Combat timing question:

1) Cave-Troll attacks an ally.

2) For a shadow card I draw Undisturbed Bones, which has the following shadow effect: "If the defending character is an ally, discard it from play."

3) I discard the defending ally.

??? 4) I play Valiant Sacrifice, which lets me draw 2 cards. One of those cards is Brok Ironfist, which has the text: "Response: After a Dwarf hero you control leaves play, put Brok
Ironfist into play from your hand."

5) Apply the Cave-Troll's 6 attack against Gloin, which kills him.

6) Put Brok Ironfist into play.

----

The question is: do I have a chance to play Valiant Sacrifice between the resolving of the Cave-Troll's shadow effect (step 3) and the application of the Cave-Troll's undefended damage (step 5)?

I know I have a chance to play cards between the revealing and resolving of a shadow effect, since there is at least one card (Hasty Stroke) that let us cancel shadow effects. However, the ally doesn't leave play until the resolving, so the timing is different than the timing used for Hasty Stroke.

After an ally is removed, Horn of Gondor's response triggers immediately, correct? Does the fact that there is a "pause in the action" to allow Horn of Gondor and other cards' responses to trigger mean that we are in a "player actions" step and therefore have a chance to play cards as well? Or can responses sometimes trigger outside of a "player actions" step?

1. Short answer:

Yes, you have played it right.

Had you drawn another copy of Valiant Sacrifice via the first one, you could even play that as well.

However, some of your rationale is incorrect.

2.

I know I have a chance to play cards between the revealing and resolving of a shadow effect, since there is at least one card (Hasty Stroke) that let us cancel shadow effects. However, the ally doesn't leave play until the resolving, so the timing is different than the timing used for Hasty Stroke.

This is incorrect assumption.

There are 2 major things to consider while playing/activating card effect.

1) Card Type

Unless another card effect allows it (such as Vilya, Kili/Fili, Very Good Tale), you may only play allies and attachments during planning phase.

2) Type of Effect

Actions may be triggered almost anytime at the beginning or end of phase, or after each step of each phase.

Response can only be triggered when certain conditions are met.

Shadow card part of combat is NOT two part steps, but rather one step; you reveal AND resolve shadow card - that's only ONE step.

Therefore normally you would not be able to play an Action during revealing and resolving shadow card (since it is one interruptable step), however Valiant Sacrifce and Hasty Stroke are RESPONSE effects, not action; therefore it is legal to play those cards as soon as the conditions are met.

3. There is a window to play Actions after completely resolving Shadow Effect and before assigning Combat Damage, so you could've played an action after your ally was discarded via shadow effect and before Hill Troll took out your Gloin.

4. Horn of Gondor's response effect does NOT trigger immediately after the character leaves play; it triggers AFTER any FORCED effects that must be triggered via character leaving play (if any) and then first player gets to decide which responses that trigger off character leaving play in any order they choose (so you could choose to get a resource from Horn of Gondor then play Valiant Sacrifice, or choose to play Valiant Sacrifice first then get resource from Horn of Gondor).

5. Triggering of Response effects does not open an action window. You may play as many relevent responses as you wish (play -> resolve, then play -> resolve, not play all at once then resolve all at once), but you may not trigger any Actions if said responses were triggered during Staging Step of quest phase or Reveal & Resolve Shadow effect of combat phase.

Thanks for the clarification.

Shadow card part of combat is NOT two part steps, but rather one step; you reveal AND resolve shadow card - that's only ONE step.

Therefore normally you would not be able to play an Action during revealing and resolving shadow card (since it is one interruptable step), however Valiant Sacrifce and Hasty Stroke are RESPONSE effects, not action; therefore it is legal to play those cards as soon as the conditions are met.

I think this is the key part. Both Valiant Sacrifice and Brok Ironfist had "Response" actions, which is why they were allowed to be played in the middle of the [atomic] shadow card step. I could not have played, say, a healing effect or Sneak Attack at that time. Correct?

3. There is a window to play Actions after completely resolving Shadow Effect and before assigning Combat Damage, so you could've played an action after your ally was discarded via shadow effect and before Hill Troll took out your Gloin.

Okay, so I could have still played Sneak Attack after the ally was killed and before Gloin was killed. Not that Sneak Attack would do any good. (I'm just using it as an example of an event card without a Response).

Out of curiosity, are there any event cards that can either reduce undefended damage (6 from the troll) or boost hero hit points (Gloin only had 4)? Or was Gloin a goner (seeing that I didn't want to get rid of Dain or Bifur)?

Out of curiosity, are there any event cards that can either reduce undefended damage (6 from the troll) or boost hero hit points (Gloin only had 4)? Or was Gloin a goner (seeing that I didn't want to get rid of Dain or Bifur)?

Gloin is a goner, unless he happened to have Steward of Gondor attached and someone could play two copies of the tactics event "Gondorian Discipline" (from Encounter at Amon Din) which reads: "Response: Cancel up to 2 points of damage just dealt to a Gondor character"

Well in the case of Gloin, Durin´s Song X 2 could also have saved him.

4. Horn of Gondor's response effect does NOT trigger immediately after the character leaves play; it triggers AFTER any FORCED effects that must be triggered via character leaving play (if any) and then first player gets to decide which responses that trigger off character leaving play in any order they choose (so you could choose to get a resource from Horn of Gondor then play Valiant Sacrifice, or choose to play Valiant Sacrifice first then get resource from Horn of Gondor).

Well if you wanna get real technical Horn of Gondor triggers after any PASSIVE as well as any FORCED effects

Where are the official timing rules spelled out the most clearly?

After any type of event the order of resolution is:

passive effects --> forced effects --> responses --> actions

In the case of multiple effects of the same nature resolving simultaniously, the first player decides the priority.

In which document is that defined? On what page?

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?showtopic=67639

Alright now... The rules say that "...This is done by

subtracting the defense strength of the defending

character from the attack strength of the attacking

enemy. The remaining value is the amount of damage

that must immediately be dealt to the defending

character, possibly destroying that character (see

“Hit Points and Damage,” page 20)."

And page 20 says, "Any time one of these cards has 0 hit points, it is

immediately defeated."

But you are saying there is an action window between combat damage assignment and discarding the character. If so then Self Preservation becomes significant.

Looking through the available materials I don't see that such an action window exists.

But you are saying there is an action window between combat damage assignment and discarding the character. If so then Self Preservation becomes significant.

Looking through the available materials I don't see that such an action window exists.

Who is saying this?

Having window of action inbetween each step of combat phase (deal shadow -> action -> choose enemy -> action -> choose/declare defender if any -> action -> reveal&resolve shadow -> action -> determine combat damage & assign damage -> action -> choose enemy -> action ....... ) does not mean you can deal damage and activate healing effect before discarding character.

Out of curiosity, are there any event cards that can either reduce undefended damage (6 from the troll) or boost hero hit points (Gloin only had 4)? Or was Gloin a goner (seeing that I didn't want to get rid of Dain or Bifur)?

Gloin is a goner, unless he happened to have Steward of Gondor attached and someone could play two copies of the tactics event "Gondorian Discipline" (from Encounter at Amon Din) which reads: "Response: Cancel up to 2 points of damage just dealt to a Gondor character"

This is what confused me. As you have been saying , (and as I have been playing) there is no window to play Gondorian Discipline. And as a general comment on the card, it only works if less than lethal damage has been assigned.

I think you forgot the fact Gondorian Discipline is a response, not action.

Repeating myself, response can be played whenever trigger effect is met (but after resolving any passive or forced effects that trigger off the same situation), even during times when action is not allowed.

Alright now... The rules say that "...This is done by

subtracting the defense strength of the defending

character from the attack strength of the attacking

enemy. The remaining value is the amount of damage

that must immediately be dealt to the defending

character, possibly destroying that character (see

“Hit Points and Damage,” page 20)."

And page 20 says, "Any time one of these cards has 0 hit points, it is

immediately defeated."

But you are saying there is an action window between combat damage assignment and discarding the character. If so then Self Preservation becomes significant.

Looking through the available materials I don't see that such an action window exists.

There is no action window between damage assignment and discarding the character.

However each enemy attack consists of 4 steps:

1) Choose an enemy

2) Declare defender

3) Resolve shadow effect

4) Determine combat damage

And at the top of the "resolve enemy attacks" part of the rules it clearly says: "When resolving enemy attacks, The players follow these 4 steps, in order. Players may play event cards and take actions at the end of each step"

Meaning that after a shadow card, with an effect that affects the attacking enemy´s attack value, you would still have a chance to play relevant events to save the character. Even though the bonus to the enemy attack is applied immediately, the effect of that bonus does not truly manifest itself untill the "determine combat damage" step.

If the shadow card said "deal 2 damage to defending character" or then you would get no such opportunity because this is something that happens immediately.