I appreciate your candor, my friend. I must admit that I am not dogmatic in the view that the Star Wars or even Tolkien's epic story has a direct relationship to WWI, the 'Cold War' or otherwise. I am more in thinking on the lines of Maelora on this.

The appreciation is mutual, I assure you. In the end, this is a forum designed to help us contribute toward a game system and setting that we love; there's zero need to attack anyone, not when we're working toward the same goal: helping FFG to create the best game possible.

You, personally, don't have to believe the average Soviet soldier is a bloodthirsty killer, or that the Soviet Union could occupy the United States in the next five years. (We don't, either.) THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a fantasy roleplaying game in the true sense of the word; its fantasy is the right-wing nightmare that America is delivered into the hands of her enemies.

Am I the only person here who finds the premise of this game totally insane?

It's almost bordering on a parody, a kind of bizarre right-wing hate fantasy. It's borderline FATAL or what was that other one a few years ago where you played 'white warriors' and the 'monsters' of the setting were homosexuals, black people, jewish people, etc? (Heck, I hate Communism, but the ludicrous portrayal of them in this game just made me feel sorry for them!)

And for the record, I'm broadly centre-right. I know full well what happens to people of my sexual persuasion outside of western democracies. I'm pro-USA, pro-right-to-bear-arms, anti-dictatorships. I play the SW universe fairly straight as regards mood, with the Alliance as the good guys and the Imperials as the bad guys (though I like shades of grey too, so it's possible to have a few 'bad' Rebels or well-meaning Imperials).

Why do you hate Communism? (I know, entirely off topic, but if you wouldn't mind talking in PM, that'd be cool) Also, I'm surprised you're centre-right, never known a non-straight person in my years that wasn't a centrist or left wing.

Apologies for the off-topic response, just curious, to be honest (since I'm fairly solidly left-wing, but I don't hate right-wing ideology, I just think it doesn't provide the greatest good for the people).

ON TOPIC

I can see where the real-world can be used in Star Wars to make a point, I find it interesting, for instance, that the Empire, in the modern day, could probably have more in relation to the US as much as any other country, with the whole 'War on Terror' thing, and using current events in-games to make it hit home a bit more is obviously an option, but yea... generally speaking, fantasy is better off when it is kept separate from the real world, especially when its intention is escapism.

It is interesting when people don't play to our preconceived and prejudiced notions. It is refreshing to read about. For me, it depends on the issue. I've been accused of being both a right-wing nutjob and as a liberal, though not a progressive liberal...that's a different beast altogether...but I digress...and there is still yet plenty of time...ahem...

For those interested, I found a rather insightful review of this game, The Price of Freedom, HERE . Enjoy!

It is interesting when people don't play to our preconceived and prejudiced notions. It is refreshing to read about. For me, it depends on the issue. I've been accused of being both a right-wing nutjob and as a liberal, though not a progressive liberal...that's a different beast altogether...but I digress...and there is still yet plenty of time...ahem...

For those interested, I found a rather insightful review of this game, The Price of Freedom, HERE . Enjoy!

Liberalism isn't the left wing, though. It might be in America, but that's because America doesn't have a left wing objectively, just far right and centre-right.

I think that right and left wing, conservative and liberal mean something different to most people in the Union than it does to say, Europeans.

I appreciate your candor, my friend. I must admit that I am not dogmatic in the view that the Star Wars or even Tolkien's epic story has a direct relationship to WWI, the 'Cold War' or otherwise. I am more in thinking on the lines of Maelora on this.

Tolkien especially hated allegory. I mean, his stories clearly drew heavily from his own personal war experiences, but he didn't want the orcs to be Nazis, the eagles weren't planes, etc. He clearly stated that the One Ring wasn't the atom bomb, it was 'every bad thing ever made by men, ever'.

While I can see the WW2 references (it is an iconic conflict, obviously, with cool guns and planes!) I feel Star Wars and LotR encompass more than that. WW2 is a starting point for me, not the end.

I think that right and left wing, conservative and liberal mean something different to most people in the Union than it does to say, Europeans.

Going by academics, the way the US identifies liberalism as left wing is incorrect, however. It is amusing seeing how the Democrats get called 'left-wing', when I've got a degree in the subject that shows they're anything but.

Why do you hate Communism? (I know, entirely off topic, but if you wouldn't mind talking in PM, that'd be cool) Also, I'm surprised you're centre-right, never known a non-straight person in my years that wasn't a centrist or left wing.

I don't hate the concept or the ideal. I hate the reality. Dictatorships of every stripe are not very accommodating to people like me. My politics are all over the places anyway, I'm anti-royals, anti-bloodsports, pro-choice, pro-military, pro-law&order, pro-homosexual rights, anti-dictatorships. But I'm a Brit, and our Left has sold us out a bit down the years.

And there's plenty of homosexual centrist or centre-right commentators, from Andrew Sullivan to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or Tammy Bruce. There are 12 openly homosexual Conservative politicians in the UK government as we speak. Quite a few of us in fact appreciate the protections we receive in secular western democracies.

(Ugh, how come I can type 'homosexual' but not the g-word???)

I think that right and left wing, conservative and liberal mean something different to most people in the Union than it does to say, Europeans.

Going by academics, the way the US identifies liberalism as left wing is incorrect, however. It is amusing seeing how the Democrats get called 'left-wing', when I've got a degree in the subject that shows they're anything but.

Roger that. I would write that at least for the leadership of the DNC, they are anything but classic liberals. Heck, I might even vote for them if they were.

I'm anti-royals, anti-bloodsports, pro-choice, pro-military, pro-law&order, pro-homosexual rights, anti-dictatorships. But I'm a Brit, and our Left has sold us out a bit down the years.

Though I am a royalist, I'm also very pro-military (obviously), pro-civil rights, and think that were sold out under the Labour party.

For those interested, I found a rather insightful review of this game, The Price of Freedom, HERE . Enjoy!

I've been roleplaying since I was a girl, but I rarely agree with Grognardia. That said, even when I disagree, I find his stuff insightful.

Thanks also for the civil debate, angelicdoctor. I get the feeling we wouldn't see eye to eye on much, but I appreciate your tone and willingness to debate.

Though I am a royalist, I'm also very pro-military (obviously), pro-civil rights, and think that were sold out under the Labour party.

You wouldn't believe the arguments I've had with my lefty friends, who can't contemplate how someone like me finds guns and planes to be cool

For those interested, I found a rather insightful review of this game, The Price of Freedom, HERE . Enjoy!

I've been roleplaying since I was a girl, but I rarely agree with Grognardia. That said, even when I disagree, I find his stuff insightful.

Thanks also for the civil debate, angelicdoctor. I get the feeling we wouldn't see eye to eye on much, but I appreciate your tone and willingness to debate.

Much appreciated, Maelora. The gratitude goes both ways.

For those interested, I found a rather insightful review of this game, The Price of Freedom, HERE . Enjoy!

Having read the review, it seems fairly clear (it's by the same guy who did 'Paranoia') that 'Price of Freedom' was intended to be a flat-out parody... Like South Park, only a decade earlier. That it came out in the glasnost post-coldwar era likely reinforces this.

Which probably doesn't do wonders for Erik's glowing reference for it... unless he really is the clever satirist I'm beginning to think he is...!

Oh my gosh...! 'Price of Freedom' apparently had a single supplement, called 'Your Own Private Idaho'...

... which is the title of a campy B52's song and a film by Gus van Sant about homosexuals.

It's a parody, people. A clever one, but 100% a parody of things like 'Red Dawn'.

You wouldn't believe the arguments I've had with my lefty friends, who can't contemplate how someone like me finds guns and planes to be cool

You sound like a girl I went through basic with. She had similar views - from what I can tell of yours - but was as big a gun nut as any of the lads from my regiment (Rifles). It helped, of course, that she was an excellent shot, and could take apart, clean, and re-mantle her rifle at a very enviable speed.

For those interested, I found a rather insightful review of this game, The Price of Freedom, HERE . Enjoy!

Having read the review, it seems fairly clear (it's by the same guy who did 'Paranoia') that 'Price of Freedom' was intended to be a flat-out parody... Like South Park, only a decade earlier. That it came out in the glasnost post-coldwar era likely reinforces this.

Which probably doesn't do wonders for Erik's glowing reference for it... unless he really is the clever satirist I'm beginning to think he is...!

I found that to be consistent with my impression as well.

As for ErikB, I have no comments at this time except for this, I find him to be an interesting forum poster. The reactions to his posts have varied wildly from dispassionate to the downright hostile. Some of his entries, I can appreciate and others not so much. But then again, much the same can be written concerning any of the other members and like Shakespearian_Soldier wrote, the purpose of this forum is not about any particular forum member, it is about helping FFG to create the best game possible. Thus do I think that the entry of this topic can be and has been made relevent.

.

For those interested, I found a rather insightful review of this game, The Price of Freedom, HERE . Enjoy!

Having read the review, it seems fairly clear (it's by the same guy who did 'Paranoia') that 'Price of Freedom' was intended to be a flat-out parody... Like South Park, only a decade earlier. That it came out in the glasnost post-coldwar era likely reinforces this.

Which probably doesn't do wonders for Erik's glowing reference for it... unless he really is the clever satirist I'm beginning to think he is...!

I found that to be consistent with my impression as well.

As for ErikB, I have no comments at this time except for this, I find him to be an interesting forum poster. The reactions to his posts have varied wildly from dispassionate to the downright hostile. Some of his entries, I can appreciate and others not so much. But then again, much the same can be written concerning any of the other members and like Shakespearian_Soldier wrote, the purpose of this forum is not about any particular forum member, it is about helping FFG to create the best game possible. Thus do I think that the entry of this topic can be and has been made relevant.

I agree. I don't 'ignore' anyone if I can help it. I'm happy to be exposed to views I disagree with, and to debate as long as it's civil.

I just find his hectoring tone off-putting, which is odd because we're likely on the same page when it comes to SW.

Oh, I think I am in the hostile camp... I know I shouldn't do that though.

Thing is, I am smiling a lot while I am typing it out and it is not meaned to be hostile...

I agree. I don't 'ignore' anyone if I can help it. I'm happy to be exposed to views I disagree with, and to debate as long as it's civil.

Ditto.

Why do you hate Communism? (I know, entirely off topic, but if you wouldn't mind talking in PM, that'd be cool) Also, I'm surprised you're centre-right, never known a non-straight person in my years that wasn't a centrist or left wing.

I don't hate the concept or the ideal. I hate the reality. Dictatorships of every stripe are not very accommodating to people like me. My politics are all over the places anyway, I'm anti-royals, anti-bloodsports, pro-choice, pro-military, pro-law&order, pro-homosexual rights, anti-dictatorships. But I'm a Brit, and our Left has sold us out a bit down the years.

And there's plenty of homosexual centrist or centre-right commentators, from Andrew Sullivan to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or Tammy Bruce. There are 12 openly homosexual Conservative politicians in the UK government as we speak. Quite a few of us in fact appreciate the protections we receive in secular western democracies.

(Ugh, how come I can type 'homosexual' but not the g-word???)

I could go all 'no true scotsman' and point out that none of the current or past Communist regimes have been anything close to actual Communism, which is true, because true Communism can't just be adopted, it has to be developed towards in a post-capitalist future. It's more an evolution or transcendence than a political view you can just use.

I'm pro-Royals, anti-bloodsports, pro-choice, anti-military, pro-criminal rehabilitation rather than segregation, pro-equality, pro-proportional representation, pro-EU, etc. Labour aren't left-wing, haven't been since the early 90s, and I think the Conservatives have done more to make life worse for the average working person in this Government than anyone since Thatcher. The only bits I really support from the current Government are the bits the Lib Dems made them adopt, like raising the personal allowance in income tax to £10,000, and last year they said it should be that the entire minimum wage should be exempt from tax.

I just disagree with the general selfishness and lack of empathy for those less well off that comes from most Conservative politicians.

And the worst bit is I feel really bad, because I voted Conservative last time just because I didn't like my local Labour MP. Makes me feel dirty that I compromised my beliefs to do that (which I wouldn't have had to had we got an electoral system worthy of being called a democracy).

Can I end by saying that I really, really hate bringing real-world issues into Star Wars?

Believe it not, so do I.

I am, however, much, much more comfortable pretending to shoot at space nazis than I am pretending to BE space Al-Qaeda.

Indeed if you think of much of my posting as F*CK YOU I AM PLAYING THE LAST ALLIANCE OF ELVES AND MEN FIGHTING SAURON NOT F*CKING SPACE TERRORISTS!!!1111!!!!! you won't go far wrong.

That the Empire are bad news is surely obvious to anyone who has ever been to school or watched a movie or turned on a television. How much less subtle do you want their badness to be? They are not good role models for anyone!

I am also British, think of having guns around the house in much the same way as I think of having a tiger around the house (it'd be kinda cool, but I I'd be worried it would eat the neighbours children, so on balance no) and think the NHS is the best thing in the world.

And the Price of Freedom?

I wouldn't say it is a parody exactly. It isn't exactly taking the piss out of the views presented. Star Wars isn't a parody. It isn't like it is an intentional political screed but I suspect Lucas probably broadly agreed with its messages (I mean, I kinda hope he did given how much of it I have clearly swallowed) but hes... what exactly? Exaggerating for effect? Riffing on a theme? Telling a story? Building a myth?

Maybe I find The Price of Freedom to be a pleasing myth in the same way I think Star Wars is a pleasing myth, and I think the authors did as well. I don't think they are trying to convince anyone of anything certainly.

Plus I have played a lot of violent power fantasy games (video and tabletop) over the years, and I like the argument that the game presents that that doesn't make me a bad person.

--

In closing, if I think you are even vaguely hinting at suggesting that Luke Skywalker is a terrorist I will do my best to f*ck up your sh*t because that really impinges on my fun. And if FFG and Disney are smart, so will they.

And the worst bit is I feel really bad, because I voted Conservative last time just because I didn't like my local Labour MP. Makes me feel dirty that I compromised my beliefs to do that (which I wouldn't have had to had we got an electoral system worthy of being called a democracy).

Agree they're mostly as bad as each other. The Tories just do what I expect though. The Left deliberately sold us out to their favourite right-wing religion, so I don't like them much.

Heck, I've only ever voted Plaid Cymru, on a purely nationalist level, even though I don't agree with any of their policies.

Believe it not, so do I.

Soooo.... why d'you do it all the time then? <genuinely trying to understand>

>Indeed if you think of much of my posting as F*CK YOU I AM PLAYING THE LAST ALLIANCE OF ELVES AND MEN FIGHTING SAURON NOT F*CKING SPACE TERRORISTS!!!1111!!!!! you won't go far wrong.

All those capitals and swearing really makes for a great point. I'm convinced...

>That the Empire are bad news is surely obvious to anyone who has ever been to school or watched a movie or turned on a television. How much less subtle do you want their badness to be? They are not good role models for anyone!

Yes, that's the default. But are 100% of them? In your game, yes, and that's fine. But we're having an Imperial civil war where there are four factions, one of which is broadly Lawful Neutral and another is pro-alien under Thrawn.

If other players want the Empire to be something other than cartoonish villains, that's up to them. Let's all enjoy the game we want to play.

>I wouldn't say it is a parody exactly. It isn't exactly taking the piss out of the views presented.

??? C'mon, dude. It's by the guy who made 'Paranoia'. It has Bill Cosby, Bruce Springsteen and Olivia Newton-John on the front. It has a supplement named after a camp song and a g*y movie. It's a stealth parody. All those ridiculous passages about the cartoonishly evil soviets beating up little old ladies in wheelchairs and the prom queen. It's a mickey take of extreme right-wingers, and the crazy paranoia some felt at the end of the Cold War.

And that's from someone who is no lily-livered-liberal, trust me. I'm notably passionate in my defence of the West as the good guys, but I know a parody when I see one. It's 'Team America: The Role-Playing Game'.

(please, please tell me you realise 'Team America' is a parody!)

Now Star Wars, that's not a parody at all. It's a classic yarn, expertly remade for a new audience.

>Plus I have played a lot of violent power fantasy games (video and tabletop) over the years, and I like the argument that the game presents that that doesn't make me a bad person.

Nobody is saying it is. I've known lots of decent people who play violent games. Me, I like stuff like Mass Effect or Fallout, but thats' personal choice.

But _you_ seem to be saying that players who like the Empire are bad people. No?

>In closing, if I think you are even vaguely hinting at suggesting that Luke Skywalker is a terrorist I will do my best to f*ck up your sh*t because that really impinges on my fun.

How does what anyone else does in their games 'impinge on your fun'?

In my games, poor old Luke is lining a womp rat nest, so the Death Star is still with us as he never blew it up.

Are you still going to do my best to f*ck up your sh*t...

Whatever that means?

In closing, if I think you are even vaguely hinting at suggesting that Luke Skywalker is a terrorist I will do my best to f*ck up your sh*t because that really impinges on my fun. And if FFG and Disney are smart, so will they.