

I agree that it's unlikely to be something overt though I may, if it made sense, have it affect some social rolls. In any case they can't get around the draw maneuver without the Quick Draw talent or some other cost (not just cash). I'd still require either a Maneuver as a deploy kind of thing, or Jury-Rigged allowing them to skip the draw maneuver and to not interfere with using the "hand", or skip the draw but have a permanent setback die when using that "hand". No free rides.

I wouldn't require anyone who already have a weapon readied to spend a maneuver to "draw" it. That doesn't really make sense to me.

If you walk around with a blaster drawn, the blaster is good to go. You don't have to "draw" it again. If you walk around with brass knuckles equipped, you don't have to "draw" them. They are already good to go.

I wouldn't require anyone who already have a weapon readied to spend a maneuver to "draw" it. That doesn't really make sense to me.

If you walk around with a blaster drawn, the blaster is good to go. You don't have to "draw" it again. If you walk around with brass knuckles equipped, you don't have to "draw" them. They are already good to go.

I agree that if a PC has a drawn weapon out all of the time then there is no need to "Draw" it again before using it. However a PC with a drawn weapon all the time cannot get a free ride on the other effects of always having that weapon out. If a Human PC wears Brass Knuckles or Armored Gauntlets he will suffer penalties to Social and posably manipulation rolls in situations where having your hands full (BKs) and/or wearing bulky combat gauntlets to say a party or when attempting to pass through a security check. These weapons are not naturally inconspicuous or unobtrusive. Also gauntlets that are bulky enough to be considered weapons are not just armor any more, they are separate items with their own encumbrance etc..

The same effects, penalties, and requirement must apply to all PCs equally, just because you want to build them in to a Droid's arm doesn't make them invisible or keep them from getting in the way.

So to sum it up: Any effect, penalty, or requirement that would normally affect a PC also affects Droid PCs even if they build it into their bodies (that includes Encumbrance). If you want to eliminate an effect, penalty, or requirement you must follow the same rules as any other PC race. No free passes.

Honestly, a perception check could be used if someone is skeptical of the droid's reinforced fists, but it's likely not noticeable enough for the Droid to walk in and the Bartender to immediately scream across the room, "Oh my force, it's a combat droid!" Maybe if the guy hates droids, he'll be keenly inspecting the thing, but it's not like the droid is waving blasters around.

That said, I've always been of the mindset that the mechanical benefit of going for brawling weapons over other melee weapons is that they take no time to ready and allow the user to be flexible in combat, despite doing less damage. I'm not going to treat a player with brass knuckles as if he's walking around with swords, because then he may as well just be using swords.

I think everyone has provided logical arguments for both the ability of a PC to make the modification and the not. I personally, believe that this should be allowed, however I think in this game, there needs to be a creative balance. If a weapon is constantly brandished, I wouldn't require a maneuver to ready a weapon - I think that's a little redundant and the PCs will constantly question why they've got to 'ready' an already 'readied' weapon. But if my group wants to go around brandishing their weapons in public, I'd have social drawbacks - I get that blasters and swords are more reasonably noticed than brass knuckles, but I'd still register some type of draw back because, I'd see a problem with constantly 'concealed' constantly 'active' weapons without taking something in return (like unspoken destiny points )

I'd make the argument, as a GM, that the average person is bound to notice a droid with combat enhancements. I think the reinforced armor argument is a good one on the part of the player, but I would declare that a regular individual would be able to discern a droid modified for combat and a droid modified for work. Reinforced 'work' armor is not going to protect a droid as reinforced 'combat' armor would and the same would be true for the droid's hands. I would use the argument that if droids are as common as they are in the Star Wars universe, and there's already a prejudice against them, combat modified droids would bring more undue attention to them. I think I would use the argument that, protection wise, there would be a noticeable physical difference between a combat ready marine, a police officer, and a guy that's wearing a lot of clothing because he works on a fishing boat or warehouse. With the commonality of droids, I'd assume that the same logic would apply to them - if a droid has reinforced armor for heavy lifting, it will look as such. If a droid has reinforced armor for combat, it will look as such. I mean work machinery and combat machinery in looks vastly different...

With all that being said, I'd take these two concepts and explain that position to my Droid PC, and I would allow him to make the modification. However, I would let him know there will be repercussions - if he wants persistent brass knuckles welded on to his hand, but not to be concealed, I'd let him know there would be social repercussions and it would draw unwanted attention. For instance, each time the droid would try to pass through customs, the PC would have to roll a Deceit Check to explain what the illegal modifications are for. If the check fails, the droid will have to have a restraining clamp fitted, which would cost a maneuver from another PC to remove the clamp, effectively adding a balance to the enhancement.

If the droid wants to mask, or conceal the enhancement, I'd modify Jury Rigged for situation allowing it to be utilized on the brass knuckles, or if jury rigged isn't available, I'd use a Hard or higher mechanics check (whatever fits) with a die or two upgraded to Challenge dice due to "Custom modifications without Blueprints" (or something like that) to attempt to fit the weapons on the droid before each session. At least, this allows some tradeoff for bending the rules in favor for the PC.