I'm interested in getting the community's thoughts on how to balance two things that, in the last minutes of a tournament round, feel somewhat in conflict with each other.

In the Tournament Rules, under the Unsportsmanlike Conduct it says "This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, abusing an infinite combo, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, etc." Then, a few sentences later under Missed Opportunities the rules state "Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity."

Now, suppose there are two-three minutes left in a game, you are currently ahead of your opponent in points, and it is time to set maneuver dials and plot out your next round of movement. If you go through another round of combat, there's a decent chance the game could swing and your opponent would be ahead in points. Normally, I don't think spending 2-3 minutes to figure out your maneuvers and set your dials is out of the realm of reason (depending on the number of ships, how much of a furball things are, etc.). But KNOWING there is limited time left, would it be considered "intentionally stalling" to not go as quickly as possible with setting maneuvers so that there is no missed opportunity? If your opponent called you on it, would they be considered rushing you with the intent of forcing you to miss an opportunity (the opportunity to win, in this case)?

I am sure it is very situational in terms of making the right call on this, but if you've encountered something like this and have any thoughts to share I'd love to hear them. I personally erred on the side of sportsmanship twice in the same tournament, rushing my movement out of a sense of wanting to not be unsportsmanlike, and it ended up costing me 4 points in the tournament (a partial win became a draw, and a full win became a partial).

if there is going to be a time limit on the games then there should be a time limit for each player in each phase. you can't have one without the other and have a system work effectively.

otherwise follow the rules as stated. 2-3 minutes left? no time limit for a player to finalize their choices in any current phase? stall the clock. win the game.

The question here really becomes "are you suddenly taking longer to set your dials than you previously have been?" If so then I really don't believe your opponent should be criticized for "rushing" you and actually saying you are guilt of "slow play" IS a real possibility. I'll admit you're formations may be broken up and there may be other issues that can legitimately account for taking longer but suddenly taking twice as long "thinking" when you have all the reasons for stalling makes it far more questionable.

That's a tough spot with a timed game that allows you time to make decisions.

I'd maybe disagree with StevenO. The situation he's talking about would mean that, if improperly played, you'd lose the game. If you took the time element away, you are faced with possibly losing either way. In that case, I'd be certain I was satisfied with my move and would take all the time necessary to avoid a loss.

In this situation though, I would have to say if you started the dial decision when time runs out, it would make sense that you should be forced to finish the round. I haven't ever played a timed game, but it strikes me as odd that a timed match can be canceled before a round is finished.

This is why when I'm running tournaments, I run with a slight variance on time (in other words a 40min round could be any time from 40-45 mins, decided before the round). So players can't know this game will be called in exactly 3min 40secs.. I then call out when it comes to that time, "OK time up, finish your last turn and score up", so yes I would always allow them to finish the turn they are in. I would set up the tournament to allow enough time for this.

This is why when I'm running tournaments, I run with a slight variance on time (in other words a 40min round could be any time from 40-45 mins, decided before the round). So players can't know this game will be called in exactly 3min 40secs.. I then call out when it comes to that time, "OK time up, finish your last turn and score up", so yes I would always allow them to finish the turn they are in. I would set up the tournament to allow enough time for this.

I like this, just like in soccer, up to the referee/judge when the actual time is up.

I also generally, if time permits (eg. Your going into the lunch break), the game is close and both players agree, for them to play on. There is nothing cooler than a really close game, being watched by all the players as they eat their sandwiches.

If you can "play out the round" then it really shouldn't matter but if you're "winning" but "could" make a wrong move and end up losing because of it so you just "slow play to avoid it" that is stalling. I mean if that's the case you might as well call the game right there and not even bother with a final round. I know this has been an issue for many games when it comes to "how do you pick a 'real' winner when the game isn't over when it's over."

As RM mentions games should have a "minimum" allotted which a player is guaranteed to get unless the game ends earlier but a solid backstop should really be avoided if possible.

I think "don't rush people and cause a missed opportunity" refers to rushing people and making them forget to do something like take an action or shoot with one of their guys. It doesn't mean that you should have to rush in order to make the game longer, that's not the same sort of "missed opportunity." In this case, don't stall but don't rush the other guy either. If it seems like someone is doing either, the TO should come over and observe.

We always play that if you have set dials then we finish that turn. If you have 3 minutes left, you have time to set dials and play on to finish the turn even if it takes 10 mins. If the opponent in the worse position wants to offer time, then that is acceptable, however, the other player can elect to play on.

60 minutes is the limit in which turns can be started, if you run over a bit finishing a turn so be it.

abusing an infinite combo,

Good lord, why is this NOT a thing in MTG? I'm getting really tired of seeing infinite creature generator combos.

abusing an infinite combo,

Good lord, why is this NOT a thing in MTG? I'm getting really tired of seeing infinite creature generator combos.

MtG does, or at least did, have rules on infinite loops. I believe the result is actually a draw. Otherwise some limit needs to be selected although that limit can be quite large.

Is there even an infinite combo in this game, cos i havent seen it...

Feeling a little worried now.

Is ffg planing to accidentally make one in the future

The question of stalling can be a fine line in timed games. u r really relying on people to play fairly and not abuse the amount of time they take to play their turn (plan, check for target locks or barrel rolls, that sort of thing). In the updated tournament level rules it does mention that during timed games a player can request that ' competitive play ' rules be followed - this means that once u physically check for a target lock for example, then if the target ship IS in range you MUST target lock that ship and cannot then change your mind. Same for barrel rolls and boosting actions.

some players play slowly. they plan slowly. its frustrating but [imo] u have the right to ask them to play in a timely manner and/or call over a judge and ask the judge to keep an eye on things if u suspect 'deliberate' slow play. id talk to them myself in the first instance and say something like... I dont want to rush you, i just want to ask that you play in a timely manner from this point as we are playing to a time limit. If you didnt get a suitable response like... "oh sorry i didnt even notice i will try to plan/play a little faster", id bring it to the judges attention at that point - its something the judge needs to be aware of (who knows, this guy might have a reputation for playing slowly in earlier rounds).

As a judge id warn the player if i felt it was needed, to get him to play faster. I might also consider adding extra time onto a game if it was really close - sort of like injury time at the end of a sports game where the referee has the final say on the game clock due to stoppages earlier in the game.

When time is reached, players finish the current round. Stalling on dials (or anything else) may prevent any more rounds from occurring, but it can't stop the current round.

Determining whether or not someone is stalling depends on the entire situation - how many ships are left, where those ships are, who's ahead by how much, how quickly players have been making decisions up to that point... Intentional stalling will, IMHO, manifest as a player at the end of the game, with fewer ships remaining, playing noticeably slower than they were earlier in the game.

Outside of intentional stalling, nobody is obligated to play faster just because time is short. If it's taking you longer to place your one dial than me to place 3, I might find it a bit annoying, but so long as I don't think you're stalling on purpose there's no limit on you thinking (or overthinking) the situation.

Yep stalling is different from just being slow... I had a mate who suffered horribly from analysis paralysis, I have seen him stare at his last remaining models for ages, when there was no way for him to win.

This is very different from stalling, which is done for profit. IE you know that if the game ends your Shuttle will not be taken down by the remaining enemy fighter and you will win. So you play really slowly, so you don't have enough turns for the fighter to take down your shuttle.

Gentlemen,

what you are discussing is the very thing I dislike about the "competitive, tournament-style games". The goal in these games has become "winning" rather than sharing an enjoyable experience. No, the two are not mutually exclusive but the emphasis is on competition; winning or losing (and nobody like losing a competition). Society (and by extension, gamers) has become more competitive and less cooperative. Some (only some) gamers cannot put aside their egos and put winning above all; they are inherently selfish as they consider "winning" to be more important than the "enjoyment of the game" by ALL players, including their opponent. They are also a pain in the arse for game masters/referees/tournament organizers and all around them. They do not do themselves or the hobby justice and just put a bad taste in peoples mouths, discouraging others from participating in our favorite hobby.

Enough ranting...

To answer your question and offer constructive input... Consider a cut-off time or game turn (before you actually run out of time), say... 8 Turns (for example). At the end of Turn 8, roll a D6; on a roll of '5' or '6', the game ends immediately. On a roll of '1-4', play continues for one more turn. At the end of Turn 9, roll a D6; a roll of '4', '5' or '6', means the game ends immediately; '1-3' means it continues for another turn. In any case, the game ends at the end of Turn 10, if not before. This method provides both a sense of urgency as you approach the final turns of the game but also the uncertainty of not knowing "exactly" when it will end, discouraging unrealistic "endgame" maneuvers that would be stupid/suicidal in the "real world".

Just a thought.

Chris

Gentlemen,

what you are discussing is the very thing I dislike about the "competitive, tournament-style games". The goal in these games has become "winning" rather than sharing an enjoyable experience. No, the two are not mutually exclusive but the emphasis is on competition; winning or losing (and nobody like losing a competition). Society (and by extension, gamers) has become more competitive and less cooperative. Some (only some) gamers cannot put aside their egos and put winning above all; they are inherently selfish as they consider "winning" to be more important than the "enjoyment of the game" by ALL players, including their opponent. They are also a pain in the arse for game masters/referees/tournament organizers and all around them. They do not do themselves or the hobby justice and just put a bad taste in peoples mouths, discouraging others from participating in our favorite hobby.

Enough ranting...

To answer your question and offer constructive input... Consider a cut-off time or game turn (before you actually run out of time), say... 8 Turns (for example). At the end of Turn 8, roll a D6; on a roll of '5' or '6', the game ends immediately. On a roll of '1-4', play continues for one more turn. At the end of Turn 9, roll a D6; a roll of '4', '5' or '6', means the game ends immediately; '1-3' means it continues for another turn. In any case, the game ends at the end of Turn 10, if not before. This method provides both a sense of urgency as you approach the final turns of the game but also the uncertainty of not knowing "exactly" when it will end, discouraging unrealistic "endgame" maneuvers that would be stupid/suicidal in the "real world".

Just a thought.

Chris

My primary focus when playing any game is having fun. Part of what makes a game fun is the social aspect, which tends to be a pretty positive experience with this game usually (most players I have found in the Phoenix area are pretty awesome). Another part of what makes a game fun, for me, is definitely competition - but more with myself, rather than the other players (though I would be lying if I said I didn't care about winning). I am always trying to better my own game - finding ways to optimize my skills and my favorite squads, testing different builds out to see their strengths and weaknesses, etc. A tournament setting is one of the best ways I have found to do that, but it comes with the heightened emphasis of winning because there are usually prizes involved (and I usually want them ). I'll find my own balance eventually, and I think from reading all of these comments that the best approach to playing the game is to try to just keep the timing thing out of my head as much as possible and just play my normal game, and let the chips fall where they may.

As for the set number of turns, I like the concept in theory but it would probably mean a lot of people sitting around for a while waiting for the TIE swarm vs. TIE swarm game to finish. Maybe you could have some sort of modification to your basic premise where the die rolls at the end would be influences by the number of ships on the board at the beginning of the game or something? It takes time to keep everyone range one of Howlrunner, after all!

I'm not too concerned about specific definitions of the term "sportsmanship", but if it were ME, I would consider it unsporting to try to win a tournament by stalling the opponent so the time runs out and they're not able to take their turn.

I'd just choose my maneuvers in a reasonable amount of time and see what happens.

Stalling on your part or hurrying the other player is just wrong. Be honest and play accordingly. You should either finish a turn completely or not start a new turn if their is insufficient time to complete that turn. If winning is the only objective, then go be an a-hole in a different game. I can think of 40,000 something for you...

A related question...

When is a game actually over? I have been to 5 regional and Kessel run tournaments (plus numerous other tournaments), and they have all followed 1 of 2 options:

1. Time runs out, everyone stops what they are doing regardless of what it is (even if you are about to just roll the dice... the game is over.

2. Time runs out, everyone finishes the current phase (so, if you are setting dials it is functionally over, if you are in combat you finish the current combat phase).

I have never played a game were they said time is up finish the entire round (so, those just starting the movement phase get to finish both that phase and the combat phase).

So, when does a round end?

1. When time is called you are done (would be unfair if one player got to attack and the other player didn't get to attack back).

2. When time is called you get to finish the phase (I like this, but it can lead to the issue raised by the OP).

3. When time is called you get to finish the round -- so if you have at started the planning phase, you play through the combat phase (this could make a 75 minute game at least 5-10 minutes longer depending on where they are in the game when time is called, which seems like a lot).

Not sure how to handle the stalling vs. rushing issue. 1 minute does not seem like enough time up to set up to 4 dials in most instances (probably enough to set up 1-2 though). 2 minutes is more iffy (1-2 should work for sure, 3-4 are more iffy). 3 minutes seems like enough time to set 3-4 dials in most instances. And, most people probably have between 1-4 ships left by the end of the game.

I guess it comes down to the organizer, I would always work in time to finish the entire turn.

Stalling on your part or hurrying the other player is just wrong. Be honest and play accordingly. You should either finish a turn completely or not start a new turn if their is insufficient time to complete that turn. If winning is the only objective, then go be an a-hole in a different game. I can think of 40,000 something for you...

I agree, once a turn starts, it should be finished completely.

In the end, anyone who has to "stall" "cheat" or what ever you call it, as I say on GW forums, you are playing with plastic toy soldiers, (in this case, toy air planes as my wife calls it ) it speaks volumes of their character.

Do you really need to win with plastic toy soldiers or toy airplanes?

well, as for me, I tend to play a little slower than other people because i am trying to figure out how i wanna go and where my opponent is going. i do not stall on purpose and am still not that slow as to stall a game on purpose. i have played two major tournaments, the may 4th event in mn. and gengon in indy. both times i have lost all my rounds, either by modified or by downright getting blown out of the galaxy. not one time did i get accused of playing slow or playing slow on purpose. nor did it hurt my feelings that i lost all my rounds. Actually i think just playing a game in that setting makes me a better player and helps me to "think faster" in terms of strategy. I also don't really care if someone takes longer than me to set thier dials unless it takes them three times as long. as me and i am slow... but not on purpose. and in no situation have i seen or suspected or been accused of stalling in the late game. nor have i seen anyone in the two tournaments act in an unsportsman like manner. which I cannot say about someone i play @ my local game store. who always makes his list after i say what i am running. then builds a list to overpower me. and tries to abuse rules to benefit him and is just overbearing in the game. he is a really nice guy but i hate playing with him. but still that makes me a better player and teaches me hard knocks strategy. also allows me to practice my patience what i need to learn now is how to beat people like that without sounding like a rules junkie. he does not play in tourneys and says he doesn't want to but he can't stand to lose either and his having to win gets under my collar a bit. i will continue to play him but i won't stoop to his level just to win and as long as i keep it casual ( note: when i play i really am playing for the fun of it i could really careless if i win or lose, winning is just icing on the cake.) i will enjoy this game for many many years across many many galaxies.

well, as for me, I tend to play a little slower than other people because i am trying to figure out how i wanna go and where my opponent is going. i do not stall on purpose and am still not that slow as to stall a game on purpose. i have played two major tournaments, the may 4th event in mn. and gengon in indy. both times i have lost all my rounds, either by modified or by downright getting blown out of the galaxy. not one time did i get accused of playing slow or playing slow on purpose. nor did it hurt my feelings that i lost all my rounds. Actually i think just playing a game in that setting makes me a better player and helps me to "think faster" in terms of strategy. I also don't really care if someone takes longer than me to set thier dials unless it takes them three times as long. as me and i am slow... but not on purpose. and in no situation have i seen or suspected or been accused of stalling in the late game. nor have i seen anyone in the two tournaments act in an unsportsman like manner. which I cannot say about someone i play @ my local game store. who always makes his list after i say what i am running. then builds a list to overpower me. and tries to abuse rules to benefit him and is just overbearing in the game. he is a really nice guy but i hate playing with him. but still that makes me a better player and teaches me hard knocks strategy. also allows me to practice my patience what i need to learn now is how to beat people like that without sounding like a rules junkie. he does not play in tourneys and says he doesn't want to but he can't stand to lose either and his having to win gets under my collar a bit. i will continue to play him but i won't stoop to his level just to win and as long as i keep it casual ( note: when i play i really am playing for the fun of it i could really careless if i win or lose, winning is just icing on the cake.) i will enjoy this game for many many years across many many galaxies.

wdave - u sound just like a friend of mine who plays All games slowly because he is a real thinker who has to analyse EVERYTHING before making a careful decision based on all the information. keep up the hard work, gr8 that u r not phased by losing - like in chess i think u learn MORE when u lose - it forces u to reflect on what happened and when u made certain moves that might have lead to losing, or a key dice roll or something else that turned the game. sounds like u r a student of the game. would love to play you sometime