Can someone hold my hand and baby-step me through Gunner? I *totally* don't get when and how it works. Does it trigger on any miss? Only when all dice miss? Do evades count as misses? Can any weapon trigger it?
Yeah, I'm stumped.
Thanks in advance.
Signed, TotalNoobBeginner
1.- You roll attack dice.
2.- You and your opponent modify attack roll (convert eyes to hits... Rerolls, etc...)
3.- Your opponent rolls defense dice.
4.- You and your opponent modify defense roll (convert eyes to evades... Rerolls, etc...)
5.A.- Is there any uncancelled attack dice hit result? ----> Attack HITS ----> Apply damage. Gunner does NOT activate.
5.B.- All hit results were cancelled by defence dice/evade tokens, or there aren't any hit results? -----> Attack MISSES (does not hit) -----> GUNNER ACTIVATES.
6.- Gunner immediately performs a PRIMARY WEAPON attack.
To me the way to look at gunner mostly doesn't care about it.
1. Did your attack strip off any shields or deal any damage cards? No = continue.
2. Have you used Gunner (or Luke) yet? No = continue.
3. Make a primary weapon attack using gunner just like any other attack you'd normally make.
Also, Gunner does not have to be against the same target that the original attack was - any legal target will do.
It also has a few weird interactions with other abilities, some of which are still being straightened out.
One of them from last wave was Cluster Missiles, which lets you discard the CM card, spend a target lock, and make a CM attack twice. The last FAQ ruled that those are two separate, distinct attacks made versus the same target. With Gunner it can get a little complicated.
1. Make a cluster missile attack
2. It misses
3. Decide to use Gunner
4. "No more attacks this round" text prevents the second cluster missile attack from happening
OR
1. Make a cluster missile attack
2. It misses
3. Pass on Gunner
4. Make the second cluster missile attack
5. IT misses
6. Decide to use Gunner
1. Did your attack strip off any shields or deal any damage cards? No = continue.
I was thinking the same thing. If you don't do damage you get to use gunner. Damage being a damage card or removing a shield.
I'm trying think of a case where that wouldn't be true. But so far nothing comes to mind.
1. Did your attack strip off any shields or deal any damage cards? No = continue.
I was thinking the same thing. If you don't do damage you get to use gunner. Damage being a damage card or removing a shield.
I'm trying think of a case where that wouldn't be true. But so far nothing comes to mind.
Only thing I can think of is DTF. Given you're still doing damage, just not to your target.
Or Chewy crew card. Though I suppose he has to receive the damage card in order to discard the damage card.
1. Did your attack strip off any shields or deal any damage cards? No = continue.
I was thinking the same thing. If you don't do damage you get to use gunner. Damage being a damage card or removing a shield.
I'm trying think of a case where that wouldn't be true. But so far nothing comes to mind.
Only thing I can think of is DTF. Given you're still doing damage, just not to your target.
Or Chewy crew card. Though I suppose he has to receive the damage card in order to discard the damage card.
Think of it this way: In order for the other guy to use DTF, your attack by definition has to have hit (after all, no hit, there's no crit to pass on). And for better or worse, Gunner could care less where that hit GOES, just whether there was one.
Or I guess, put still another way: Gunner only cares whether the shot connects, not where the damage winds up afterward.
For both DTF and Chewie, you're still delt damage, so the defender is still hit. Even though the damage may go somewhere else or even be discarded, it was still dealt.
Now the thing is, that techinally Gunner isn't based on damage, it's based on a hit. But as far as I can see there's never a case where a Hit doesn't cause either a shield to be removed or a damage card dealt. What happens after that point doesn't change the fact that the ship was hit.
So no damage = gunner is a nice shorthand way of thinking of it, but may not always work.
Edited by VanorDMAlso, Gunner does not have to be against the same target that the original attack was - any legal target will do.
It also has a few weird interactions with other abilities, some of which are still being straightened out.
One of them from last wave was Cluster Missiles, which lets you discard the CM card, spend a target lock, and make a CM attack twice. The last FAQ ruled that those are two separate, distinct attacks made versus the same target. With Gunner it can get a little complicated.
1. Make a cluster missile attack
2. It misses
3. Decide to use Gunner
4. "No more attacks this round" text prevents the second cluster missile attack from happening
OR
1. Make a cluster missile attack
2. It misses
3. Pass on Gunner
4. Make the second cluster missile attack
5. IT misses
6. Decide to use Gunner
What? You can't "pass" on gunner - once you make the first cluster missile attack and it misses, you MUST immediately activate gunner. Then gunner forces the second cluster missile attack to fizzle. The only way you get 3 attacks is if the first cluster hits and the second misses...
As with Stealth Device, it's not a good idea to tie "hit" and "damaged" concepts together, or consider them equal.
Khyros covers the main cause at the moment - Draw Their Fire can result in no damage being done to your target. That may still be resolvable, but it leads to the next obvious question of "What happens if I damage someone other than who I shot at?" I don't think there are any now, but if we get upgrades in the future that actively cancel damage, they would also skew the understanding.
Page 12 defines "hit": uncanceled {Hit} or {Critical Hit} results remain after canceling dice. Safer for all involved to stick to that
You don't MUST immediately activate Gunner.
What? You can't "pass" on gunner - once you make the first cluster missile attack and it misses, you MUST immediately activate gunner. Then gunner forces the second cluster missile attack to fizzle. The only way you get 3 attacks is if the first cluster hits and the second misses...
Probably want to take another peek at the FAQ
Gunner and Luke have been errata'ed to "may". They are now optional.
F to the A to the Qizzoo, son.
You don't MUST immediately activate Gunner.
Yeah the FAQ page 1 says...
After you perform an attack that does not hit, you may immediately peform a primary weapon attack.
They added the may to it, so gunner is no longer required.
Safer for all involved to stick to that
I agree, it's better to stick with Hit, was just thinking out loud a bit about hit = damage somewhere.
As with Stealth Device, it's not a good idea to tie "hit" and "damaged" concepts together, or consider them equal.
Khyros covers the main cause at the moment - Draw Their Fire can result in no damage being done to your target. That may still be resolvable, but it leads to the next obvious question of "What happens if I damage someone other than who I shot at?" I don't think there are any now, but if we get upgrades in the future that actively cancel damage, they would also skew the understanding.
Page 12 defines "hit": uncanceled {Hit} or {Critical Hit} results remain after canceling dice. Safer for all involved to stick to that
I'm pretty sure that's what I was saying. He just has a bad habit of coming in after me and stating things all "clearly" and "concisely." Jerk.
Also, it's been alleged before that Buhalin and I are the same person anyway.
For all I know, they may be right. I can honestly say I've never seen us in one place at the same time.
Also, it's been alleged before that Buhalin and I are the same person anyway.
So Buhalin is the account you use when you want to post something that is correct?
Also, it's been alleged before that Buhalin and I are the same person anyway.
So Buhalin is the account you use when you want to post something that is correct?
No, it's the account I use when I want to start a nerd riot.
No, it's the account I use when I want to start a nerd riot.
Fair enough
As with Stealth Device, it's not a good idea to tie "hit" and "damaged" concepts together, or consider them equal.
Khyros covers the main cause at the moment - Draw Their Fire can result in no damage being done to your target. That may still be resolvable, but it leads to the next obvious question of "What happens if I damage someone other than who I shot at?" I don't think there are any now, but if we get upgrades in the future that actively cancel damage, they would also skew the understanding.
Page 12 defines "hit": uncanceled {Hit} or {Critical Hit} results remain after canceling dice. Safer for all involved to stick to that
This is certainly true but provided one remembers the little distinctions they are usually true.
With the Stealth Device the problem is more what counts as an "attack that hits" as opposed to "something that deals damage." I guess I've never seen anyone think they could use Gunner because their seismic mine failed to cause any damage where that mine, or landing on an asteroid for damage, has caused many questions about the Stealth Device.
Now with a Cluster Missile I understand that if CMa1 misses and Gunner is used there is no CMa2 (cluster missile attack#) and if both miss then Gunner can still be used. What if CMa1 is actually a "hit" but CMa2 is then a miss? I assume Gunner can still trigger off of that miss as it is a missed attack.
I believe you are correct there. If it's a separate attack, it's a separate attack. So I think if the first attack hits, so bet it (Jedi), and then if the second one misses, it's fair game for Gunner.
And I have to say, every time I see this thread title, all I can hear is the bad guy from Galaxy Quest going "He does not understand. Explain as you would a child."
Ahhh... Galaxy Quest. One of the best movies ever.
Thanks for the replies. I had it more right than I thought.
Although I also saw an instance last night where a ship with gunner had a crit hit where its next attack rolled no dice (sorry, forget name of crit). Would that trigger Gunner? Or does the No Dice thing mean you never even got to the miss, i.e., you didn't shoot, you didn't miss, so you can't shoot 'again'?