Hi!

I love the layout of the EotE and decided to take the wonderful, but boring looking "Unofficial Species Menagerie" and layout it and change some of the included pictures. The project is finished and I want to share it with you!

Feedback appreciated!

Edit: Thank you for your feedback so far. I was happy to came to results with this project that I missed to think it complete through, as Donovan pointed out. I did not want to upset anyone or express disrespect for the great work here, and therefore I will take it offline till I could get in touch with the creators and see if we can find a way together.

very nice look.

It's really slick work. One thing I'd point out, though, is that when you did your copy-pasta on the various statblocks, you weren't careful to clear each out before making the next one. You have several species that have stats that shouldn't be there.

Each of these has Intellect at 3 (when it should be lower):

Barabel, Chadra-Fan, Dashade, Devaronian

And each of these has Cunning at 3 when it should be lower:

Neimoidian, Sluissi, Togorian

Looks really good!

Being one of the authors, I would have much preferred if you'd contacted myself or Cyril before doing this. Particularly as this is a Gamer Security Agency exclusive. After all, it's not that hard to send an IM through these forums or even just make a comment on the GSA itself about this project.

I'm sure it wasn't the intent, but it does come across as you "swiping" our work and changing things "just because you could," which in turns comes across as disrespectful. I also tried to get approval for the artwork I did use when and where I could, passing up several pieces simply because of a lack of response or the artist in question said no. And I see a couple of those pieces in there, so if the artists get wind of this, they could very well accuse me of going back on my word that I'd respect their wishes.

I know I don't really have any authority here, but frankly this felt more like a slap in the face than any kind of positive contribution. Hell, you didn't even mention the GSA itself, which I deliberately set-up as being the primary means of accessing this document.

Had you asked up front about doing this sort of thing, I would have gladly said yes, and even informed you that there's updates and changes that have been made.

It does look beautiful...

I really hope that the OP and the original authors can make peace and get this touched up to a 1.1 version that incorporates the newest errata.

Looking at it, I'm surprised that Devaronians don't get a free rank of Blooded since what I've read on them talks about their great resistance to toxins. I'm also surprised that they have Brawn 1 to start since they are also described as being slightly stronger and tougher than humans...

Truthfully the original wasnt much to look at. I hope you can work out an agreement and hope to see the original hard creative content work displayed in a manner fitting to the high standards of Edge of the Empire.

Truthfully the original wasnt much to look at. I hope you can work out an agreement and hope to see the original hard creative content work displayed in a manner fitting to the high standards of Edge of the Empire.

Collaboration is better. But best handled as directly as possible between the collaborative parties. Hope differences can be settled so we can see some real collaboration. thedearth2 has some great ideas, and I absolutely love the Menagerie. It's been a standard choice for all my players in every game I've ever run.

I like the look of the two shots of the updated version. The trade dress really looks slick.

That being said, as an artist and author myself, no Star Wars yet, I understand and agree with Donovan. Not only is it the case that not everything on the web can be assumed to be Creative Commons/Open Source, but in the case of something like this there are other creators involved.

I am very happy to read that Donovan actually contacted the artists about the pieces he included and respected the "no" answers he received in some cases.

I hope the two sides in this can come to terms. I would love to see more fan created sourcebooks produced, especially if they look this nice and have the quality of content.

Here's hoping you reach an accord soon; looking forward to getting hold of this work, should that ever happen.

I'd hope, as Dono seems to imply they were working on an updated version, that it will be re-released, and through the GSA would be awesome. It looks really nice. What publishing software did you use?

I'd hope, as Dono seems to imply they were working on an updated version, that it will be re-released, and through the GSA would be awesome. It looks really nice. What publishing software did you use?

It was all done with Adobe InDesign.

I contacted Dono and wait for his reply.

edit: double post

As far as taking fan material and fancying it up, I think it should be a simple case of simply notifying the creators of the "unofficial document" (which, if I'm looking at the correct and latest version, doesn't say anything on it about the GSA, just the creators' names). This can be safely done after the fact, not before. The images and alien names are not copyright to the Menagerie creators (those copyrights are held by someone else). If the Menagerie creators can lay some kind of claim to the original document, it would be the stats only. To the original Menagerie creators, I hardly see this as a "slap in the face" or "swiping" your work, as OP references it directly in the post title. I would see it as a tip of the hat and a nod of appreciation to work well done. IMO, OP has done nothing wrong in that regard.

Source: I work with copyright. A lot. Too often. It sucks.

To be honest, the Unofficial Menagerie needs a lot of work in regards to layout – and OP has what it takes, in spades, to give it what it needs. If anything, the GSA folks should be looking for his help.

I think the real (and only) issue here is that I'd be very careful about using the look from FFG's core books. The trade dress they're using is copyrighted material, and they could take issue with that. I ran into the same problem when I did a bunch of fan material for MWP's Marvel Heroic RPG and made it look exactly like the stuff that came from them – Cam mentioned to me that they'd prefer me NOT using their trade dress. FFG could take the same issue.

Just my 2¢. Take it or leave it.

Tip of the hat, slap in the face... potato potato. Depends on point of view I guess.

I think that the GSA should have be mentioned, simply because it is the site/online magazine the menagerie was published through, at least as a gesture of appreciation. Of course there is no one twisting anyone's arm here. I hope. It's just decent and polite really.

Update: I realize that the reason I don't see anything about the GSA when I look at the Menagerie PDF is because I bookmarked to it directly through the Google Docs link, not through the GSA site.

My advice to the producers of the Menagerie PDF is, if they are really concerned about the GSA name being tied to the document, to mention the GSA and possibly put a link to the website in the document itself, once it's updated.

Really, really, really want to check out this book. The picture of it in the first post sure help to whet the appetite for some good, ol' fashioned fan-made material.

"If the Menagerie creators can lay some kind of claim to the original document, it would be the stats only. To the original Menagerie creators, I hardly see this as a "slap in the face" or "swiping" your work, as OP references it directly in the post title. I would see it as a tip of the hat and a nod of appreciation to work well done. IMO, OP has done nothing wrong in that regard.

"

Well said!

There honestly is nothing "Original" about it to be honest. The characters were designed from various artists..(nothing from GSA as far as I can tell and if original art is needed,hell ill do a few pieces). The stats origin and how they are used were created from FFG. Every fan item is created from someone elses idea...in this case FFG.....thats my 2 cents!

I'm going to have to disagree with the last 2 posts around the idea that the content for the Menagerie is not original. The authors have put their work and effort into it, given their own spin and contributed something valuable to the community. They should be properly credited for that. As well, it is just good form to contact them and work collaboratively on expanding or enhancing their work. I think thedearth2 made a mistake in posting his contribution (which looks terrific), was called on it and showed character in withdrawing his work and attempting to work things out. Like others above, I eagerly await a positive resolution to this situation so we can all enjoy this great fan made collaboration!

I get the premise, but not the stink being created behind the argument.

Honestly, if he does something to make something better, and gives the original author credit, where is the harm? I don't buy the "you stole that from me, how dare you" argument. Seriously, take a pill. If he steals your stuff, turns around and sells it or starts making money off of it, or copyrights it, you now have a legitimate *****. Since he did none of those things, a simple PM to him would have probably sufficed if he didn't credit all the appropriate people.

Look content we all create for each other is by its very nature free. Unless you are making something then charging for it, it all falls under free use, so long as you give the original author a nod. Its how many ideas, thoughts, and premises come to pass. Its not "stealing". its improving, or changing, or giving a subtle nod. You'll find there are very few truly original thoughts these days.

Put the weapons away. Seriously. If I created something like that, then he came along, made it even better and credited me for the original work, I'm totally fine with it. If he did it then started making money off of it, now I'd have a problem. But if I gave it away for free, he improves it, gives me a nod, and continues to give it away free, there is no problem with that.

Honestly, some people take themselves way too seriously these days.

Being one of the authors, I would have much preferred if you'd contacted myself or Cyril before doing this. Particularly as this is a Gamer Security Agency exclusive. After all, it's not that hard to send an IM through these forums or even just make a comment on the GSA itself about this project.

I'm sure it wasn't the intent, but it does come across as you "swiping" our work and changing things "just because you could," which in turns comes across as disrespectful. I also tried to get approval for the artwork I did use when and where I could, passing up several pieces simply because of a lack of response or the artist in question said no. And I see a couple of those pieces in there, so if the artists get wind of this, they could very well accuse me of going back on my word that I'd respect their wishes.

I know I don't really have any authority here, but frankly this felt more like a slap in the face than any kind of positive contribution. Hell, you didn't even mention the GSA itself, which I deliberately set-up as being the primary means of accessing this document.

Had you asked up front about doing this sort of thing, I would have gladly said yes, and even informed you that there's updates and changes that have been made.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Creative Commons License you utilized with this grant the OP the right to do this? I didn't get to see the OP's version, but didn't he make a nod to the authors (Attribution), did not use it for commercial purposes, and willingly shared it for others to use and edit? Unless the Attribution portion required a nod to the GSA (as an author of sorts), then the OP is still within their rights to do this as remixing is allowed with the selected license.

Just curious, as everyone seems to be arguing over this and seem to be forgetting how things work with Creative Commons.

But as a note on the art: yeah, that is a whole different kettle of fish, as not much of that is available in the Commons, and the artists would be well within their rights to complain and/or put a stop to this being out there. Unless they put it in the same type of license to allow remixing, non-commercial use and attribution allowed, the OP shouldn't have used the art in question.

Just a few notes from your friendly neighborhood librarian.

--LibrariaNPC

(Before you PM me to ask: Yes, I'm a real librarian)

First of all I would like to say that from the pictures the reformatted version looks amazing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Creative Commons License you utilized with this grant the OP the right to do this? I didn't get to see the OP's version, but didn't he make a nod to the authors (Attribution), did not use it for commercial purposes, and willingly shared it for others to use and edit? Unless the Attribution portion required a nod to the GSA (as an author of sorts), then the OP is still within their rights to do this as remixing is allowed with the selected license.

It does make sense under the creative commons for him to reuse the material in this way as long as he attributes credit where it's due. It still is courtesy to ask beforehand. I don't see why so much offense should be taken from this by Donovan Morningfire. It seems like thedearth2 has corrected himself and asked permission where it's due. I'm sure he only had the best intentions in improving upon the original work.

Being one of the authors, I would have much preferred if you'd contacted myself or Cyril before doing this. Particularly as this is a Gamer Security Agency exclusive. After all, it's not that hard to send an IM through these forums or even just make a comment on the GSA itself about this project.

I'm sure it wasn't the intent, but it does come across as you "swiping" our work and changing things "just because you could," which in turns comes across as disrespectful. I also tried to get approval for the artwork I did use when and where I could, passing up several pieces simply because of a lack of response or the artist in question said no. And I see a couple of those pieces in there, so if the artists get wind of this, they could very well accuse me of going back on my word that I'd respect their wishes.

I know I don't really have any authority here, but frankly this felt more like a slap in the face than any kind of positive contribution. Hell, you didn't even mention the GSA itself, which I deliberately set-up as being the primary means of accessing this document.

Had you asked up front about doing this sort of thing, I would have gladly said yes, and even informed you that there's updates and changes that have been made.

Isnt "swiping" and "changing" things "because you could" kind of the point of licensing under CC? Why use that license on fan work then if you're going to get upset about it?

If the ''original author'' didn't ask for consent to use the characters, races, and visual imagery from FFG, Disney, George Lucas... Whoever legally owns the rights to star wars at the moment(doubtful), why would anyone have to ask them to use material derived from a copywritten and tardemarked source?

I mean hey, the reason they can ''swipe'' it from you is the same reason you where able to ''swipe'' it from the actual owners right?

If the ''original author'' didn't ask for consent to use the characters, races, and visual imagery from FFG, Disney, George Lucas... Whoever legally owns the rights to star wars at the moment(doubtful), why would anyone have to ask them to use material derived from a copywritten and tardemarked source?

I mean hey, the reason they can ''swipe'' it from you is the same reason you where able to ''swipe'' it from the actual owners right?

If this is the same menagerie created during Beta, then the majority of the book wasn't created from FFG material, but derived based on what FFG seemed to use to "balance" their races. So, that doesn't mean it was swiped from FFG. And either way the OP was kind enough to take down the work until they could work out the usage. Especially since it sounds like the OP did exactly what Donovan told the artists he wouldn't do (use their work without their permission).