After reading alot of posts I got thinking, (yes I know, gets me into alot trouble alot ) is X-Wing really a mini game or a card/pieces game?

What first got me thinking was, I guess I got use to 40K and needing a codex or army book. Obviously you can't do that with X-Wing since there is so little to fill in a book. But now with more and more coming out, we could have mini dexes with stats for all the cards and tokens pretty soon hopefully.

I also have been reading about people wanting extra cards and tokens for their ships now.

So this is what got me to thinking now, is X-Wing really about the minis or about the Cards and ship pieces that come with it? Why are you collecting for X-Wing now?

At first I thought it was the minis, now that I am playing and understanding it more, I believe it's really the cards and pieces that are the most important part of the game playing.

It's a catch 22 really. Can't play without the minis, but then again, really can't play without the cards and tokens either.

The minis got me into the X-Wing hobby, it seems now it's the cards and tokens that keep me collecting now. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten a X-Wing and Tie-Fighter just for those tokens and cards. I want at least one of everything, but it seems it comes down to the cards/tokens of what multiple ships I will be buying for play reasons.

Sorry for babbling.

TL;DR Why are you collecting X-Wing now? More for the ship minis or the cards and tokens?

Don't apologise for "babbling" I have these thoughts regularly but usually don't have the courage to share them with like-minded individuals at all.

Well, my approach is the following: I consider X-wing to be a miniatures game which has cards as a part of it's game-engine, much like Warmachine or Freebooters Fate. Most of the games my friends and I play fall into the "beer-and-pretzel-game" category in that they are mostly about having fun rather then winning. As such we make little use of the upgrades that most people here think are an essential part of the game. We play more or less in fluff; meaning we give an Y-wing a free ion-canon since it's what they would have in the movies, no-one would be saying: oops the Imperials field less ships then we do; let's get the turret off the ship...

Me being not competitive in any way is also the most important reason why I do not enter in tournaments, they most often get too tense for my liking. Yet the pilot cards/upgrade cards system makes X-wing an excellent tournament game: people can tweak their force indefinitely to get the most out of it and therefore try and get the high-ground before even encountering an opponent in the flesh. Nothing wrong with that it's part of the game and as such fun, it stops being fun when people are getting cheesy.

The game to me has it's biggest attraction in being set against the background of my all-time favourite Sci-Fi movies. Nothing can beat the moments where you go all "geeky" and start quoting lines like: "Stay on target, STAY on target" and forget your target-lock all together. I even had a moment in which I had the "satellite" scenario out of the rulebook in my pocket with my TIE advanced having caught the satellite with everything clear to go back to my deployment zone and then miscalculating my movement and having it fly off the opposite board edge thus yielding victory to my opponent, yet we laughed our behinds off: "I find your lack of feel- for-direction disturbing!"

Having said all this: I think I am not collecting the game at all for the models or even the cards but more to be able to play a game in a great background which gives you epic movie-moments with all players quoting away the more the amber liquids flow!

I am inclined to collect lots of ships, as a side effect I end up with lots of cards

I have not run into the situation yet where I felt the need to buy more ships just for the cards, but I can definitely see where that might occasionally be an issue for tournament players

Fortunately the game is also not really in a place where you need lots of cards to make a competitive build. You might need more cards to build the squadrons you want to use sometimes, or to have the kinds of options you want, but for tournament play (which is really the only situation where you can't just print cards as needed) you are not crippled just because you don't own 40 ships and their cards.

now that you mention it a physical book or codex with all the available cards, ships and rules would be nice.. not really needed i guess though. i would pick one up for sure as i like to collect stuff for the few games i do play.

now that you mention it a physical book or codex with all the available cards, ships and rules would be nice..

I vote for an app.

I'm in straetski's shoes. I'm new to the game, so right now I'm collecting ships. Specifically several from both factions. That way friends (who don't have any) and I can enjoy a fun filled beer n pretzels evening. I'm not opposed to a tournament, but suspect when I do attend one, I'll make due with what I have. While there's some general competitive build theories, there certainly isn't one end all be all list. Plus, I don't want to show up to the prom in the same dress as the popular girl, so am fine with sweats and a t-shirt.

It does bother me that I have to re-buy miniatures I already have if I want more ways to use them, but I think the card system is superior in a lot of way to the codex system. The miniatures are just models, that's it. The cards are where the actual game is. This is annoying when you're trying to get a complete set, but it's great when it comes to balance and errata and the future.

At any point they could decide to release a Lambda-shuttle card with a rebel spy pilot, or a new upgrade card to shore up the weakness of a certain ship. They don't have to wait until next time they release a rule book to expand or fix the game (obviously individual cards and stuff can still have their own balance issues they have to errata, but the overall game is much more flexible at any given time).

I got into the game for the gameplay, not the miniatures. It's just a bonus that the miniatures look so cool.

But then I started giving them custom paint jobs and modding them, and building terrain and stuff... making it pretty clear that it's a miniatures game as much as it's a board game or card game or dice game or whatever.

I don't know that I'll ever use 3 B-Wings or 2 HWK-290s, but I bought at least one of each of those primarily to paint them.

While a great game, and one i`ve spent far too much money on.. I dont see it as a true miniatures game, Simply because you can play the game without the mini, The same goes`s for Attack Wing, Yes both games come with playing pieces in the expansions but if you replaced those with counters like the original Wings of War game it would make no difference to the game play.

and just to add that the reason i`m collecting is that X-wing is the Star wars game i have always wanted and it wouldn`t have mattered if they had just used counters, it is still a great game

While a great game, and one i`ve spent far too much money on.. I dont see it as a true miniatures game, Simply because you can play the game without the mini, The same goes`s for Attack Wing, Yes both games come with playing pieces in the expansions but if you replaced those with counters like the original Wings of War game it would make no difference to the game play.

and just to add that the reason i`m collecting is that X-wing is the Star wars game i have always wanted and it wouldn`t have mattered if they had just used counters, it is still a great game

That is true of most miniature games, the fact you can play Malifaux, Warhammer 40k or Warma-horde on Vassal proves it.

After reading alot of posts I got thinking, (yes I know, gets me into alot trouble alot ) is X-Wing really a mini game or a card/pieces game?

....

It's a catch 22 really. Can't play without the minis, but then again, really can't play without the cards and tokens either.

.....

TL;DR Why are you collecting X-Wing now? More for the ship minis or the cards and tokens?

If you want brutal honesty X-Wing is "just" a card/piece game which happens to include pretty models as a selling aid. I mean really, if it wasn't for a line in the rules saying you MUST have a mini on its base to play, it would be so much easier to play the game if you did NOT have the miniatures in the way. Oh sure, they do help with "visual immersion" but the little cardboard ship tokens actually tell you more information provided the model isn't covering it up. As the game is done it is extremely easy to play without the minis but I'll tell you it is IMPOSSIBLE to play this game without the cards/tokens/templates.

Now why do I collect X-Wing? Here it really comes down to the models although I want some options when it comes to the actual game side of things. Would I buy it without the minis? Almost certainly not or at least not at anywhere near the price point FFG is getting for them now.

Now would anyone really care to guess what the break down of the "cost" of a basic expansion pack would be? Assuming the cost is split evenly into the price so a $15 pack actually cost that much (we know it doesn't) how much of that goes towards the play pieces and cards, how much goes to toward the mini and pegs, and how much into packaging for either set? I suspect that the mini contributes 70% or more to the cost of the expansion pack so without those the game could be much less expensive to own and expand in.

After reading alot of posts I got thinking, (yes I know, gets me into alot trouble alot ) is X-Wing really a mini game or a card/pieces game?

....

It's a catch 22 really. Can't play without the minis, but then again, really can't play without the cards and tokens either.

.....

TL;DR Why are you collecting X-Wing now? More for the ship minis or the cards and tokens?

If you want brutal honesty X-Wing is "just" a card/piece game which happens to include pretty models as a selling aid. I mean really, if it wasn't for a line in the rules saying you MUST have a mini on its base to play, it would be so much easier to play the game if you did NOT have the miniatures in the way. Oh sure, they do help with "visual immersion" but the little cardboard ship tokens actually tell you more information provided the model isn't covering it up. As the game is done it is extremely easy to play without the minis but I'll tell you it is IMPOSSIBLE to play this game without the cards/tokens/templates.

Now why do I collect X-Wing? Here it really comes down to the models although I want some options when it comes to the actual game side of things. Would I buy it without the minis? Almost certainly not or at least not at anywhere near the price point FFG is getting for them now.

Now would anyone really care to guess what the break down of the "cost" of a basic expansion pack would be? Assuming the cost is split evenly into the price so a $15 pack actually cost that much (we know it doesn't) how much of that goes towards the play pieces and cards, how much goes to toward the mini and pegs, and how much into packaging for either set? I suspect that the mini contributes 70% or more to the cost of the expansion pack so without those the game could be much less expensive to own and expand in.

Just out of curiosity... And I ask this because I play A LOT of miniatures games (and have for over 35 years)... but just WHAT do miniatures ACTUALLY DO in a miniatures game beside provide a 3D represention of whatever it is they represent? I cannot think of any miniatures game where a #d miniature could not be replaced by a 2D counter and still play just the same. The actual game data is kept "somewhere", whether that is in a codex, a rule book, written in the specific scenario rules, stored in a computer or printed on the counter itself (or on a disk like the Heroclix stuff). Ultimately, though, the miniature just provides pleasant visual representation of the subject and situation at hand. Many games come with counters that players can replace with miniatures when they can.

What then, DOES make a "miniatures game", a miniatures game? What makes a "card game" a card game? Is there a diference between a "card game" and a game with cards? Monopoly is a "board game" that utilizes "miniatures" but IS NOT a miniatures game (IMO) but why not? What about RISK?

Well... I have just written and erased 4 versions of my answers to those "simple questions"; perhaps the question is not so simple as it appears, hmmmmnnn... Some games are clearly hybrids or blur the lines of distinction. Here follows my humble opinions:

X-Wing Miniatures Game IS a "miniatures game" (and not just because it says so in the name ), because you cannot play the game without the non-card pieces (ex. maneuver dials, templates and range sticks)

Risk IS NOT a "miniatures game".

Wings of War/Glory is a mostly a card game (nearly everything is performed with cards, not even dice are used) but I play it for the miniatures.

Heroclix is not really a miniatures game (at least it does not feel like one to me).

Monopoly is clearly NOT a miniatures game.

Anyway, to answer the rest of your question... I initially got into X-wing for the miniatures. I love the movies and characters but think a lot of the Star Wars 'verse is a bit "hinkey". What I really love is the simplicity of the basic game engine, the "flight path" system. Not really into the meta of the game and I don't really care abit about "competative lists" and tournaments. I play because it lets me exercise my childhood fantasies of flying a starfighter and battling evil in an epic struggle.

Chris

I bought in because of the wonderful miniatures that came with the game. But once I played, I was hooked. I collected enough ships to reasonably be able to cover 100 pt games. In doing so, I've found I haven't run out of cards yet. And that has become as important as having enough ships of a certain type.

I'm also planning on using the ships with Edge of the Empore and Age of Rebellikn. But that was totally an afterthought to playing X-Wing.

I think if you used the definition that you have to have the miniatures to play and can't use counters (which I think is incorrect).. Then the only games that would count would be games that use True Line Of Sight. As in that situation you would have to have the model to measure LoS from...

But I don't think that is a good definition.

I think more useful is to make a list of things most Miniature games, Card Games, Board Games have in common. Games get classified by which of these lists it has most in common with. Now I would definitely say X-Wing comes closer to a Miniature game than most other catagories.

• You collect models,
• You have no rigid playing board (with squares/areas),
• You make a list to a point value
• The way timing works has more in common with most Miniature games than with something like magic.
• You use a measure to make moves. etc....
• There is no hand of cards
• Models have a Stat block.

What then, DOES make a "miniatures game", a miniatures game?

Well to me, and I consider myself more of a painter and collector then actual gamer, the biggest fun of playing a miniature wargame is the aesthetics. I paint my mini's specially my historicals and I love to see them march a decently laid out field of battle and possibly conquer the opposition.

Like this:

One game I've played for a LONG time (and in fact find far superior to Attack Wing in almost every conceivable aspect) is the Star Trek Starship Tactical Combat Simulator. I really think it's about the best blend of strategy and detail you could get in a game involving massive starships which have a dozen weapon systems and many subsystems that you must balance.

But it didn't need miniatures for play. It used carboard tokens on a hex map, and while they did sell minis for it, you weren't required to use them.

X-wing is similar. You could play the game just as easily with cardboard tokens and still have an immersive and fun experience. Now, I'm NOT about to trade in my minis. They're simply too cool to get rid of in favor of tokens. But I don't actually need them.

I'm gonna go with both and I think that's why I love it. Have always wanted to get into WH and 40K but will never have the time or money to really dive into it. X-Wing eliminates painting and assembling as requirements which lets me appreciate the miniatures and the cards and tokens. Ultimately I think that any game can be played with cards and tokens if boiled down, but in boiling down you lose important substance and physical presence, that physical presence being one of many ways that board and card and miniature and social games are able to surpass video games.

After reading alot of posts I got thinking, (yes I know, gets me into alot trouble alot ) is X-Wing really a mini game or a card/pieces game?

It's a Star Wars dogfighting game? Not sure we need to classify it further.

Was my first response. Then I read on!

It was the awesome models that got me into the game, but now that all the ships from the movies are out it'll be new cards/pilots that keep things interesting. That said; the cards only exist to let you play with the miniatures...

...IT WAS STAR WARS!!!!!!!! Nuff said!

The game mechanics, the mini's and the cards make the game for me, along with my opponents in the LGS.

I, personally am not bothered about classifying games into neat little genre's as long as it is a good game. I have abandoned games due to naff mini's or poor rules but this is not the case with X-wing.

LMG

Living Minatures Game

I think the business model most closely relates itself to the LCG models (Netrunner, Star Wars LCG) that are becoming increasingly popular. But instead of cards, we're using minis and much smaller "decks."

I don't think we'll ever see codexes or giant rulebooks as the whole purpose of these games it to continue releasing expansions to push the metagame forward and continue to evolve it. Of course the game plays more like a minatures game than a card game, but the design choices and expansions are more closely related to the LCG's. I think it's a smart move and one of the main reasons I got so deeply into this game.

I think the closest we'll see to a 'codex' for this game is going to be the new "Imperial Aces"-style expansions that release the same units that we already have using new paint schemes and new pilots and a bunch of reused upgrades/abilities/weapons that were previously limited to one or two expansions.

I think if you used the definition that you have to have the miniatures to play and can't use counters (which I think is incorrect).. Then the only games that would count would be games that use True Line Of Sight. As in that situation you would have to have the model to measure LoS from...

But I don't think that is a good definition.

I think more useful is to make a list of things most Miniature games, Card Games, Board Games have in common. Games get classified by which of these lists it has most in common with. Now I would definitely say X-Wing comes closer to a Miniature game than most other catagories.

• You collect models,
• You have no rigid playing board (with squares/areas),
• You make a list to a point value
• The way timing works has more in common with most Miniature games than with something like magic.
• You use a measure to make moves. etc....
• There is no hand of cards
• Models have a Stat block.

RM,

I agree with most of what you said as that ran ver similar to the arguments I was trying to make before I gav e up in frustration. One thing I would have to disagree with is your comment about "points lists". As I mentioned in my previous post, I have been a miniatures gamer for over 35 years. In my experience, games with "Army Lists", "Points Value" and intended for "competitive/tournament play" are in the vast minority. I think Wargames Research Group (WRG) was one of the first to really build their games around "points" and "army lists" or even address the possibility of a wargame being competitive or "fair" as most historical gamers attempted to recreate a historical battle (or historical possibility) and real, historical conflict is anything but "fair" (in fact, if you have a "fair" fight, at least one commander has screwed up). Since that time (late 1970s), more and more games have included points systems and generic scenarios, especially the Sci-Fi/Fantasy games as they were not limited to the historical record. The idea of competitive "tournaments" was pretty much anethema to "old school wargamers" but begain to be introduced in Great Britain and has slowly gained popularity since the 1980s, untill today, when most "new" gamers consider this to be the norm. Wargaming has become more "mainstream" but at a cost. The quality of games has improved but so has the "trendiness", competitive (vs cooperative) nature of games/gamers, comercialism and start-up cost of getting into the hobby. Certain, popular wargames (inc Warhammer, Flames of War, etc...) now dominate their particular games niche and have introduced the concepts of "selecting and army" and building a battle group by collecting and painting specific miniatures to a set point value. "Old School" wargamers would never have considered collecting only ONE ary or specific unit (who only collects/plays with Confederate soldiers or Royalists or WWII Germans or Ancient Egyptians, for example?), of course, you also collected, painted and played with the opposing army.

I babble on but have found this to be an interesting conversation. I'll shut up now.

Chris

I think the business model most closely relates itself to the LCG models (Netrunner, Star Wars LCG) that are becoming increasingly popular.

Don't apologise for "babbling" I have these thoughts regularly but usually don't have the courage to share them with like-minded individuals at all.

Well, my approach is the following: I consider X-wing to be a miniatures game which has cards as a part of it's game-engine, much like Warmachine or Freebooters Fate. Most of the games my friends and I play fall into the "beer-and-pretzel-game" category in that they are mostly about having fun rather then winning. As such we make little use of the upgrades that most people here think are an essential part of the game. We play more or less in fluff; meaning we give an Y-wing a free ion-canon since it's what they would have in the movies, no-one would be saying: oops the Imperials field less ships then we do; let's get the turret off the ship...

Me being not competitive in any way is also the most important reason why I do not enter in tournaments, they most often get too tense for my liking. Yet the pilot cards/upgrade cards system makes X-wing an excellent tournament game: people can tweak their force indefinitely to get the most out of it and therefore try and get the high-ground before even encountering an opponent in the flesh. Nothing wrong with that it's part of the game and as such fun, it stops being fun when people are getting cheesy.

The game to me has it's biggest attraction in being set against the background of my all-time favourite Sci-Fi movies. Nothing can beat the moments where you go all "geeky" and start quoting lines like: "Stay on target, STAY on target" and forget your target-lock all together. I even had a moment in which I had the "satellite" scenario out of the rulebook in my pocket with my TIE advanced having caught the satellite with everything clear to go back to my deployment zone and then miscalculating my movement and having it fly off the opposite board edge thus yielding victory to my opponent, yet we laughed our behinds off: "I find your lack of feel- for-direction disturbing!"

Having said all this: I think I am not collecting the game at all for the models or even the cards but more to be able to play a game in a great background which gives you epic movie-moments with all players quoting away the more the amber liquids flow!

Being that I just played another person for the first time this weekend I feel the same way, I am very into just having fun and making it more thematic. I want three of each ship (At least) so I can make cool flying formations and say, one broke off from the pack, go after him.

I think for some it becomes too much about the cards and the upgrades, to the point that you never actually use half of the upgrades or ships you have because you just want to win... This weekend I played a blue squad B-wing, Horton Salm with ion cannons and Chewie in the YT with gunner and Millenium Falcon... I started out okay and then I got destroyed, but it was fun playing with this crazy combo of misfits. I think once I get my desired amount of ships I will probably pick my ships and then have a dice roll or something to pick which upgrades I choose to make it fun and random.

It quoted what I wrote...*facepalm*

Just out of curiosity... And I ask this because I play A LOT of miniatures games (and have for over 35 years)... but just WHAT do miniatures ACTUALLY DO in a miniatures game beside provide a 3D represention of whatever it is they represent? I cannot think of any miniatures game where a #d miniature could not be replaced by a 2D counter and still play just the same. The actual game data is kept "somewhere", whether that is in a codex, a rule book, written in the specific scenario rules, stored in a computer or printed on the counter itself (or on a disk like the Heroclix stuff). Ultimately, though, the miniature just provides pleasant visual representation of the subject and situation at hand. Many games come with counters that players can replace with miniatures when they can.

I am sooooo glad I found this forum. Go to a GW forum and people with WYSIWYG and don't like "proxies" or "counts as" make you believe it's the miniatures and not the rules what you have to play with. I am a causal player and if your flamer is a plasma weapon so be it. I find it so Fracking funny some people can memorize all the rules, all the codexes, and yet a flamer can't be a plasma weapon. It's too "complicated" for the person to play with, BUT YET psychic powers and what not, are not WYSIWYG but they are perfectly fine with that.

What then, DOES make a "miniatures game", a miniatures game? What makes a "card game" a card game? Is there a diference between a "card game" and a game with cards? Monopoly is a "board game" that utilizes "miniatures" but IS NOT a miniatures game (IMO) but why not? What about RISK?

Well... I have just written and erased 4 versions of my answers to those "simple questions"; perhaps the question is not so simple as it appears, hmmmmnnn...

Chris

That is what I thought exactly. I couldn't find a simple answer so had to ask.

It quoted what I wrote...*facepalm*

But... The software FFG uses for thse boards are IMO far from the best I've seen. I've had a number of times where I delete text from a quote then can't break out of the quote line, or have the whole thing simply dissapear.

Go to a GW forum and people with WYSIWYG and don't like "proxies" or "counts as" make you believe it's the miniatures and not the rules what you have to play with.

I'm pretty much 100% convenced that the whole point behind that rule is to sell more models.

I mean sure it's nice to have the upgrades modeled and all. But the way GW sets things up, it's pretty clear they just want to make people buy more models from them.

For example in the 5th ed SpaceMarine codex, one of the heavy weapon options is a Heavy Bolter. But the standard SM tactical squad pack $40 does not come with a heavy bolter, if you want one of those you have to buy a Devastator squad $35, which of course means you can't have 2 HB's in your devastator squad now. Same thing goes for Sgt's with Powerfists.

That was one of the resons I gave up on 40k and GW games. It's pretty clear they set up the game in such a way to force players to spend a great deal of extra money just to have all the options that are listed in the Codex.