aaanyway, would anyone be so kind as to relink the book via PM or in the forum?

Hell id actually like to help in the art department. I would do a few pieces for the book if art is that big if an issue. I can even ask 2 of the artists i know back from the westend games days to draw some pieces. I just need to know what needs to be done and what species it is in reference to. The guys I know im sure would like to get their hands dirty again..plus it give me an excuse to get more original art done from them.

Very well said Thomas D. ! Pretty much sums it up

The only thing that TheDearth2 should be worried about is his appropriation of the EotE trade dress, as AccidentalRob said. As Fart Head quoted, TheDearth2's work "is likely to cause confusion, or cause mistake ... as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval of his or her goods ... by [Fantasy Flight Games]". TheDearth2's work is a good that appears to be in the EotE product line (or, at least, approved by FFG) as it uses the same trade dress as other EotE products.

I reiterate – attribution to the original document is directly in the title of this post. Additionally, I believe the "non-commercial" attribute means that it can't be used commercially (i.e. "sold"). Posting it on a forum, IIRC, does not break a "non-commercial" license.

To Donovan and Cyril – the fact stands that your original work, licensed under CC, was attributed in the title of this post (I can't say if it was in the PDF b/c I, like Cyril, have not seen it). Nothing of yours was "stolen" (as Donovan, you continue to claim), because you licensed the document to allow this sort of derivative work to be done. Thank you to Donovan, however, for hoping that original work that I have created does, in fact, one day actually get stolen. That's awfully big of you.

The main beef here should be that thedearth2 didn't tell anybody involved in the original document that he was doing this, and that's a valid complaint, though not one that should stop him from keeping his version of the document posted. Crying "STOLEN!" and using terms like "slap in the face!" is childish, and blocking thedearth2 from allowing others to see / use his work is ridiculous. If anything, Cyril and Donovan should be asking for his help with the design for v2.

The only thing that TheDearth2 should be worried about is his appropriation of the EotE trade dress…

Exactly. I've PM'd him about this to give him my advice on the matter.

1. The CC License applies only to articles and material directly on the GSA. To claim it applies to files stored elsewhere is akin to us linking to the EotE character sheets and then claiming we've licensed those.

2. Permission was sought from each artist whose work appeared in the original document unless a reasonable expectation of fair use (particularly as it relates to wookieepedia image use) could be presumed.

3. Where a given artist denied permission for his work to be used, it was not used. Unfortunately, the revamped document did not adhere to this, presumably because its creator was unaware of such limits. Had he asked he would have been so informed. There was, however, no requirement for him to ask beyond the bounds of mere courtesy.

4. All parties involved have put their heads together and are working on a solution and update to the document that will benefit everyone, including the general public. The eventual outcome will be a bigger, better, and more useful document that everyone can enjoy.

5. At no time does the GSA intend to infringe the copyrights of artists, authors and other creators involved in any of our material. If someone feels their particular rights to their work have been infringed, I encourage them to let me know so that I may deal with it promptly. Fan created and publicly available content has always been a tricky area for the companies from whose work it is derived. It is only by the grace and good nature of FFG and even Lucas/Disney that we are allowed to do much of what we do at the GSA. Should that good nature run out a majority of our articles and content would, of necessity, simply disappear. If you do take advantage of the content we have on the site and make use of our license, as you are entitled to do, please tread carefully so that you do not inadvertantly step on someone else's toes.

And about the artwork:

If the artists said "please don't use this" and Donovan and Cyril went ahead and used them, then placed them under a license... I don't see how TheDearth2 has anything to do with that. There's absolutely nothing on the Menagerie 2.0 page or in the document itself that says certain items in the document aren't part of the CC license.

If there's something in the Menagerie artwork has been used without permission (based on Donovan's comments here), it sounds like Donovan and Cyril took those works without permission, used them in their work, and then licensed it so people can reuse those original art files.

No, you've gotten things mixed up, Donovan and Cyril asked to use certain pieces of artwork, the author denied their request, and so then they didn't use it. Nothing in the original menagerie was used without either permission or some sort of fair use.

TheDearth2 however, didn't look into getting permission from the art he used in his version. He even used some of the aforemention artwork that had it's permission to use denied. The GSA has an issue in that their work is now being coupled with the artwork that they informed the artists they would not use.

The main beef here should be that thedearth2 didn't tell anybody involved in the original document that he was doing this, and that's a valid complaint, though not one that should stop him from keeping his version of the document posted. Crying "STOLEN!" and using terms like "slap in the face!" is childish, and blocking thedearth2 from allowing others to see / use his work is ridiculous. If anything, Cyril and Donovan should be asking for his help with the design for v2.

They didn't block him from doing anything, he took it down under his own free will, which they've expressed their gratitude for. I also don't think you've really read the thread as they've said they're actively working together to get this thing back online with the appropriate changes made.

Thread in a nutshell: The Dearth, in his enthusiasm, steps on Donovan's toe. Donovan says, "Hey, man. Gettin' kinda crazy there. Try and keep an eye out."

"Oh! My bad," says The Dearth. "What can we do to work this out?"

"It's cool," says Donovan, "Let's try this..."

Then, as they confer and work things out like gentlemen, the crowd of bystanders immediately takes sides as to who really stepped on who's foot, and whether Donovan may have also stepped on someone's foot at some point, and whether a foot was there at all.

Huzzah for the internet!

Thread in a nutshell: The Dearth, in his enthusiasm, steps on Donovan's toe. Donovan says, "Hey, man. Gettin' kinda crazy there. Try and keep an eye out."

"Oh! My bad," says The Dearth. "What can we do to work this out?"

"It's cool," says Donovan, "Let's try this..."

Then, as they confer and work things out like gentlemen, the crowd of bystanders immediately takes sides as to who really stepped on who's foot, and whether Donovan may have also stepped on someone's foot at some point, and whether a foot was there at all.

Huzzah for the internet!

To bad it wasnt really like that. It was the way it was presented that made the fans annoyed.

Thread in a nutshell: The Dearth, in his enthusiasm, steps on Donovan's toe. Donovan says, "Hey, man. Gettin' kinda crazy there. Try and keep an eye out."

"Oh! My bad," says The Dearth. "What can we do to work this out?"

"It's cool," says Donovan, "Let's try this..."

Then, as they confer and work things out like gentlemen, the crowd of bystanders immediately takes sides as to who really stepped on who's foot, and whether Donovan may have also stepped on someone's foot at some point, and whether a foot was there at all.

Huzzah for the internet!

To bad it wasnt really like that. It was the way it was presented that made the fans annoyed.

Exactly. If it had been as gentlemanly on both sides as Falloon makes it sound, there would have been no crowd reaction, except "Hey, hurry up and make it public again!"

I only saw one side acting friendly and mature.

However, going "well, just you wait until someone steals from you and see how you like it!" is maybe going a bit too far on the melodrama. Let's not wish thievery or worse on eachother, eh?

Well, given the attitude i was given about how I was being the devil incarnate and the very offensive PMs I was sent, including some that made even worse comparisons, simply for trying to do the right thing and avoid anyone possibly getting in trouble, I was a little testy.

But, I've explained my reasons for acting in the way I did. Everyone else can simply take it or leave it.

There is the old adage "Think before you speak".

Even applies to me at times....just saying.

…the very offensive PMs I was sent…

Seriously? That totally sucks, Donovan. There's absolutely no need to be sending offensive PMs to anybody. I'd wager that's a breach of the Community guidelines here, as well.

It seems to me that everyone (me included with my Old West Conversion) is dancing on the edge of FFG's copyright anyway. They have NOT release any kind of open license for this, so what we can actually claim is about zero. We are currently living in the grace that they may not car enough to stamp it out, or perhaps even find it kind of "neat" that we love the system enough to expand it.

The only thing I would be upset about is if he attempted to pass it off as his own and not credit the original creators.

I wish more people creating content tried to use more people that actually had some amount of artistic and layout experience. 90% of these are absolutely horrble to look at, and are spread out to 50% more pages than they need to be because of the awful layout.

I wish more people creating content tried to use more people that actually had some amount of artistic and layout experience. 90% of these are absolutely horrble to look at, and are spread out to 50% more pages than they need to be because of the awful layout.

I can absolutely support this and this is also my motivation to do this kind of stuff. I also love to generate content, though I lack the language skills to produce material in English which is good enough. The way I want to support the community is then by making things look good.

I also like to renew the offer from some pages before: If somebody has created content and want to have it look good and shared with the community, leave me a message. (and to the guy who answered my post with the campaign guide: I can't send you messages, so please get in touch with me.)

Hope you both work something out.

You both seem to be the good guys, giving us free stuff to enhance our games.

and the very offensive PMs I was sent, including some that made even worse comparisons

Okay, that's not cool guys. If you're going to call someone out on something then at least have the stones to do it in front of everyone. And if you're just trolling or flaming them without purpose, then go back to 4chan.

Thread in a nutshell: The Dearth, in his enthusiasm, steps on Donovan's toe. Donovan says, "Hey, man. Gettin' kinda crazy there. Try and keep an eye out."

"Oh! My bad," says The Dearth. "What can we do to work this out?"

"It's cool," says Donovan, "Let's try this..."

Then, as they confer and work things out like gentlemen, the crowd of bystanders immediately takes sides as to who really stepped on who's foot, and whether Donovan may have also stepped on someone's foot at some point, and whether a foot was there at all.

Huzzah for the internet!

Huzzah for da internetz!

In all seriousness, let's all be cool folks: this is a game, and we're here to enjoy it, and discuss it like adults. I appreciate any/all work ANYONE does on these forums to help make my games at home more enjoyable; people's efforts should be respected and given proper acknowledgement for what they are, as should the creators behind them.

Kuddos to Donovan for his efforts with the fan-made material (and to all other authors of the Menagerie); kuddos to Dearth, for his skills with prettying-up documents for his taking the mature approach to things here.

And kuddos to you, dear reader, because you're such a swell chap. Seriously, give yourself a hug. 'atta boy.

I also like to renew the offer from some pages before: If somebody has created content and want to have it look good and shared with the community, leave me a message. (and to the guy who answered my post with the campaign guide: I can't send you messages, so please get in touch with me.)

That, I assume, would be moi. How would you like me to contact you? I can't seem to figure out this board's PM system. :/

"The member Shakespearian_Soldier can not use the messaging system." whenever I try to mail you. Then maybe just send a mail to [email protected].

Huh, I just checked, and I can apparently send a PM to everyone on this page except Shakespearian_Soldier....

Hi!

Feedback appreciated!

Man, that looks effing pretty and professional. You should get a medal or something.

Do you have a PDF mock up of a page or two?

Yeah, I've no idea why I can't receive PMs. Or how to fix it, either. :/

Dearth, I've sent an email. Let me know if it reaches you?

I sympathize with both sides here (particularly as an artist myself). Mistakes get made in the attempt to do something positive all the time, unfortunately. Hopefully everything can get resolved amicably and swiftly.

That said, Donovan, I suppose some clarification as to whether the Menagerie is covered by CC would be helpful for the future.