The one that is suggested in the main rules just doesn't cut it for progression and personalized feel for my players. They would like to keep their achievements from scenario to scenario (we are on the well of darkness expansion), but I am unsure how to ballance that with overlord scaling of mobs, cards drawn, thread received, deck customization, etc... Anyone have tried this with some level of success? Please don't offer suggestions like "play road to legend instead". We love the basic game, we just would like a more persistent and seamless campaign mode than +100 gp per scenario completed. Any insights welcome.

As I said in another, similar thread, the basic issue is that the OL's power at the end of one quest is higher than at the beginning of the next quest. Since the overlord decreases in power, the heroes must decrease in power, too, or balance is out the window. There's also lots of more minor issues, like the fact that copper chests don't hold much appeal for the heroes if they've already got gold-level equipment.

You could theoretically give the OL some huge starting advantage that would counterbalance the heroes' tremendous starting power, but in practice that probably means that the actual quest you're playing is irrelevant, because both sides are getting most of their resources and restrictions from your house rules, not from the actual quest. That seems kind of silly.

You could let heroes re-acquire their stuff gradually...maybe keep a list of the items they had last game, and when they draw a treasure from a chest, they can choose to automatically get one that they previously had instead of a random one, but the OL gets some extra threat if they do.

And you could always create your own quests, where both sides gain power more gradually, so you can keep accumulating longer.

But there is no straightforward way to let heroes start one of the official quests with gold treasures. The game just doesn't work that way.

I personnally use this:

1. Skills are kept between quests.
2. 5 skills maximum.
3. Training tokens don't follow.
4. We apply the bonus money + training as specified in the JitD quest book.
5. Equipment don't follow.
6. Common money stash for all heroes.

Players beat me all the time except for 2-3 quests in all JitD and WoD. I don't mind losing, it's all about fun right?

ShiroTheSniper said:

First quest, go seel all items, come back with one big rune or weapon just, and kill the boss. Why sell everything ?! so you can buy skills, start of second quest 4-5 skills per character. If they were not that lucky they will get it in the second mission.

And yeah its about fun, but then the game is not there, except for movement and combat rules, your not following the point of stoping the heroes.

----

Basically all that antistone said, traps become less usefeull cause they won't chase chests, they will just ignore and run/kill everything, you could keep powers in play as the OL but again, then there is no progression at all, contrary to what you intended...you won't be progresing just repeating all the stuff you did all over again (just like when restarting the characters), and without the loot factor, gameplay will also go to hell. The heroes just are greedy and want to be overpowerd. IMO (only reason they would open chests would be if you Crushing blow them).

ShiroTheSniper said:

No, its all about crushing their souls and listening to the sweet laments of their women....

Or maybe that's just Road to Legend.

StarBurn said:

Well "my" players don't sell all the stuff, they still count on chest, they want them, they want/need loot and conquest tokens.

They're not so overpowered because I can still kill them, so the money pool drop... Maybe they get 5 skills after 4-5 quests, but then I can adjust my strategy...

We're having fun and they get killed, but they progress through the quests, and that's all we all want! We don't want to do the same quest 2-3 times in a row.

We've fun together (my friends, beers and I) and that's all matter to us. The game is still there and it works for us, because we just did 14 quests and we play each time our schedule fits

"No, its all about crushing their souls and listening to the sweet laments of their women...."

The Lament of The Hero's Women:

Roll 1 Black Dice

-On a Power Enhancement they are mostly indifferent.

-On a Surge they Lament.

- On a Blank they kind of like it.

ShiroTheSniper said:

All that was above the ---- was for you...rest was for OP...but yeah...I now that your way is better than what OP said, but still it leaves room for abuse, good you don't have players who do that, or just don't realise it. All I can say if it works for you have fun, same goes for OP, I'm just warning him on the pain all his monsters will go trough.

LostSailor said:

HAHAHA Nice!

LostSailor said:

Only on a blank?

Get another girl!!!

hehehe

Thanks for the replies guys. I am considering a few modifications but in general allow as much as possivble to carry over, keeping in mind that the next quest cannot be compromised.

First thing is that the players will need to trade in their silver and golds for copper pulls for the 1st three scenarios. Then trade in for silvers for scenarios 4-6, and 7-9 will be golds. This way loot is always increasing and relevant.

Secondly, to make sure mobs in the scenarios can still make the same impact on the characters I am considering printing up cards like DOOM (but that give mobs pierce that put them on par with basic mobs vs basic characters) that the OL can put out in play immediately.

Lastly black dice and skills will carry over, but so will OL enchants and possibly add a could more.

Thoughts?

shamalamastreetman said:

Make your life easy and go buy Road to Legend? Because that's essentially what you describing right now.

Seriously, I think you will start giving the Heroes a serious advantage as you get into the later Quests by letting them black dice and skills. And being able to start a Quest with Gold level treasure seems a bit much to me, even for the later ones.

Definately will get the RtL expansion eventually, but wanted to patch the current scenarios a bit until we get there. The goal I want to achieve is leveling the playing firld but giving the players that sense of continuity. So as long as my mobs can do same damage and take as much punishment as unpached, it'll be a success.

So as I studied the second scenario, the escape from prison one, if the players keep their dice, skills and bronze loot, I still want them to feel the stress and panic of going it solo aginst the initial mobs. I may have to try a setup, but adjust on the fly (my players don't really police how I play so may be able to +/- some pierce and armour values as we go). All they care about is a good challenge which I intend to provide no matter how we play.

You haven't gotten past quest 1 yet and you're already rebalancing the game? Certainly not making things easy on yourself as a designer. It's very difficult to know what to change unless you've already got the normal gameplay and strategy down pat--and Descent's got some tactics that a lot of people find counter-intuitive at first.

Quest 2 is designed to teach the heroes some of those tactics by pitting them against a really tough giant right at the beginning of the quest when they have no equipment (the quest is kinda pointless if the heroes already know the appropriate tactics, or if they're strong enough to power through without them). If the heroes are starting with copper treasures, extra trait dice, or bonus skills, you honestly risk spoiling the whole thing if you don't know the right stuff to adjust to compensate (and maybe even if you do). In particular, the named monsters probably need extra armor (not wounds, armor) roughly equal to the bonus damage your heroes are starting with. Having more monsters or dealing more damage will not cut it.

On the other hand, if you give them too much of a bonus, you risk making them too hard even after the heroes have acquired silver/gold chests...

I really recommend that...

Ah, forget it. I already told you I thought there was no good way to do this and you decided to do it anyway; no reason you'd change your mind now. I hope it somehow works out great for you.

Antistone, pls try and follow... we are on the 1st expansion, not the base game. Scenario 2 being the Spider's Den. But if you feel it cannot be done, then please just lurk. I am looking for peeps who have tried and succeeded to one degree oe another to chime in.

The more i look at their zip lock bags with what they have acquired in the cave in scenario, it becomes clear that I need to average their new acquisitions and basically null and void them mathematically. So they keep their sense of continuity, but the quest poses the same odds of risk and challenge. This can be countered with pierce and armour for the most part. The less numerical advantages such as skills like cleave are more of challenge.

Anyhow nothing to lose by trying it. Players just crave more continuity after "suffering" through character reset syndrome through 9 scenarios of the base game. This way, they trade in silvers for bronze pulls for scenario 2 and we should be ok.

Er...sorry. Guess I didn't read that carefully enough.

OK!

So we just ran our second scenario of the Well expansion in our house ruled campaign mode. Here are the modifications we applied:

Characters get to keep all gold, black dice level-ups, all new skills and any bronze weapons. Silver and Gold items from scenario 1 get traded in for bronze pulls.

The Overlord applies a +1 damage and +1 armour to all his monsters to offset the bronze weapons/armour and black dice. Overlord also collects 1 more threat per turn to offset any new skills.

The players had 2 silvers each from scenario 1 so they traded them in for bronze pulls.

Bascially the numbers were ok, but maybe skewed a bit too much for the Overlord. I killed them twice in scenario 2. Once after an hour, and another time after 3 hours. First run through there were only 2 players, but then 1 more joined for the second run through. If all 4 would have played they probably would have made it through.

To tone down the Overlord I will change the +1 damage to +1 pierce. We are still adjusting to the very hard hitting beastmen in the expansion (they account for most deaths). I spawn them whenever I can (spiders and skellies are still weak in comparison). Anyhow since they kept the gains from the 2 failed runs, we applied a penalty for failing a run (so it wouldn't feel like free leveling up whether you win or lose).

If the player lose a scenario (in house-ruled campaign mode) from now on (and we applied the penalty in retrospect for the last 2 failed runs), they must pay a "tax" of 250 gold. They can pay this however they like. Most just gave me coins, but some could pay with items using sale value. They probably still end up benefitting overall on a failed run (leveling up) but they have a bitter pill to swallow as well.

What do you think?

I will keep you posted after the next game session. We should have all 4 players next time.

Maybe this is a little off topic, maybe not.

How about a scenario that has these rules:

1. Heroes carry EVERYTHING over to the next quest. Gold, Skills, Dice, Items.

2. Hero party has EVERY hero. Players choose any combination of heroes to use.

3. When a hero dies, he is removed from the game. Along with all equipment and gold.

4. Another hero of the player's choosing is cycled in from town after the death of the previous. 4 heroes in "play" at a time.

Basically, at the start of any set/expansion, heroes form a party with any makeup that they want. (Jaes, Nanok, Silhouette, Talia) or whomever they want. The game starts on quest 1. If the OL kills a hero, they are gone. Never to return again.

I'm sure that there are some holes in this plan and I could probably list some if given the time to think about it, but this may be an interesting challenge. More a matter of survival for the players. Maybe even give the heroes a chance to "buy" back a dead hero for 10 or 15 conquest. (Use of conquest would change. The OL would not win unless EVERY hero is dead. Hero group could purchase upgrades with conquest?)

Thoughts? Would/could this be balanced? one expansion be better/worse than any other? And most importantly, could this be fun?

Feraldis, this sounds like a very interesting idea. It might even work with RtL campaigns. One of the arguments of my players against a RtL campaign after trying one was, that they had to play the same hero for a veeery long time.

Thinking about using randow draws, finally depleting the hero "deck" and then reshuffling, bringing in e.g. Tahlias "Daughter" after all other heros have died...

You would have to work out what to do with dice, skills, equipment if they die. I would suggest to keep the equipment (the fellows would loot the body) and let the new hero draw the same number of skills that the dead hero had from all currently available skills as well as have the same number of trait dice. Maybe add a small gold penalty?

You got me ticking...

There could be possibilities for this kind of thing in RTL, but I was thinking mainly of playing an expansion "campaign". You would get a hero deck for ToI for example.

The problem in looting the body is that without increasing the overlord's position during each new quest, you cannot effectively allow equipment to carry over unrestricted into the start of that new quest. Each quest is designed with progression in mind. If the overlord is dealing with a party decked out in gold treasure at the beginning of quest 4, he has very little chance to kill those heroes.

If, however, an OL can concentrate on 1 hero long enough to kill him/her, the OL now has the ability to remove certain treasures from play. They could then be re-added to the treasure deck for possible future circulation.

Feraldis said:

I do have trouble seeing the OL being very effective once heroes have gold-level equipment. However, since a lot of the early quests in say WoD don't even have gold treasures, that seems to play in with your idea a bit. I would also say, however, that a hero coming in with nothing at all mid-way through a quest may just be a really easy target. Does he start with the usual 300 gold? Can he buy treasures? Maybe new heroes can only buy treasures of types already opened thus far that quest? Perhaps instead of keeping the loot, the new hero gets the sell value of whatever that hero had equipped plus the half his gold he would have lost? That way you can possibly come into the game at moderate strength?

If Nanok dies with two training tokens (1k) and 2 silver items (1k) and a couple of potions (100), for example, you bring in Varikas with 1050 gold. You've only opened copper chests thus far, so varikas buys 3 coppers for 750 (down to 300),keeps belt of strength, sells 2 (up to 550), grabs a ring of prot, chain mail and and axe and 2 potions and can enter through any glyph on the following turn. Sounds fun.

Now then, if the OL only wins if all heroes are dead, what happens with conquest? Do heroes still lose it for dying? Gain it with glyphs/chests? It would have to be tested, but I guess saying if the heroes get up to 15 or so and can buy back a dead hero sounds reasonable...can they dip into negative conquest? If so, does the OL get it? If the OL has conquest can he spend it on something? Perhaps if the OL goes up 5 he could buy focused or something at the start of his turn, pick four to remove, and shuffle what's left of his deck. If he goes up 25...maybe he can upgrade his eldritch? Perhaps between quests there's a whole system of buying upgrades that have the same costs as you do in rtl, but you have to have that big lead and if you buy eldritch for 25, you not only go back to zero but give 25 to the heroes...who could buy fatigue upgrades for that PLAYER (not hero) for the rest of the campaign? Do you spend gold as heroes or just conquest? I don't know if any of this makes sense, just spinning wheels here. Could be a fun compromise between rtl and vanilla for sure.

Maybe between quests you can roll for encounters, too? Like heroes pick which of the 3 (green, yellow, red) paths they take. Green you roll...3 dice, yellow you roll 2, red 1. Encounters always on surge. Higher chance you get an encounter on the "easy" path, but easier encounters. Maybe the rewards are greater if you do a yellow or red one.

I would say that having played through nearly all the expansion quests outside of WoD (and still most of those...), I would probably need a new expansion to want to try something like that. It's a neat idea, not sure how time consuming it would be vs. just playing rtl anyways...which is a pretty fun system as it is what with avatars and lts. and upgrades and such.

Feraldis, I like your idea, very original! If you play it out, let us know how it goes. We may use it for the 2nd expansion after we finish this one. We will try and play this one out with the road we started. We'll need to tweak here and there, but hopefully at a point we will have a good mechanic for campaign mode.

One thing that occured to us is that 5 black dice may come about by scenario 4 making green potions useless. We were thinking about changing what they do. Three ideas have surfaced so far:

1) Green potions cost 75g and can either be a health or fatigue potion as per the need.

2) Green potions cost 50g, and heal health and fatigue by a green(?) die roll (range numbers).

3) Green potions cost 50g (?) and add a movement buff for that turn (maybe double move).

Any ideas?

shamalamastreetman said:

1) This could work. Gives it some versatility, but...I think 9 times out of ten your just gonna spend 50 and get a vitality (fatigue) potion.

2)Umm...I think there's only 1 (maybe 2) sides of the green die with range on it, and then it's only 1. Which makes this pretty useless. Yellow on the other hand has 1, 2 or 3 range which would be pretty cool. You could also say that a wound on the yellow die is an extra wound and a surge is an extra fatigue. That might be pretty cool.

3)This could be extremely overpowered if you double the movement. On a run action with a 5 speed character you can go 20 spaces and still spend fatigue for a few more. That's not even considering swift or tiger tattoo....then again, I guess you can't also drink a fatigue pot that turn, so...it's not MUCH different from a run on a high fatigue character.

On a side note, if you HAVE rtl, you could always let the power potion upgrade dice. You're still limited to buying only black die upgrades, but then you could roll up to 5 silvers if you are fully upgraded and use a power pot. That might get ridiculous with Gold weapons, though.

That being said, I think that if you are letting heroes keep treasure between quests that you may need to give some extra wounds or armor to the bosses anyway...maybe.

For the Move we looked at the avg config of 3 fatigue, 4 move. A move of 13 if you use fatigue route, or 16/19 if you use a haste potion.

Feanor said:

Quote from my above post:

So we just ran our second scenario of the Well expansion in our house ruled campaign mode. Here are the modifications we applied:

Characters get to keep all gold, black dice level-ups, all new skills and any bronze weapons. Silver and Gold items from scenario 1 get traded in for bronze pulls.

The Overlord applies a +1 damage and +1 armour to all his monsters to offset the bronze weapons/armour and black dice. Overlord also collects 1 more threat per turn to offset any new skills.

Yup I probably shoud consider adding fear or undying to my bosses to offset dice and skills. Items I am less worried about since by the time they hot the boss they will be carrying scenario level loot anyhow (I make them downgrade treasure between runs).