I was plotting the end of my heroes when I found something interesting.

Point one: In this final reinforcements come in the shape of master monsters from four groups, aside from cave spiders who come with three minion spiders.

Point two: each monster group are given element stones that give them a special boost.

Point three: after reading what each element stone does, quest rules read: "Each monster also gains the ability that matches the color of the objective token (element stones) on their corresponding monster card, with the exception of minion cave spiders."

My question lays with my "Reinforce" overlord card. If I reinforce a group, except cave spiders, to have minions (because the game does not give them to you in this final), will those minion monsters gain the abilities of the element stones?

Yeah, that seems clear to me. You put the stones on the monster card, and the monster card "corresponds" to the monsters on the board that it describes, so by the RAW you're golden.

****, wish I'd gone Warlord.

Yes I would agree that minions other than cave spiders would get the elemental bonus, per the rules you've quoted.

My only hold out would be what the quest rules are for reinforcements/group limits in this quest (I don't own LoR yet so I can't read them myself.)

If the quest rules somehow say that the "master only" groups have a monster limit of 1 master monster in this quest, thus overwriting the general monster limit rules, then I think the card would fall flat. Otherwise, you're probably golden, as Jee says.

If the quest rules somehow say that the "master only" groups have a monster limit of 1 master monster in this quest, thus overwriting the general monster limit rules, then I think the card would fall flat. Otherwise, you're probably golden, as Jee says.

It does say that once these monsters (the masters of each group) are defeated, they are set aside and are unable to be reinforced again. So if I want to use my reinforcement card on that group once it's cleared out, I am guessing I cannot bring back the red guy, which I am ok with. The biggest annoyance will the the master cave spider with his extra black defiance dice. My open group is going to be nasty enough. At least I think it will be.

Thanks guys!

Jee: I was hoping I would get "A Glimmer of Hope" but I won "Tipping the Scales" by a land slide (I play to win and win hard. It was the first time my combo went off, locking out my heroes). Warlord is insane with a couple of Dark Rituals. What class did you pick?

Once the Warlord nerfs hit, I had an excuse to let my hair down and try something else. I had a fair amount of success before with Magus in The Shadow Rune so I thought I would try one of the others.

I started with Saboteur because my group wanted to try a double-mage / no-healer balls-to-the-wall ram-rod, but they complained so loudly after I demolished them in their first Rumor Quest (which they chose to go to after only a single Act I quest - newbies, oy) that I let them trade a mage for a healer. In return I got a beer, a respite from the complaining, and the ability to re-spec my deck.

Since they traded in their 2nd mage for Sahla and chose The Prophet ( Trollfens , got it early at Gencon) as his spec, I decided that mad traps wasn't the right move anymore. For those who don't know, The Prophet starts the game with a tome trinket that does the opposite of the Overlord Card "Befuddle" from Basic II. They also have access to what we called the " DCBA " or " D ancing C ognitive B all of A wesome " which bounces around the heroes frequently and incrementally pushes their health/fatigue up by nickel/dime-y values. I felt it would mitigate my traps too much so I switched to Punisher , hoping I could take advantage of the party's penchant for blowing all their fatigue early using "No Rest For The Wicked" and "Exploit Weakness." I kept "Web Trap" tho, and picked up a "Blood Rage" at some point.

They pretty much ran the table on Act I after grabbing a healer so I decided to wait for Act II to make my move, crafting my deck for a late-game comeback. It worked, kinda. After winning the Interlude they chose, yet again, to do one of the Act II Rumor Quests first and I came outta the gate with guns blazing. After a mighty victory for the Forces of Evil, I picked up "The Wyrm Queen's Favor," named my newly re-occuring Dragon Hybrid Sentinel "Draconius," and forced them to undergo the 2nd Act II Rumor Quest. After that, I crushed them again in "Let the Truth Be Buried."

So its working for now but they're starting to get some nasty Act II weapons and armor. I'm starting to miss the monster buff Warlord would have provided and the heroes are getting wise to fact that using fatigue makes them extra vulnerable to my attacks. I was gonna try "Web of Power" next and use my momentum to complete Ariad 's spider-y fate - we'll see how it pans out.

Jee

sounds very spread out. That's what I like about LoR. It gives the OL the ability to be more free with his EXP. I have nine card to play with and I have only won three quests. My heroes bent over backwards to make sure I wouldn't get the "Queen's Favor" because Reinforce. I was ok with that though. It meant NO gold for them and no new toys for the final, while I have a card they have not seen. It's not a HUGE boon for me, but it could make or brake this game.

Cycling out 9 cards though... it's hard.

I played Magus in my last campaign and loved it. Aside from a few stupid moves (we where all young and stupid... I mean new) I feel I would have won, but it's cool. Heroes killed my dragon.

This final is going to be epic. They have good stuff and I have awesome cards. It's all a matter of who sets the pace first. I wish you the best of luck! Sounds like you have a better lead then I do!

Oh snap. I never even thought about "Reinforce" with "The Wyrm Queens Favor" - the nerf is actually a buff in that small instance. I'll keep that in mind.

I tried to cycle cards, but they were all so important ... stupid Basic II. I think I ditched "Sign of Weakness" frequently and that's it. Befuddles were too important; LoR seems to be pretty skill-check heavy. I threw away Overwhelm a few times too. Other than that I just drove a giant deck over them lol.

Good luck with your finale. It sounds like its going to be pretty rad.

Jee

Sadly befuddle and dirty fighting are normally the ones to see the boot. That and the two you already spoke of. What I like to do is set them all out and build it from most important to least, but most of the time I can't do that. Heroes are right there ^.^;;

Cutting cards is so hard with basic ii!! everything is so valuable.

I think dirty fighting is going to be very important with Ariad. I never exchanged my sunstone, so Ariad still rolls blue and 3 green. As I have found out, that does not always seal the bag for surges. And my open group is going to need them. I think I am going to build my deck souly around laying down the pain, card draw and that one dark something that heals, because Ariad.

I am super excited. Maybe more so then our first final. Looks like you have cards for the killing too. You must tell me how it goes!

I would enjoy grunching this. Who are your heroes and what are their builds/weapons?

Jee

Nanok as Champion (I think. The one that has advance and shield slam). His weapon is pretty good, one handed sword. Currently rolls black gray def.

Andira Runehand as Disciple with Valyndra's Bane. Yep. No big monsters for me. It's made me dig pretty deep into my toy box. Currently rolls gray gray def.

Arvle Worldwalker as, um... The scout class with Nimble. His favorite early game action is randomly taking a card from my hand. She holds a killer bow. Killer as in many of his attacks can easily make 10 damage each.

Currently rolls gray brown def I think.

Challara as geomancer. She has a decent act two rune with blast. Important for my large groups of small bodied beasts. Currently she roles black gray def.

And then there is poor Serena. She roles gray brown, I think. Still melee and still health of 8.

Nanok, Arvle and Runehand are all so heavily fitted for fighting that it's beyond happiness. I am really glad I went with warlord now because of how heavy artillery they are. If Tipping the Scales showed us anything, it's the fact that my deck, when playing in my favor, is a force of natural evil. With all their health, fatigue (and they are all pretty well fitted, even the warrior) and move will not save them when a blood rage plus bloodlust hits. But that's if my deck is playing right.

Hmm - perplexing. What Lieutenants do you have available? And what relics?

Also it seems like Nanoc is wearing armor despite his special ability. Is this the case?

Jee

No relics. Heroes made sure of that, but the only relic they have in Valyndra's bane. I won Let the Truth be Buried, therefore I have a reluctant Splig. Merrick and Raythen are the other two besides the obvious Ariad.

Nanok has a shield. I believe that is where he is getting her other dice. He still gets the free surge.

After all that, all the victories we claimed during the campaign, the heroes lost. Terribly. In the hands of a smart player like our OL, this set is extremely brutal; Kunzite played to win, and won without breaking a sweat. We spent most of the finale stuck on Tile 39 -- the worst tile in the whole box with its problematic bottleneck at the bottom of the steps. We had Serena rolling Gray/Brown with 8 Health (Reclamation was an absolute failure thanks to 5-movement monsters keeping us blocked in that same bottleneck in Tile 39), and I think the only thing we did wrong was putting emphasis on keeping her alive.

We weren't under-geared, either: All of us were rolling at least Gray/Gray (Chainmail, Cloak of Deception and the Rune Plate) Nanok was rolling Black/Brown thanks to Defense Training. We all had good weapons (Valyndra's Bane, the Rage Blade, Lightning Strike and the Eclipse Bow), and trinkets (Merciful Boots, Ring of Power, Mana Weave, Elven Boots, even the Tival Crystal). For all the sound and fury of OLs that whine that their heroes are getting too much gold, none of that matters if they can't win the finale.

We tried our best, but all the good equipment in the world just wasn't good enough to overcome the pre-errata Warlord/Magus mega-draw combination. We went as long as we could after TWO Unholy Rituals without Bloodlust triggering, but when our healer died to poison damage (Yay might of 2!), the combination finally went off. Kunzite held her entire deck in her hand before too long, and we were subjected to Blood Rage, Reinforce and more Bloodlust/Unholy Ritual every turn . Any chance to strike back was met with Uncontrollable Power and/or Reflective Ward, which lead to more Bloodlust; All the while, what damage we had done to Ariad was being undone by Dark Resilience and any monsters we managed to kill were brought back with Reinforce. I've said it before, I'll say it again; Warlord makes all the other OL sets look like chumps.

At the end of the campaign, the heroes were salty; The word 'anticlimactic' came up a lot. Kunzite is a really cool OL, but when she plays to win, she really knows how to put the hurting on. While she is justifiably upset with how FFG handled the errata on the individual cards that make up the Warlord/Magus mega-draw combination, I'd like to see how 'poorly' it handles in practice before immediately trying to house-rule a 'balance'.

*sneaks in* but they played really well.

The problem with that combo is it going off. They pulled the unholy ritual from my hand in travel (opening hand was unholy ritual, bloodlust, blood rage and something else. Almost the full combo) which slowed me down.

If there isn't SOME way to abuse reinforce in Endless Night or the heroes over all did really bad on the quests leading up to this, I really don't see how the OL would have won. Ariad having 68 health is no replacement for limited reinforcement. Not when heroes can tag her from anywhere of 5-10 health of blow. But... Ariad was rolling black,black, gray, gray. Those wards where the only thing to hurt her for a while.

On the other hand, had I gone with a different plan, I would have set my assault different.

All in all, I have the best heroes. Despite their loss (and it wasn't pretty) they handled it really well. I kind of feel I enjoyed this campaign like I enjoyed Final Fantasy II. The ending sucked, but the journey getting there was fantastic, making one of my most favorite games.

*sneaks out*

After all that, all the victories we claimed during the campaign, the heroes lost. Terribly. In the hands of a smart player like our OL, this set is extremely brutal; Kunzite played to win, and won without breaking a sweat. We spent most of the finale stuck on Tile 39 -- the worst tile in the whole box with its problematic bottleneck at the bottom of the steps. We had Serena rolling Gray/Brown with 8 Health (Reclamation was an absolute failure thanks to 5-movement monsters keeping us blocked in that same bottleneck in Tile 39), and I think the only thing we did wrong was putting emphasis on keeping her alive.

We weren't under-geared, either: All of us were rolling at least Gray/Gray (Chainmail, Cloak of Deception and the Rune Plate) Nanok was rolling Black/Brown thanks to Defense Training. We all had good weapons (Valyndra's Bane, the Rage Blade, Lightning Strike and the Eclipse Bow), and trinkets (Merciful Boots, Ring of Power, Mana Weave, Elven Boots, even the Tival Crystal). For all the sound and fury of OLs that whine that their heroes are getting too much gold, none of that matters if they can't win the finale.

We tried our best, but all the good equipment in the world just wasn't good enough to overcome the pre-errata Warlord/Magus mega-draw combination. We went as long as we could after TWO Unholy Rituals without Bloodlust triggering, but when our healer died to poison damage (Yay might of 2!), the combination finally went off. Kunzite held her entire deck in her hand before too long, and we were subjected to Blood Rage, Reinforce and more Bloodlust/Unholy Ritual every turn . Any chance to strike back was met with Uncontrollable Power and/or Reflective Ward, which lead to more Bloodlust; All the while, what damage we had done to Ariad was being undone by Dark Resilience and any monsters we managed to kill were brought back with Reinforce. I've said it before, I'll say it again; Warlord makes all the other OL sets look like chumps.

At the end of the campaign, the heroes were salty; The word 'anticlimactic' came up a lot. Kunzite is a really cool OL, but when she plays to win, she really knows how to put the hurting on. While she is justifiably upset with how FFG handled the errata on the individual cards that make up the Warlord/Magus mega-draw combination, I'd like to see how 'poorly' it handles in practice before immediately trying to house-rule a 'balance'.

Also there's some OL cards that have some errata. We like to call it errata to death! But it is what it is.

Good game

Yes but not everybody owns the CK. CK ups the anti for the OL quite a bit. Next time you play try second edition only then your results will change. I think SE is more balanced if any want more of that and less the pow you get from CK. my heroes want more ouch though so if models where easier to come by I would get CK.

Also there's some OL cards that have some errata. We like to call it errata to death! But it is what it is.

Good game

Where'd this talk about the Conversion Kit come from?

None of the things I mentioned in that entire post are from the Conversion Kit, because it just wasn't a major factor in this finale; We were some pretty good CK heroes (We had Nanok for chrissakes, he's not ludicrously busted as OLs will claim) and she had a single open group of CK monsters. The OL cards were Basic II, Warlord and Magus cards, all found outside the CK. Regardless of what monsters she had access to in the finale, it was the card-generation that sealed her victory.

Don't worry PlainWhiteBread. People like to freak out about CK, though there are a few busted combos your team, nor Kunzite were using them.

Cursain

Yes but not everybody owns the CK. CK ups the anti for the OL quite a bit. Next time you play try second edition only then your results will change. I think SE is more balanced if any want more of that and less the pow you get from CK. my heroes want more ouch though so if models where easier to come by I would get CK.

Also there's some OL cards that have some errata. We like to call it errata to death! But it is what it is.

Good game

Where'd this talk about the Conversion Kit come from?

None of the things I mentioned in that entire post are from the Conversion Kit, because it just wasn't a major factor in this finale; We were some pretty good CK heroes (We had Nanok for chrissakes, he's not ludicrously busted as OLs will claim) and she had a single open group of CK monsters. The OL cards were Basic II, Warlord and Magus cards, all found outside the CK. Regardless of what monsters she had access to in the finale, it was the card-generation that sealed her victory.

Read a lot of these battle reports in the Internet and its pretty clear to (me) that it (CK) has issues for lack of a better word. Anyways glad you all enjoyed yourselves. It's late and I'm up with my sick 3 year old and I have no idea(bored maybe,yeah i like that excuse)why I'm ranting about CK.

It came from me! I was under the impression you were using OL cards without the errata for Blood Ritual and others. I read so much about CK I feel like I own it already and seems broken. Which is why I'm reluctant to buy it but more pain my heroes cry! Maybe ill get it if models are made available (I really don't want it). It feels like the ghost of D1 and its trying to huant my D2 exsperiance! Also there is me the OL who may not enjoy game with it and may force my group with whatever new D2 stuff comes out.

Read a lot of these battle reports in the Internet and its pretty clear to (me) that it (CK) has issues for lack of a better word. Anyways glad you all enjoyed yourselves. It's late and I'm up with my sick 3 year old and I have no idea(bored maybe,yeah i like that excuse)why I'm ranting about CK.

I think PWB's comment was more about the lack of errata then the CK. They all had CK heroes, and even though Sorcerers where my open group, they where not an issue, pre-se, in this encounter (though they where better then my carrion drakes... those guys suck). The warlord class cards (available in the base game) was to blame. The errata hits all of the elements of the combo I was running and I can see why. We wanted to play a campaign where we played without the errata and we did. Two of the four quests we won (out of 11, due to rumors) my combo went off.

It was a hard hit for the heroes both times. Once the combo went off, my heroes could do nothing but watch me reinforce every turn. It would not have mattered if I had d1 or d2 monsters. And it did not matter how many times my heroes killed my monsters. They came back *every time.* When I played it, I felt dirty, as if I was cheating. It didn't feel right, but it also didn't feel right to dumb down my attacks because my heroes would not want me to.

My "upset-ness" of the errata isn't the fact that the cards as nerfed. In light of the combo in all of it's glory, the errata is valid. Each point is made to where *that* combo is tolerable. Outside that combo (mostly talking about Unholy Ritual) the cards are not so broken. The last campaign we played I played almost straight Magus and no one had an issue with me drawing and keeping four cards because without all of the pieces of the combo I can't or have a hard time holding a deck that cheats out the game. Maybe hurt everyone really bad or keep them from getting lots of loot (saboteur class).

That's PWB's point. While I agree that some CK monsters are broken (Deep Elves in act I come to mind) I don't think it's that bad. If I could speak for my heroes, the verity was nice and something to look forward to. I really like to mix it up. I also have favorites, and barghiest happens to be one of them. Why? I like undead puppies? I always seem to draw them so happy. I also like kobolds, because they are funny. Maybe I can test out a campaign or three to see if just D2 things is better. I don't see why not.

First of all , congrats to Kunzite! Evil wins, Good is dumb, and the power of the Sun is yours to command - Vae Victis.

Secondly , while I came back to post my analysis of your situation and found instead that the adventure was already complete, I'm glad that my instinct to take something with Sorcery was on the money (had Sorcerers / Chaos Beasts as my possible picks for that one open group). In a death match, its all about the DPS.

To that fact - until the various campaign Finales become about something other than simply putting the Heroes down, I suspect Warlord is always going to seem like its overpowered. I mean that's what it's for, right? In the normal missions, being able to pour on the raw hurt is about as useful as being able to block/run-fast because the objectives are varied enough to make multiple paths to victory viable, especially over 11 different quests. But the Finale is different - the heroes have to stand and fight and its the only quest that actually matters . Given this eventuality, the choice between Overlord specs functionally becomes:

1) Traps
2) Magic
3) Win the Finale

which would you pick?

If FF really wants to fix Warlord , it will start making Finales with multiple paths to victory for the Overlord.

Thirdly , the CK does not make the Overlord overpowered. If anything, it's underpowered. The monsters that come with SE are pretty solid; there isn't a lot that they can't do overall that something in the CK can. Little nuances and situational variables can make certain monsters slightly better or worse, but the influence of the CK upon the Overlord's overall power level is lateral. It certainly gives you a lot more choice tho, which is way more interesting and fun.

Jee

All I can think of now is Ariad and a bottle of Sunny Delight - Unleash the power of the sun!

Inspector Jee, your deductions are worthy of your title.

- Sorcery is straight-up free damage, and with most of the nasties using Sorcery 2 or 3 means if you're attacking from a respectable range (out of Melee), you got yourself at least an automatic +1 damage for no cost, which is unheard of on any hero ability or weapon outside of the Dragontooth Hammer (free +1 if your other hand is free)

- The reason Warlord is considered the best class is because knocking out heroes is a benefit regardless of the goal ; Need to escape the map? Gather fatigue tokens? Stall for time in general? Putting down a hero or two is a great way to buy the turns needed to win, and nobody does it like the Warlord does thanks to Blood Rage. While a Saboteur OL can do some nasty things regarding movement, it only really gets to Warlord-tier hurtin' when doing stuff like searches or opening doors; Endless Night has no doors in it; If the heroes ignore the search tokens, the Saboteur's level 3 card (Uthuk Demon Trap) is useless.

If the OL's win-con was more than 'kill the heroes' in the finale, the other OL classes have a chance to shine. Getting fatigue tokens as a 'ritual is performed' sounds like a good goal, but at that point it just sounds like any other encounter or quest. I guess some expert writing would be needed to convey the sheer gravity of the situation. If they wanted to fix the Warlord cards, the errata for Bloodlust should stand; Draw 5, keep 2; That's enough to pull a third of the OL deck, pick out what you need and toss the rest; It will cycle back around eventually, and it's possible to pull what you don't need; like rolling an X on the blue die, it happens. Reinforce, Kunzite and I agree that it should spawn at the END of the OL turn, to allow heroes to react to it. One of our other heroes suggested it to be the Warlord's 'Heroic Feat' by only allowing it once per encounter.

- I agree, Jee. The CK gives the OL some crazy tools in Stealthy, Sorcery X, Ironskin, Immovable, Swallow, Ravage, Leap Attack, Bash and monsters with Pierce 2-4 among others. To balance it out, the CK gave heroes equally good things: Steelhorns, Silhouette, Lindel and other heroes who offer crazy abilities and feats that give the OL a headache. Like any set, It has its duds though. I mean... What were they thinking when they designed Eliam anyway? Why is Ispher a 'healer' class? What makes Lyssa a mage? Are these accurate from 1ED, or did they just have an overabundance of scouts and warriors? In any case, they simply provide more options and more tools for both sides, and while they look really good and seem better than the base set heroes/monsters, they're simply more choices, and choice is good.

When I play with my group I play to give them a challenge so you won't find me using zombies much or exploiting or over using certain combinations to win all the time (doesnt mean i wont sneak it in from time to time either). So if CK has its zombie style and really good monsters like sorcerers I won't constantly use them against my heroes (not saying you do either). In a lot of battle reports i read people abusing certain combinations constantly which is why things get errata. (And sometimes a poorly wrote rule).

My advice if anybody finds a fun maybe powerful combination don't show people on Internet or it will get nerfed to death. Though I enjoy reading them its just frustrating to see so much errata all the time. I used to get White Dwarf Magazine in the mail all the time when i was younger my favorite parts in mag. Was the battle reports from Warhammer and 40k. Hated it when there wasn't one!

Good game Kunzite!

All I can think of now is Ariad and a bottle of Sunny Delight - Unleash the power of the sun!

First of all , congrats to Kunzite! Evil wins, Good is dumb, and the power of the Sun is yours to command - Vae Victis.

*sets a jug of OJ on her lap while listening to the interesting debate* Cheers.

Wouldn't say good is dumb, just... *thinks* tasty? They should be happy I wasn't the big spider. But thinking back, the largeness of the monster would have been in the way. Ariad herself didn't do much aside from roll mad defiance. Rolling black black gray gray made it really easy avoiding death kills. A few times is was flat out funny. I got REALLY lucky on that. I can't roll an attribute test to save my life, but I can defend!

But silliness aside, you both have great points and should take a little thought. I guess that is the beauty of the mini campaigns these rumors are offering. With Valyndra it's about getting the loot and running like you are on fire (which you might be by that time). I'll try to dig up the rules on the mini campaign.

As far as CK combos, I have tripped up on one or two by accident. Ferrox and Shades are almost the same beast, just one has different health and rolls different dice. I played both of those in Tipping the Scales. I did not realize how stupid they are together and most likely will not play them in the same encounter again. I would just imagen it would be like having Chaos Beasts and Sorcerers in the same encounter. I would never do that!

Silverhelm: There are a few "lame" beasts, like Razor Wings. They are kind of like the Zombies of the CK. But we must forgive them. They have been sealed away for a long time and their wings are still a bit stiff.

I love to hear the stories as well. ^.^ We ought to trade stories at some point.

Inspector Jee, your deductions are worthy of your title.

Thank you!

The Trollfens expansion addresses some of these issues indirectly. The new healer, The Prophet , has this bouncing insight token that pin-balls around the heroes and can heal them all for 1-2 hearts per turn, anywhere on the map regardless of light-of-sight (we called it the Dancing Cognitive Ball of Awesome or DCBA ). If I didn't down the healer, then he could raise practically the whole party up in a single turn. While its true that I still got the cards for downing them - and they didn't have a lot of health when they got up - killing them simply wasn't eating enough of their actions to prevent them from making steady progress through encounters. I had to change tactics and go for a direct fatigue burn / immobilization strat. I tried an unorthodox half Punisher , half Saboteur build and its going ok so far. I have 2 relics, 2 quest reward overlord cards, and none of my lieutenants are dead yet. Party on.

The new Reinforce seems somewhat contingent on the Master Monster for a given group being alive. Course, if you have Splig ...

Yeah, some of the the Heroes from the CK seem arbitrarily designated, archetype wise. D1 didn't have healers - it was all just fighter, rogue, mage. They had to take some liberties in the name of balance. Isphur could be some kinda spirit walker. Lyssa .... thats a weird one, for sure. She's sitting on a rock - Geomancer ? Every time I see Eliam , I want to build a strat around him so bad, just to see if it can be done. I dunno even know where to start - maybe he'd be good as a Beast Master or something. I need to think on this.

Jee

As far as CK combos, I have tripped up on one or two by accident. Ferrox and Shades are almost the same beast, just one has different health and rolls different dice. I played both of those in Tipping the Scales. I did not realize how stupid they are together and most likely will not play them in the same encounter again. I would just imagen it would be like having Chaos Beasts and Sorcerers in the same encounter. I would never do that!

Was it stupid nasty in the OL's favor or redundant stupid, putting the OL at a disadvantage?

-Cursain