As far as CK combos, I have tripped up on one or two by accident. Ferrox and Shades are almost the same beast, just one has different health and rolls different dice. I played both of those in Tipping the Scales. I did not realize how stupid they are together and most likely will not play them in the same encounter again. I would just imagen it would be like having Chaos Beasts and Sorcerers in the same encounter. I would never do that!

Was it stupid nasty in the OL's favor or redundant stupid, putting the OL at a disadvantage?

-Cursain

It puts the OL at a huge advantage. The fact that the shades fly is amazing. Water didn't slow them down. Had it not been for bad rolls the first two tries, the shades would have single handly taken out two heroes. Ferrox, thanks to reinforce, took out three heroes on their own. Their dice rolls are good and abilities are nothing to shy away from. Had the Sorcerers not had undieing I would have used Ferrox, hands down. Yes, it wasn't for sorcery that is used the sorcerers. Splig can make sure the master stays on the field... when he can remember how to promote someone...

The new Reinforce seems somewhat contingent on the Master Monster for a given group being alive. Course, if you have Splig ...

(speaking of the goblin...) Very good point. But does that mean reinforce in LoR is only good in act ii when you have splig? My major malfunction with the errata on reinforce card is the fact that in LoR your natural reinforcements are very strict. In a whole, that's great! In SR you naturally reinforce whatever red guy just died. he gets a turn, so you then place him where you need him so at end of turn you can play the reinforce card and be ready for your next turn. That works great! In LoR that strict ruling on natural reinforcements pulls the choice for the OL. I know my heroes. They are very smart. "Get her open group and fast! Red guy first! Then she can't use her uber card," that is NOW no longer very uber. I am not asking for a broken advantage. I am asking for a good card to remain good without it being broken.

I LOVE the idea of it, as it is written right now, being like a heroic feat. Might I put a challenging twist to it to maybe challenge the heroes as well. The card currently reads as it does with the following attached. "Return this card to the box. When all of the monsters from that group are defeated, place this card in the discard pile of the Overlord deck." The card is not lost to the OL, so the OL can hope to use it again. This gives the heroes a choice on how they want to deal with the monsters as well. It changes the strategy of the game. The card isn't shuffled into the deck to be drawn shorty after either. I would even be happy with this set up and the monsters come in at end of turn.

I'm more or less OK with different campaigns favoring different Overlord specs. That's what its all about after all - analyzing the situation and making choices based on it. If you know there isn't going to be a lot of ways to get your Master Monsters back, then Warlord becomes less powerful, in the same way that Saboteur loses some of its punch if there aren't a lot of doors around.

It's still a good card. Forcing the heroes to bum rush your Master Monsters isn't a bad thing. I would arguing that forcing your heroes to do anything justifies the card's existence by itself. Predictable heroes are easily thwarted. You can use Reinforce to generate Catch-22s by placing your Masters creatively - say, at the opposite end of the map from an objective they need to hit. Then just send wave after wave of minions at them. The old reinforce is obviously way better, but it doesn't cause the heroes to go out of their way. The heroes just sorta grit their teeth and prepare for an inevitable onslaught of brute force. The errata version offers a wider range of strategic possibilities because it gives the heroes a solution to the problem that isn't purely reactionary. To be able to counter a Level 3 OL card by just taking out that one red dude in the back - it's very tempting for them. And that gives you a wider range of strategic possibilities. It's just better for the game overall so I'm pro-errata in this case.

Jee

Yeah, some of the the Heroes from the CK seem arbitrarily designated, archetype wise. D1 didn't have healers - it was all just fighter, rogue, mage. They had to take some liberties in the name of balance. Isphur could be some kinda spirit walker. Lyssa .... thats a weird one, for sure. She's sitting on a rock - Geomancer ? Every time I see Eliam , I want to build a strat around him so bad, just to see if it can be done. I dunno even know where to start - maybe he'd be good as a Beast Master or something. I need to think on this.

Jee

Eliam's big issues:

He's a warrior with a brown defense die, with nothing to make up for that heinous hindrance.

No attributes above 3.

Until LoR's Beastmaster class came about, he couldn't use his hero ability from the start.

While yes, he's a 5-move, 5-fatigue hero with a decent Heroic Feat, they don't make up for his long-term problems.

Our group is planning the 'Lame Heroes of Terrinoth' campaign, where the bottom-tier of each class come together to try and save the land from a monstrous evil. We're still figuring out the logistics on who is the worst of the worst, but Eliam is definitely leading the charge. So far we're looking at Landrec the Wise (3 move and the other brown-defense-die hero), Brother Glyr (2 movement with a heroic feat that only seems good until you see he has 3 fatigue) and Laurel of Bloodwood (4 move is okay, but 8 health and only 3 fatigue!?)

Our group is planning the 'Lame Heroes of Terrinoth' campaign, where the bottom-tier of each class come together to try and save the land from a monstrous evil.

Are you also planning to make it a true comedy of errors and have the OL always have the lamest monsters as well? (Zombies and Razorwings come to mind; or Flesh Moulders when not paired with a large-monster group)?

Eliam's big issues:

He's a warrior with a brown defense die, with nothing to make up for that heinous hindrance.

No attributes above 3.

Until LoR's Beastmaster class came about, he couldn't use his hero ability from the start.

A brown dice is ... unfortunate ... but I'm not convinced that it makes him as bad as everyone thinks. It's basically +1 extra wound per attack done to him (which is pretty bad), but both his ability and his feat punish the OL for ganging up on him. And then, there is the 5 speed + 5 stamina. That is pretty darn good. So good, in fact, that I'm 85% sure that both the brown dice and his sub-par skill checks were specifically put there to balance that aforementioned boon.

I agree that Beastmaster is his only option if he doesn't want to be statistically crippled early on. I would try hard to build his weapons as utility + hp-gain ( Trident/Life Drain Scepter in Act I, Rageblade/Mace of Kellos in Act II). This would make him extremely versatile and really capitalize on his speed + extra attacks. You'd have to compensate for the brown dice with rings/belts OR pick other party members that aren't afraid of damage OR run 2 warriors (ditch the mage and grab Sir Valadir as a Berserker or Champion?). Roganna the Shade would make a good scout here. Her Heroic Feat would pair well with Eliam's .

Our group is planning the 'Lame Heroes of Terrinoth' campaign, where the bottom-tier of each class come together to try and save the land from a monstrous evil. We're still figuring out the logistics on who is the worst of the worst, but Eliam is definitely leading the charge. So far we're looking at Landrec the Wise (3 move and the other brown-defense-die hero), Brother Glyr (2 movement with a heroic feat that only seems good until you see he has 3 fatigue) and Laurel of Bloodwood (4 move is okay, but 8 health and only 3 fatigue!?)

Agree with your take on Landrec . He must have Mana Weave (or something like that) or his abilities work against each other. Laurel is squishy, but once per encounter she can pretty much whack any monster on the board with a guaranteed hit that gets auto +1 damage. That's pretty good clutch right there. She is probably the highest damage Wildlander the game has to offer. But yeah, her mobility and frailty definitely require a deft hand.

I don't agree with your take on Brother Glyr ; I've played against him recently and the 2 speed thing is a non-issue except when he needs to initiate trade. His ability lets him use both his actions for heals without having to sacrifice mobility. His heroic a free rest action (which is great by itself, especially because he's already given free movement) and -1 damage taken for all of the hero turn (so traps are pretty crippled) and all of the OL turn. He's also a 4 strength, 3 perception healer - that's basically a force field. By the middle of Act II, he was nigh unstoppable and tossing out +8-9 hearts in total healing per turn. I would replace him with Isphur if you're really interested in breaking bad.

Jee

I suppose Eliam and his abilities look a lot better under a more investigative report, but our OL is no dummy; She's quite good at minimizing our abilities and being a generally crafty OL; His regular ability would have him wandering right into enemy hands to attack one monster and ping another one; While good for picking off monsters with one HP remaining, the our OL wouldn't put herself in those situations unless she had no other option. Knowing his feat means using ranged monsters; They're surprisingly numerous and very effective at shutting down the red-class "counter-ables" like his feat, the Knight's Guard or the Berserker's Counterattack. Our Brown defense die is cursed as far as we can tell; It rolls blanks on hero-side so much, our 'default mode' for it is that it's simply a formality; a chance to MAYBE help out. The only thing that could save this hapless elf is if he could get the Stealthy ability somehow.

We were really reaching when it came to the Scout choices, Laurel sort of stood out only because of her statistics. A scout, especially with Wildlander being a fatigue-heavy set, is incredibly hampered by 3 fatigue. Our previous scout made liberal use of the class's Danger Sense ability, and was one of the main reasons we managed to barely win some of the quests in the last campaign. The extra +1 damage from her ability doesn't seem like a lot on paper, and while her feat can't miss, rolling an X adds no damage or surges to the roll which take a lot of bite out of the attack, especially in Act II. With 8 health, a lot of act II monsters can drop her in one shot, so she needs to get armor (Cloak of Deception) to stay alive. She'll often be up against Reflective Ward with only 3 Fatigue, and Willpower 2 means she'll be beset quite often by Uncontrollable Power, and only having 3 fatigue and 8 health in the face of that card is a recipe for disaster. Who do you think makes a worse Scout than her?

I'm genuinely impressed you've put together a comprehensive reason to use Brother Glyr . I've played Okaluk and Rakash , and I've seen the power that having movement regardless of actions taken brings to the party. Like the Scout, a healer-class is rather fatigue-dependent. While I'm impressed with his stat spread and his feat gives him a free 3-fatigue-recovery and one-turn -1 damage shield, it's really self-centered; There are healers whose feats help the whole group, or at least another hero in dire straits: Andira 's, Avric 's, not to mention Elder Mok 's. Even Jonas the Kind can come through with his feat. I just feel that the other Healer heroes do what he does better. Still, I can agree with using Ispher as the Healer for this 'bad hero' run; a 4/8/4, average attributes and his ability and feat are pretty selfish for the Healer role. Doesn't help that he looks like a bad guy, either.

Our group is planning the 'Lame Heroes of Terrinoth' campaign, where the bottom-tier of each class come together to try and save the land from a monstrous evil.

Are you also planning to make it a true comedy of errors and have the OL always have the lamest monsters as well? (Zombies and Razorwings come to mind; or Flesh Moulders when not paired with a large-monster group)?

yes and no? The idea was to make these characters good. Good enough to undo medium class or better monsters. The OL would most likely take a lack-luster class card set. I was thinking Punisher. Despite the name, I feel it is the weakest of the OL's arsenal, particularly late game. All of the OL decks have really great points to them, so it was hard to choose one. But out of all of the level three skills, it came down to Saboteur and Punisher. Since Saboteur efficiently throws the heroes off of search, I chose Punisher.

Laurel is squishy, but once per encounter she can pretty much whack any monster on the board with a guaranteed hit that gets auto +1 damage.

I don't think it works that way. On her heroic feat it says "ignoring the range rolled" and on her hero ability it says (emphasis mine) "the total range result is more than was necessary".

If all of your range is ignored, it can't be more (it doesn't say you have infinite range). You literally have no range, not 0 range, not as much range as you desire / need; it's completely ignored. And the Hero Ability specifically requires you to have range, so as far as I'm reading this, the two can not be used together.

I suppose Eliam and his abilities look a lot better under a more investigative report, but our OL is no dummy; She's quite good at minimizing our abilities and being a generally crafty OL; His regular ability would have him wandering right into enemy hands to attack one monster and ping another one; While good for picking off monsters with one HP remaining, the our OL wouldn't put herself in those situations unless she had no other option. Knowing his feat means using ranged monsters; They're surprisingly numerous and very effective at shutting down the red-class "counter-ables" like his feat, the Knight's Guard or the Berserker's Counterattack. Our Brown defense die is cursed as far as we can tell; It rolls blanks on hero-side so much, our 'default mode' for it is that it's simply a formality; a chance to MAYBE help out. The only thing that could save this hapless elf is if he could get the Stealthy ability somehow.

Eliam is really the only choice for the Warrior aspect of this "C Team" you're compiling - on this we agree. Ranged monsters are the counter to melee supremacy - for sure - but unlike every other melee hero, Eliam is really fast . He can run down a freakin' goblin without breaking a sweat. And I find that no matter how careful I am to avoid getting my ranged monsters clustered (to avoid Blast or Whirlwind or whatever), it's basically impossible to make the most of my monster attacks and not to leave at couple of those situations lying around. Eliam's abilities will come into play enough to make them useful unless the Overlord is willing to play sub-optimally just to screw him over. Either way, its a boon for the heroes.

Who do you think makes a worse Scout than her?

I would go with Kirga. As you said, a 3 stamina Scout better have some mad phat abilities to back that up and unfortunately, his are only sorta OK . He has an ability that lets him avoid attacks but he also has higher-than-average health; its a little wonky. But he has good skill checks so ... I could see an argument either way. Laurel has similar weaknesses, but I think her abilities are more internally consistent.

While I'm impressed with his stat spread and his feat gives him a free 3-fatigue-recovery and one-turn -1 damage shield, it's really self-centered; There are healers whose feats help the whole group, or at least another hero in dire straits: Andira 's, Avric 's, not to mention Elder Mok 's. Even Jonas the Kind can come through with his feat. I just feel that the other Healer heroes do what he does better.

True. But I'm not sure a Healer ability being "self-centered" matters. Brother Glyr 's fatigue is going to be used for healing, so anything that gets his fatigue back is just as good as something that directly heals another player, if not better. Also his guaranteed movement points allow him to comfortably make 2 action-based heals per turn - another example of passing on the benefits of his internal mechanics.

I don't think it works that way. On her heroic feat it says "ignoring the range rolled" and on her hero ability it says (emphasis mine) "the total range result is more than was necessary".

If all of your range is ignored, it can't be more (it doesn't say you have infinite range). You literally have no range, not 0 range, not as much range as you desire / need; it's completely ignored. And the Hero Ability specifically requires you to have range, so as far as I'm reading this, the two can not be used together.

I re-read it and I think you're right. The "ignoring the range rolled" is part of the same sentence that says "Make a ranged attack ..", ergo it applies to the attack roll, ergo it means that attack has a range total of 0. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Kunzite Wrote:

The OL would most likely take a lack-luster class card set. I was thinking Punisher. Despite the name, I feel it is the weakest of the OL's arsenal, particularly late game. All of the OL decks have really great points to them, so it was hard to choose one. But out of all of the level three skills, it came down to Saboteur and Punisher. Since Saboteur efficiently throws the heroes off of search, I chose Punisher.

I agree with that, but only for the LoR campaign missions. SH/Rumors are all about foot-racing the Heroes in some way and Punisher really excels in that situation ... and not really anywhere else. It's good against a heavy-fatigue-usage party as well.

Jee

I have to hand it to you, Jee. You've given me a lot to think about with Brother Glyr . At first, I thought he was just a less-useful Okaluk and Rakash , really. I'm still trying to figure out how he's capable of doing all this healing and being so good; We've only really played Apothecary and Disciple with the blue classes because we bought the game from a friend second-hand and she accidentally lost most of the Spiritspeaker cards during that time.

Nara the Fang does nearly everything better than Eliam does, including chasing down runners: 5 Movement and a damage buff for running after monsters, plus the 'Dragoon Jump' heroic that will see more use because has unlimited range as long as the target is in LoS and +2 damage, stacks with the Hero Ability and doesn't require monsters to attack from adjacent first. 4 fatigue and 10 health is a fair tradeoff for 4 Might and Awareness, and obviously, a gray defense die... But that's neither here nor there, because we've pretty much agreed that Eliam is the worst Warrior class hero anyway.

I didn't think about using Kirga because his health is better than Laurel 's and trades a point in Willpower for Awareness -- I've had significant experience in rolling against a 2 attribute (Thank you, Blinding Speed), and it might as well be a 1 with rolling black/gray. At least his feat allows him to move out of trouble, into range to attack or activate his Hero Ability to safeguard a vital 'carry x off the map' token or even get off the map with said token when anything activates; our campaigns have shown us that having free move activations is one of the most valuable assets in the game.

I have to hand it to you, Jee. You've given me a lot to think about with Brother Glyr . At first, I thought he was just a less-useful Okaluk and Rakash , really. I'm still trying to figure out how he's capable of doing all this healing and being so good; We've only really played Apothecary and Disciple with the blue classes because we bought the game from a friend second-hand and she accidentally lost most of the Spiritspeaker cards during that time.

Thanks - I appreciate the nod

Okaluk and Rakash are great too. They're faster, but Brother Glyr is more durable and his heroic feat is (I think) better. I was up against him as a Disciple and the main tactic was an immediate spec to, and liberal use of, Radiant Light - which he could power for free once per encounter due to his feat. The average turn was for him was Radiant Light -> Prayer of Healing -> Rest -> 2 Free Movement Points. If he planned on using his heroic, he would forgo the Rest and take an attack with Blessed Strike for even more healing (and damage) OR tap the Staff of Light. 1-3 hearts per hero per turn + 1-3 on single hero per turn = anywhere from 4-12 hearts per turn total. And that's not counting Blessed Strike , the Staff, or the damage to all my monsters

Now Okaluk and Rakash can do this too, but they are so much easier to kill. A 12 HP Healer with 4 Strength was just a nightmare to deal with. I couldn't even throw him!

It's probably even money either way, given the speed advantage of Okaluk and Rakash, but +4 HP on a Healer is a big deal. If you want to keep heroes down for any meaningful amount of time, you have to knock out the Healer because he/she can just get them up with something they were going to do anyway. Ergo, the total number of actions your party will lose as a result a being KOed over an entire campaign is inversely proportional to how durable your healer is. In fact, I might even go as far as to say that in many cases, HP on a Healer is even more important than HP on a Warrior .

I'm not saying Glyr is the best, but I certainly wouldn't put him anywhere near Ispher on the bad scale.

plus the 'Dragoon Jump'

Props for the Final Fantasy reference. Kain4ever.

I didn't think about using Kirga because his health is better than Laurel 's and trades a point in Willpower for Awareness -- I've had significant experience in rolling against a 2 attribute (Thank you, Blinding Speed), and it might as well be a 1 with rolling black/gray. At least his feat allows him to move out of trouble, into range to attack or activate his Hero Ability to safeguard a vital 'carry x off the map' token or even get off the map with said token when anything activates; our campaigns have shown us that having free move activations is one of the most valuable assets in the game.

Rolling on a 1 is an 11% chance of success. Rolling on a 2 is a 22% chance. That's a pretty significant step up, but I know what you mean. A 2 in any attribute doesn't inspire confidence. And his ability to sprint off the map carrying something could be pretty clutch (especially combined with his safeguard powers). You have a good point here.

Jee

We've only really played Apothecary and Disciple with the blue classes because we bought the game from a friend second-hand and she accidentally lost most of the Spiritspeaker cards during that time.

http://auggiesgamesonline.3dcartstores.com/Small-Deck-of-cards-from-Descent-2nd-Edition_p_6865.html

Rolling on a 1 is an 11% chance of success. Rolling on a 2 is a 22% chance. That's a pretty significant step up, but I know what you mean. A 2 in any attribute doesn't inspire confidence. And his ability to sprint off the map carrying something could be pretty clutch (especially combined with his safeguard powers). You have a good point here.

Going from 1 to 2 is only an additional 11% though. It's when you hit 3 (52%) that you get the most bang for your buck.