I'll cheer you on in every match you're in except the one where you're across the table from me.

in that one I'll do my best to destroy you, and them mock you the whole way home about it.

It kind of reminds me - Buhalin, did you see over on TC when Rojo Cinco popped on and was complaining about the tournament finals video from GenCon?

Well for anyone who doesn't haunt the Team Covenant forums, they put together and post some really nice tournament videos with play by play and stuff, and they put up a number from the recent GenCon tournament.

Anyway, this guy with the handle Rojo Cinco (I believe he runs a big X-Wing website based out of Spain), showed up one day and was aghast because he was watching the Finals and the two guys were being pretty loosey goosey about when to check for range and stuff like that. He was seriously mortified, like "is this how you play in America? That stuff would never fly over here."

Caught some of us off guard, because I think to a lot of people watching the video, it was just two guys maybe being a little casual, yeah, but showing good sportsmanship, playing a friendly but very competitive game. They'd help one another move ships if they could reach better, stuff like that. I certainly didn't think anything of it. To Rojo, it was an affront. I don't know that either side was really right or wrong, it was maybe just a cultural or personal difference in opinion. But he was adamant that the TO should have stepped in and enforced the tournament rules as written and not let them just take range measurements whenever they felt like it.

Just found it very interesting that where I thought they were being really good sports, he was insistent that they were at best breaking the rules, and at worst, cheating, and should have been stopped.

And to be clear, I'm not ragging on the guy. He wasn't necessarily wrong about them not playing to the letter of the rules. But they'd clearly both agreed to be a little bit more laid back about it, and I have trouble imagining someone stepping in and forcing them both to play differently if they were both cool with it. To a lot of us on the forum, that was cool. Apparently in Spain, that dwang wouldn't have flown. Just two VERY different perspectives on the exact same scenario.

I've talked with the Spanish guys a fair bit over on TC, and they definitely have a more old-school approach to measuring.

In this case, I'm not entirely sure I disagree with him. The FAQ is very clear on measuring - you can do it when an ability requires it, and that's it. I don't believe there was any question that they were playing it wrong.

Should the TO have done something about it? That's obviously up to them, but I lean towards thinking they should have. If a couple of friends ended up in the finals and decided to play casual and sportsmanlike with obstacle rules, and just agreed not to enforce them (effectively, play as if there were no obstacles) would we think that should be let go?

Measuring's an odd duck, for some reason - people get very strange where rules about it are concerned. But it's still a rule, and a pretty clear one. I don't think you should pick and choose which rules you enforce and which you don't. That's why I dislike the concept of "sportsmanship" which has evolved around tabletop games. Ignoring a rule is not good sportsmanship.

I see it a lot on Vassal, too - people hit the button to check range or fire arc when maybe they strictly aren't supposed to. I'm probably guilty of doing it myself without thinking, for all I know. I don't know, it seems like there's a fine line there somewhere. Would I want my opponent ignoring rules he didn't like and playing it however he felt? No, obviously not. But I don't know that I'd want him (or myself) to be that guy everyone hates, calling everyone out on every little thing and going from playing by the rules to sort of jamming the rules down everyone's throat. If I tried chewing someone out on Vassal every time I saw the TL range thing pop up when an ability didn't strictly require it, I'd probably never get another willing opponent again.

I guess putting it another way, there's playing by the rules, but there's also picking your battles. Sometimes it's definitely worth raising a stink over, other times I don't know if it's worth it.

Agree with that completely. And again, I think that measurement, for whatever reason, inhabits this weird spot in people's brains where rules surrounding it are sorta optional. I think in part this is because FFG didn't clarify it well in the base rules, but also because it seems like an odd restriction to people without a background in games that limited it. It's also an easy one to back up with fluff justifications ("Well, obviously an X-wing would be able to tell how far away that TIE is!")

I tend to approach it the same way I do any issue where someone's playing something wrong. Politely point out that the recent FAQ clarified when you can measure, and this isn't it. If they insist on ignoring it, I roll with it. Not worth walking away from the table over. That said, when I run events I do enforce it.

To get back to the original source of this particular question - I think that Rojo Cinco had a fair point. FFG decided that this would be the rule for measuring, and I would have expected them to enforce that in an event as large as the GenCon Nationals. That said, the finals started at something like 3am, finishing a tournament that started at 10am the previous day. So I can understand them not getting in the middle of it, but again, his point was valid.

And like I said - I wasn't trying to kind of "bwahaha, what an idiot" or anything. I was just fascinated by the fact that he was pretty adamant about it, and a little affronted, I think, and that the response on this side of the pond (mostly) seemed to be a resounding "meh." Not saying he wasn't right, just that nobody else who I saw chime in seemed to consider it a very big deal. Although as you pointed out, it was like three in the morning and they'd been playing for hours numbering into the double digits.

Since not all of us have all the Upgrade cards we want, Fantasy Flight may have unintentionally--or intentionally--installed a collectible card game element to X-wing. I'd like more Stealth Devices and Shield Upgrades and Englne Upgrades, but I don't want to buy a model I already own, especially if it's pricey.

So, as a house rule, we roll dice to see who gets priority. Winner can either choose Rebel or Empire, or pass. If he passes, the opponent has priority and chooses Rebel or Empire. In the end, whomever didn't get priority builds his squadron first, which means he has first pick of the Upgrade cards. When he finishes, the guy with priority builds his squadron.

Basically, you can either choose Rebel/Empire first, or build your squadron first--not both. It's kind of like Magic. If you take your turn first, you forfeit your first draw.

I'd like more Stealth Devices and Shield Upgrades and Englne Upgrades, but I don't want to buy a model I already own, especially if it's pricey.

Unless you're playing in a FFG event, there's no reason to buy extra ships just for the sake of the cards. Just write 'Steath Device' on paper and use that. If you're playing friendly matches there's no reason to not use proxies.

Also there is no secondary card market out there that I know of. It's not like MtG where you can buy those rare cards.

Edit: Which isn't to say you should give up your house rule if you all enjoy it and what it adds to the game. Just saying you don't have to make up special rules to deal with missing cards if you're willing to use proxies.

I'd say what you did was being kind, not sportsmanlike. To me sportsmanship is playing fairly but taht doesn't mean giving the other guy a break if they make a mistake. There was a thread on BGG I think where someone showed a YT that had the base 1/64th or less off the edge, and wanted to know peoples opinion on if he should of counted it destroyed or not.

The rules are quite clear the ship should be considered destroyed, because the base was off the edge. The rules don't say if most, or even 1/4th of the base, but rather any. Most people said that they'd most likely let the person keep the ship unless it was a tourny or something.

Someone said that counting the ship as destroyed would be poor sportsmanship. To which I replyed "Since when is following the rules poor sportsmanship?"

I would say that following the rules to a point which places demands on the players' dexterity which exceed that of a human being is indeed poor sportsmanship. If I understand your example of the YT-1300 base being off the edge correctly, expecting accuracy to 1/64" is ridiculous.

I would say that following the rules to a point which places demands on the players' dexterity which exceed that of a human being is indeed poor sportsmanship. If I understand your example of the YT-1300 base being off the edge correctly, expecting accuracy to 1/64" is ridiculous.

Not entirely sure what dexterity has to do with it. You seem to kind of assume that the ship would have ended up staying in play if not for the limits of human physical coordination, but the "proper" place could just as easily have been 5/64" out instead of 1/64".

Nothing in X-wing is that precise - bumps happen, there's play in positioning on both templates and ships, etc. IMHO a big part of sportsmanship in X-wing is accepting that. Yes, the ship ended up slightly off, and someone bumped it three turns ago, but you have to accept that and go on. Contrary to your suggestion that holding to the current position of the ship is bad sportsmanship, accepting the current position - no matter how it may have come to be there - is one of the most important elements of good sportsmanship in X-wing.

I would further argue that the game fully 'expects' you to do one of two things: either get good enough that you always know with a high degree of certainty where your ship is going to wind up, or realize that you can't, and fly it with a bit more margin of error.

You know pretty quickly that the larger base ships eat up a lot more space, cover a lot more ground, and run a higher risk of doing things like falling off the edge of the map if you're not careful. There's simply more risk involved in flying a ship like the Lambda or YT right to the very edge (both literally and figuratively), and I think it behooves you as a player to fly them a little more cautiously around the edges of the map if you're not confident in your ability to keep from going over.

expecting accuracy to 1/64" is ridiculous.

No it's not.

The current state of the game, is the only thing that matters. How it got there simply doesn't matter.

It is just as likely that the ship was bumped the otherway durning play, and had that not happened the ship might very well be even further off the table. You can't retroactively account for bumps one way but not the other. Either way you have to accept the spot the ship is currently at, and not assume it would of been on the table if it hadn't been bumped.

Again if this happened to someone I was playing in a friendly game, I'd be inclined to allow them to keep the ship in play.

But at no point can you ever say that following the rules is a matter of poor sportsmanship. The whole concept revolves around the idea that the rules are followed fairly by both sides. If anything the only case of poor sportsmanship would be in the person cheating by expecting a ship that went off the edge to be allowed to stay in play.

It's been said many times, in many different places, and it's IMO completely true...

X-Wing is a game of milimeters. Because more then one game has been deciced by that small of a difference.